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Where did you actually hit with the first shot? This question still goes unanswered??
REMEMBER 9-11-01
~343~
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Sharpsman: Good post! 
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/X0n16mr.png) WWP53D
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OP
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Where did you actually hit with the first shot? This question still goes unanswered?? a hair to the right of the vertebrae at the neck shoulder junction; impacted bone, but didn't break it.
Hunting is not a matter of life or death. It is much more important than that.
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Joined: Jan 2007
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2007
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Where did you actually hit with the first shot? This question still goes unanswered?? a hair to the right of the vertebrae at the neck shoulder junction; impacted bone, but didn't break it. Ouch! 
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,825
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Are you saying that the bullet hit spine at 200 yards and did not break it?
Did it hit solidly enough that the bullet fragmented, or was it just a glancing blow and the bullet continued on its merry way?
Have a good day man. In honor of personal freedom and the open squirrel season, I think I'll go put a hole through dinner's head.
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Joined: Nov 2010
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Where you using a 168 target match or target hunting vld?
Don't fruit the beer!!!
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OP
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168 hunting vld.
don't know how much fragmentation there was - i found an exit hole of sorts in the right shoulder. it would seem the bullet rode down the ribcage and exited the shoulder...?
the second shot taken at extreme close range made the kill, but no bullet or fragment was recovered, and there was no exit wound. however, at -1� f and 20 mph wind at time of death, i didn't spend an extraordinary amount of time looking for that bullet, either. it could've completely fragmented, or it could be in the pile somewhere and i just never saw it.
the deer stretched the tape 142" on a 4x4 frame.
Hunting is not a matter of life or death. It is much more important than that.
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
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In my experience with teh 168's is that they do fragment inside the animal. Though they are not supposed to fragment until after a few inches of penetration, hitting hard bone may fragment the bullet faster. The bergers are great bullets for a broadside shot and they have never failed to turn vitals into jelly but, I have not hit a hard bone with them. After hearing your problem here, I may stop using them for hunting as well. Never know when I may make a bad shot and hit hard bone.
Don't fruit the beer!!!
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The first alarm bells should start going off when a claim is made that something will penetrate a few inches and then fragment.
A few inches of what?
I have read that in more than one place and it always makes my head spin. A few inches of soft tissue might work if that is a bit of hair, the skin, some meat between the ribs, and then an internal organ or two.
What happens if a rib bone, upper leg bone, or shoulder blade is hit? What does that "3 inches" become?
I don't want to be a wise guy, but a anyone making an unqualified statement (Spazz, I saw your qualification) claiming 3 inches of penetration before fragmentation is leaving out a whole passel of qualifiers. Kind of implies some sort of smart bullet...
I know Burgers are wonderful bullets and there is a whole long-range contingent that will swear by them, but it sounds to me like this is a classic case of trying to use a special purpose bullet in a general (read uncontrolled) hunting situation and the results were less than ideal.
Get a bullet with enough "azz" to hit a bone at close range and hunt with it. Stuff happens.
Have a good day man. In honor of personal freedom and the open squirrel season, I think I'll go put a hole through dinner's head.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,494 |
as to bone issues. I've shot a fair amount of pigs in the head with bergers. But I use the target version due to thicker jacket. These shots are not nearly as explosive results wise as a standard cup and core bullet typically is.
I'm not sure what this tells me or anyone else, but I certainly have never had a failure hitting bone in that instance.
I'm still a Barnes fan at heart because they'll do about anything you could ask of a bullet ever and not fail basically.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Jeff: Wow! I have not had that happen,nor seen it myself but folks who have had experiences like yours have told me the same,but with other bullets. It seems those necks are pretty tough on many BG animals.After that experience I can understand your fondness for the Barnes. Bob... I was amazed at the result. Totally amazed. Especially after reading abuot the holy grail of bullets and then using them. This in the early 80s....
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
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The first alarm bells should start going off when a claim is made that something will penetrate a few inches and then fragment.
A few inches of what?
I have read that in more than one place and it always makes my head spin. A few inches of soft tissue might work if that is a bit of hair, the skin, some meat between the ribs, and then an internal organ or two.
What happens if a rib bone, upper leg bone, or shoulder blade is hit? What does that "3 inches" become?
I don't want to be a wise guy, but a anyone making an unqualified statement (Spazz, I saw your qualification) claiming 3 inches of penetration before fragmentation is leaving out a whole passel of qualifiers. Kind of implies some sort of smart bullet...
I know Burgers are wonderful bullets and there is a whole long-range contingent that will swear by them, but it sounds to me like this is a classic case of trying to use a special purpose bullet in a general (read uncontrolled) hunting situation and the results were less than ideal.
