Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Bowhunting So what are you guys afraid of?

There was a WI Conservation Congress Meeting Last night ( April 11) and the question was about allowing any one to use a crossbow to hunt deer with in WI Now only disabled and folks over 65 can. Needless to say it was voted down in my county 43 No and 2 Yes I was one of the Yes ones State wide the Vote was:
2,501 Yes
5,681 No

A guy in our local meeting made the assine statements that crossbows were only a weapon of war never a hunting weapon? Well DUH how about bows and guns both have been used as a weapon of war and the Engish Long bow Archers were pretty darn effective.
Another made the claim that deer could be shot at 100 yards with them Now anyone knowing that the crossbow is a 40 yards and under weapon no matter what the make or model would have to laugh at this stupid statement. Yea I suppose folks have tried as they have with bows also and a bow might have a better chance as the arrow is heavier to retain some energy with crossbows expecially the ones shooting a shorter arrow or bolt the energy drops off quicker at longer ranges but are effective under normal bow ranges.

Others said that the deer had a better chance with a bow as you had to draw it back therefore showing movement and giving the deer a chance well duh you have movement when you shoulder a crossbow or a gun.

Bottom line is fellas it shoots a arrow with a bow that is horizontal instead of vertical but still shoots a arrow or bolt if you wish but some of the new crossbows use arrows as the nocks are the same as regular arrows.

Some one said well it was unfair because a crossbow could use a scope yea so can bows along with red dots and very fancy pin and peep combinations with fiber optics and without.

Todays fancy compound bows with the really precise aiming systems and the use of releases that aid in the holding back the string with less fatigue along with bows with 80% let off put the newer bows and bow accessories right into the relm of the crossbow except for the stock and being already cocked. The accuracy is there the power is there and the ease of use is there so why the cry that the crossbow is a "evil" weapon and not right for every one/ Another said that if crossbows could be used than no one would use bows anymore well I kinda doubt that there will always be folks who perfer bows. SO what are you guys afraid of???

Oh by the way I have bow hunted for years and have been very successful at it. I switched to crossbow 2 years ago because I could be cause I have a class A disabled permit to hunt in WI. Having used both I cannot see what the big deal is as the crossbow is really no more effective than a bow is. They both have their plus'es and Minus'es but they still downrange act the same with folks that know how to shoot their choice or weapons. Some mistakenly think you cannot miss with a crossbow well wake up time folks you can miss with a crossbow for the same reasons you do with a bow!

I'm just starting this year too bow hunt.........was watching a hunting show and they were hunting havalinas with a draw lock bow...got me interested......found out you can use these during rifle season but not bow season......same with a cross bow.........I bought a compound bow with a 65% let off instead.....alot of fun.......as for what I'm afraid of? that's easy.......THE WIFE!!!!!

I don't have a problem with people hunting with crossbows as long as it's not during the special early archery season.

Originally early hunting seasons were started when "primitive" weapons could actually be considered primitive. However, now some compound bows are faster than most crossbows and muzzleloaders have the same performance as a .308 Winchester. So really most archers and Muzzle loaders have gotten away from primitive weapons like flintlocks, hawkens, recurves and longbows.

That being said, I think the crossbow is an interesting weapon as it does fire a bolt with a broadhead and kills the same way an arrow does. However, because it's held like a rifle and can be cocked and prepared for firing before the game is even sighted, it removes one of the biggest challenges from taking game with a bow and arrow. Also, despite crossbows having a similar velocity to an arrow, bolts are usually heavier thus having more KE and can certainly be fired lethally at a longer distance than most archers will attempt a shot on game with a compound bow.

Since many states have extended firearms season to last several months, maybe crossbow season should coincide with early muzzle loading season or maybe crossbows should have their own special season prior to firearms but after ML.

Your response is one of many that do not know crap about crossbows! I do not mean to be disrespectfull but I mean that. Crossbows are 40 yard weapons at the max. Crossbow bolts or arrows are the same spline as regular arrows only shorter and stiffer. I shoot a 2117 or a 2216 bolt/arrow in mine. When I used a bow I used a 2117 arrow. In fact I buy used arrows in good shape at rummage sales and make my crossbow bolts/arrows out of them. If you have ever shot a crossbow you will see just like a bow they shoot flatter at close range but as they get out in distance you have to make adjustments for elevation just like you do with a bow. Your comment about your bow challenges by drawing the bow does not cut it as a cross bow is moved too from the rest position to your shoulder so movement is also involved and every one talks about deer jumping the string well crossbows are a bit more noisier than a bow and harder to silence than a bow so actually the bow is more silent than the crossbow. Your comments about the arrows being heavier is not really true as they are shortened arrows which give them stiffer spline but as far as actual weight goes they are lighter as they are shorter which is one of the reasons they are not a longer range weapon.