Get a bullet with enough "azz" to hit a bone at close range and hunt with it. Stuff happens. Right from teh horses mouth. Take it for what it's worth. The Hunting bullet line is proving to be the most lethal big game hunting bullets available. All of our Hunting bullets are made in the VLD design. The VLD design incorporates a sharp nose that allows the bullet to penetrate 2� to 3� before it starts to expand. After the bullet starts to expand it will shed 40% to 85% of its weight as shrapnel into the surrounding tissue (internal organ). The combination between the shrapnel and the hydrostatic shock produces a massive wound cavity within the vital area (internal organs) that will be 13� to 15� long. This massive wound cavity results in the animal dropping fast since most go into shock after such a tremendous blow. Those animals that don�t go down immediately will soon succumb to blood pressure loss and/or organ failure producing a quick ethical kill. Our bullets don't poke through like an arrow (high weight retention, deep penetration bullets) but instead dump their energy where it is most effective, inside the animal. Using the Berger VLD will result in an animal that goes down fast so you can enjoy the results of your hunt without having to track the wounded animal after the shot. You owe it to yourself to see how accurate and deadly the Berger Hunting VLD will be on your next hunt. To order a free 30 minute video that provides more detail on the bullets, cartridge and velocity used to take several animals at a variety of ranges call I am sure different calibers, SD's, and loads will give different results. I have sent 168's through a scapula of a whitetail and the deer dropped like a rock. Seem to work as Berger's description states. Like I said, I have not had any issues with the VLD's. These are hunting bullets designed for big game. Though, I have no experience sending one through the spine of the shoulder or backbone to judge effectiveness.
Don't fruit the beer!!!
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Joined: Aug 2007
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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That's a lot more qualified and still not something I want for a general purpose hunting bullet.
Have a good day man. In honor of personal freedom and the open squirrel season, I think I'll go put a hole through dinner's head.
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Joined: Nov 2010
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Nov 2010
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That's a lot more qualified and still not something I want for a general purpose hunting bullet. After reading the OP I am also thinking of switching back to the TSX's. I would hate to make a bad shot into teh shoulder spine and have the animal run off wounded. I am confident it would work but, I certainly have doubts now. no doubts with a TSX, Accubond, etc.
Don't fruit the beer!!!
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Joined: Feb 2004
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
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i havent tried berger's but i know my TTSX's will not fail to penetrate so why switch Berger = Big Varmint Bullet IMHO TTSX, MRX, North Fork, Grand Slam, Partition, A-Frame, etc. = no worries about penetration IME
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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... VLD's. These are hunting bullets designed for big game. ... IMO they are just target bullets with a lot of marketing hype.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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... VLD's. These are hunting bullets designed for big game. ... IMO they are just target bullets with a lot of marketing hype. You are dead on CH
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900 |
The Hunting bullet line is proving to be the most lethal big game hunting bullets available. All of our Hunting bullets are made in the VLD design. The VLD design incorporates a sharp nose that allows the bullet to penetrate 2� to 3� before it starts to expand. After the bullet starts to expand it will shed 40% to 85% of its weight as shrapnel into the surrounding tissue (internal organ). The combination between the shrapnel and the hydrostatic shock produces a massive wound cavity within the vital area (internal organs) that will be 13� to 15� long. This massive wound cavity results in the animal dropping fast since most go into shock after such a tremendous blow. Those animals that don�t go down immediately will soon succumb to blood pressure loss and/or organ failure producing a quick ethical kill. Our bullets don't poke through like an arrow (high weight retention, deep penetration bullets) but instead dump their energy where it is most effective, inside the animal. Using the Berger VLD will result in an animal that goes down fast so you can enjoy the results of your hunt without having to track the wounded animal after the shot. You owe it to yourself to see how accurate and deadly the Berger Hunting VLD will be on your next hunt. To order a free 30 minute video that provides more detail on the bullets, cartridge and velocity used to take several animals at a variety of ranges call Uuhh............sorry, no.Not for me.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 8,787 Likes: 6
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 8,787 Likes: 6 |
The Hunting bullet line is proving to be the most lethal big game hunting bullets available. All of our Hunting bullets are made in the VLD design. The VLD design incorporates a sharp nose that allows the bullet to penetrate 2� to 3� before it starts to expand. After the bullet starts to expand it will shed 40% to 85% of its weight as shrapnel into the surrounding tissue (internal organ). The combination between the shrapnel and the hydrostatic shock produces a massive wound cavity within the vital area (internal organs) that will be 13� to 15� long. This massive wound cavity results in the animal dropping fast since most go into shock after such a tremendous blow. Those animals that don�t go down immediately will soon succumb to blood pressure loss and/or organ failure producing a quick ethical kill. Our bullets don't poke through like an arrow (high weight retention, deep penetration bullets) but instead dump their energy where it is most effective, inside the animal. Using the Berger VLD will result in an animal that goes down fast so you can enjoy the results of your hunt without having to track the wounded animal after the shot. You owe it to yourself to see how accurate and deadly the Berger Hunting VLD will be on your next hunt. To order a free 30 minute video that provides more detail on the bullets, cartridge and velocity used to take several animals at a variety of ranges call Uuhh............sorry, no.Not for me. Ding ding we have a winner. dave
![[Linked Image]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Logo_Schmidt_%26_Bender.jpg) Only accurate rifles are interesting.
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