Though I was a bow hunter now crossbow hunter it seems to me that bow hunters are the most selfish group in the world. They do not want any one to hunt during "their season" and even get ticked off when bird hunters share the same woods. They do not want rifle hunters to have early seasons like the T zone hunts in WI or Early Muzzle loader seasons. I am not bragging but I have killed lots of deer with a bow it is not that hard even being disabled now it still is not that difficult. So I see no reason why bow hunters should be upset about a other method of shooting a arrow same sport same rules apply same results only thing different is the bowhunters who want every thing there way. Ever hit a limb or a tree with either your bow or your arrow while hunting and mess up the shot? Well guess what that applys to crossbows too and they have a lot of the same challanges to over come as with a bow while hunting. I think that a lot of bow hunters need to educated them selves to what and what not a crossbow can and cannot do before passing judgement.

jh45gun, well said on both posts. Most of the complaints that arise from bow hunters concerning crossbows stem from lack of knowledge or from selfishness. One thing that you failed to mention. Carrying one through the woods is like dragging a pair of jumper cables. It will hang up on everything. miles

Like JH, I too now hunt with a crossbow because I have to, not because I want to. Having experience with both, I must say that the bow hunter has the advantage. Crossbows are almost impossible to stalk hunt with and difficult to sit in a stand with. Seems simple but try it sometime and you will see what I mean. The only advantage I have found is that they are easier for the inexperienced to shoot and require less practice to be good with. Might bring a few more hunters into the sport, which if you look at long term trends is a good thing. JMHO TM

Oh yeah, forgot to add. Alabama opened the archery season to crossbows this year with no restrictions and loads of bad press about wholesale slaughter of deer, masses of Bubba's in the field not knowing what to do, injured "good" archery hunters when the Bubbas shot long distance at anything that moved......... Guess what happened? Nothing. By the end of the season, you heard nothing else. No horror stories at all.

Kinda like the argument that must issue pistol permits will lead to an Old West mentality and people will die! Just does not happen. Same with crossbows. Problems just seem to never happen, once it is allowed. Will there be problems with a few people? Sure but no more than before. Because THERE IS NO REAL ADVANTAGE TO USING A CROSSBOW! Once people learn that, the uproar will die down. JMHO TM

Good points guys on the disadvantages of crossbows unfortunatly you know how it is folks only hear what they want to hear. Jim

IT'S ALL ABOUT MONEY! Manufactures and dealers want the Xgun legalized so they can line their pockets. They don't give a tinkers damn about what it might do to the sport of bowhunting.

If you've got a disabled permit then why and hell do you want EVERYBODY to shoot a crossbow??? Do you sell em jh45gun ??....me thinks so.

I'm tired of hearing this crap about bowhunters being selfish. That's a ploy I hear all the time from Xgun advocates. Im protecting my hard earned bow hunting season from scavengers... that's what I call em,... they don't give a damn about bowhunting... only the almighty $$$$$

Of course there is!

They have disadvantages, too, but their advantages are undeniable. I wouldn't want one, but then, I wouldn't want a compound bow, either.

A crossbow requires far less practice in order to become proficient in it's use. That is a HUGE advantage for most people, right there.

A crossbow totally does away with the drawing motion. Less motion is good. It is like a rifle in that regard. You wouldn't argue that a bow has an advantage over a rifle because it requires more motion, would you?

A powerful crossbow can be aimed, and aimed, and aimed and then fired ACCURATELY (without a case of the shakes), even if the shooter is a 98 pound computer programmer.

Having said all that, I have no problem with allowing the use of crossbows on a trial basis, during the regular bow season, by anyone who wants to use them (within common sense parameters). If it turns out that the deer heard is decimated because of them, then we can outlaw them at that point in time for good reason, but I won't condemn them until I see some actual, real world results that justify doing so.

In-line muzzleloaders are a horse of a different color, IMO.

Trying to save a season for you and people that hunt exactly like you do is not selfish? Has to be you way. miles

Spoken exactly like someone who has never had to hunt with one. I will give you that there are advantages, but the advantages far outweigh them. That is from experience, not what I think it would be like to hunt with one. Think not drawing a crossbow is a major advantage when deer are close? Try turning your bow sideways and see how well you can raise it with deer around. With a regular bow, you can usually lean behind a tree, bush,etc. to draw. If not, at least you have your body behind you to partially obscure the movement. "With a crossbow, it is sideways and creates a large horizontal movement when raised. From experience, I would guesstimate I get busted twice as much raising a crossbow, as I ever did drawing a regularbow.

Guess you could just always hold the crossbow up. yeah, if you looked like Arnold you might but it is not practical.

Also, try sitting in a stand with a crossbow cocked with 150 to 200 pounds of pressure. Where exactly do you hold it? There is no comfortable position I have ever found nor have any of the other crossbow hunters I have talked too. Not in to sitting, try carrying your regular bow sideways through the woods, cocked. As someone else said it catches on everything, again with 150 to 200 pounds of pressure on it. A real comfortable (not) way to hunt.

Also, as explained earlier, they do not shoot as far as a regular compound and in my experience are not quite as accurate. I will take shots to 40/45 yards with a compound but limit myself to no more than 35 with a crossbow. That is with an Excalibur, which is rated one of the most accurate in the game.

As for deer being decimated (which by the way means only 10% are killed) that is what everyone screamed about in Alabama before the season. But guess what? The world did not end and it appears no more deer than normal were killed. Guess that magic wand the crossbows are supposed to be just did not work to well in the dense Southern Air. Kinda reminds me of the howls in various States about the blood bath that would follow if must issue laws for pistols passed. Of course the results were just the opposite but why let actual experience get in the way of "known" facts.

Finally, yes, they are easier for the average Joe to shoot. If you read the numbers about declining hunters nationwide, I really do not see how getting a few more people in the sport is a bad thing. Especailly when some of those folks will find that a compound or traditional bow is more fun/accurate/easier to hunt with. I also read where more and more areas are being over populated with deer. Me thinks we could use more hunters but that is just me and I could be wrong.

As for crossbows, all I have is 5 years of actual experience to go on. I had the papers all along to allow me to hunt with one but spent $1375 last fall on a top of the line Mathews and accessories to try one last time to get away from carrying a crossbow. After just a few weeks, I had to let it go as my shoulders/back were killing me. But if I could, I would have dumped the crossbow in a heartbeat because it's disadvantages far outweigh any advantages it has. But that is just based on experience and probably does not compete with what you "know" to be true. TM

RWL99, Just curious what type wood you use to make your bow from, what animal sinew you use for string and what minereal for the heads. Or does "your" bowseason involve some other kind of bow? TM

Travelingman,

No need to get your panties in a knot, dude. Did you read my post in it's entirety? I'm not against the use of crossbows. Not even a little bit.

I felt that your statement claiming that "THERE IS NO REAL ADVANTAGE TO USING A CROSSBOW! " was misleading, so I called you on it. Don't take it so hard.


True. I have never HAD TO hunt with one, but I did hunt with one for several years, in my very non-politically-correct youth. For fun. Thought it was pretty cool. Never tried to kill a deer with it (Dad wouldn't have approved), but did manage to stack up the squirrels and cottontails. Even shot a coon with it, once.

Squirrel hunting, I would sit in one of my many carefully constructed, permanent ground blinds (had a lot of time on my hands). Always had a forked stick driven into the ground in front of me, inside the blind, to support the forend of the crossbow. Just had to make sure that it was pointed in a safe direction. (Feel free to try that for yourself, I never got a patent on it.)

We (the neighborhood kids and I) hunted with recurve bows, too, but the crossbow had it's advantages over the recurve in a blind, or so it seemed to me, at the time. It allowed me to easily shoot from a sitting position (via folding stool), which helped much with both concealment and comfort.

Cottontail hunting was most often a matter of following the beagles (we had 3) til they had one surrounded in a brush pile. We would jump on the pile to keep the little bugger moving around until someone could get a killing shot 'twixt the branches. Now there's the makings of a fine hunting video! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Good times.

The crossbow truly does suck for still hunting. No argument there. That's just not it's niche. But if the crossbow was as miserable and impractical to use as you make it sound, healthy young men wouldn't be buying them, using them, and calling it fun.


Thanks for taking the time to enlighten us, but your definition is a bit antiquated. It was the original meaning eons ago, but in common usage today, it refers to the killing of any large proportion of a group.

Definition of "decimate"

Have a good one.

Walker, Your right, I did have my panties in a wad over a salesman at work doing something I specifically told him not to do and then he goes ahead and does it and then tries to blame it on me. Really mad because we are down in Mexico with other meetings to attend and I will have to wait until we get back in the States to fully explain to him just how bad he screwed up. (He will be hitting the road) Replyed to you just after it came up and took a lot of my frustration out on you. No excuse, I was wrong. Just wanted to let you know why and give a sincere apology.

You might also note a little frustration, which I believe IS warranted, with people that give a knee jerk reaction about crossbows, when they have no experience. I did miss your suggestion for a trial, which is an excellent one. Alabama went whole hog, with a lot of folks kicking and screaming but I have not heard a thing since the season got underway. Makes me suspect there was not the issues people raved about but then I was pretty sure there would not be.

Since you did hunt small game with a crossbow, I am curious if you feel you took any more game by using a crossbow versus another type? That seems to be most peoples fear, that crossbow hunters will have some kind of unfair advantage. Having hunted with both, I still say it is harder to take a whitetail (at least in Alabama/Tennessee) where I hunt, with a crossbow. Not a lot harder but harder. Certainly not easier as most people seem to think. Wonder what your impression is?

The other fear seems to be that a bunch of outlaws will come into the sport. While possible, I have seen far more outlaws with guns, doing road hunting, spotlighting, etc... Bows of any type just do not seem to lend themselves to these type activities.

Ah well, now I have to go down and meet the Ahole salesguy and go on calls today. Again, I do aplogise for taking my frustrations out on you and the board and ask your forgiveness. TM

No I do not sell them! I just think that if some one wants to use one they should be able to. How would you like it if some group said you could not use your bows or guns or muzzle loaders???HUH you might have a different attitude too.
As far as the selfish remark goes if you keep hearing it maybe you ought to take that into consideration and figure there may be something to it! Like I said I have bow hunted for years I started in 1967 as a teenager. So there is nothing about bow hunting that I have not seen and I will say it again Many bow hunters do not want to share the woods with anyone and figure they own the woods. As a bow hunter that saddens me as it gives a lot of folks who are not like that a bad name for the actions of a few but very vocal group.

Good post travlingman1 and you hit the money on the disadvantages. Most folks who badmouth crossbows never have shot one or even held one but figure they are so deadly. As you stated a crossbow is a 40 yard and under weapon and not as accurate as some bows but it all depends on the user also. Crossbows are not just pick up and shoot the arrows have to be tuned to the xbow just like a regular bow as with the broadheads they need to be tuned also. Further more when you get done hunting you just cannot uncock it but have to discharge it to release the pressure. There are pros and cons with crossbows my attitude is if folks want to use them they should be able to with out some rival bow group peeing in the wind about it. Jim

[quote]RWL99, Just curious what type wood you use to make your bow from, what animal sinew you use for string and what minereal for the heads. Or does "your" bowseason involve some other kind of bow? TM [/quointe]




I don't know what that has to do with the price of beans but just to satisfy your curiosity, my bow is made of laminated wood and fiberglass 57#, 0% let off. My string is 450+, arrows are carbon and broadheads are stainless steel. I've bowhunted big game with a bow since 1955 and I've never owned a compound.

I have a friend that is handicapped and hunts with a crossbow. I've shot it and it is NOT limited to 40yd's. ANYONE could shoot a deer with that thing from 60yd's, and that includes my 90 year old mother.

Here in Michigan we have around 300,000 bowhunters that enjoy a two month season excluding the two week gun season in November. Out bow season was started in 1937 and it is steeped in history and tradition. Fred Bear was a charter member of the Michigan BowHunters which is our state bow hunting organazation founded in 1946

In 1994 we allowed disabled hunters to use a crossbow in the regular archery season. In 2002 we allowed crossbows to be used by anyone during the regular gun season. I served on the Ad Hoc committee that made that ruling at that time.

As I said before and I will repeat, the main reason there is such a big push to legalize crossbows in the regular archery season is the money to be made by the manufactures and dealers. They look at states like Michigan and Wisconsin with their high numbers of bowhunters and drool at the profits to be made if crossbows were brought into those states.

It is unadulterated greed, pure and simple that drives these people. They do not care what degenerating effects the crossbow may have on archery bowhunting. They know that it is human nature to think easier is better. Bow hunting was founded on the concept that, "we do this not because it is easy but because it is hard". That is the attraction to bowhunting,.... REAL bowhunting.

I'll admit that todays compound bow and their attached gadgets are not what our founders had in mind when they created a special season for archery. If there was any chance of restricting some of todays modern equiptment I would be all for it, but It will never happen. I see allowing crossbows into states like Michigan as the final straw and would be the end of bowhunting as we know it. So I will fight to the last breath in my body to keep that from happening.

jh45gun,

You USED to be a bowhunter, by your own admission you are now a crossgunner.

You may or may not sell cross bows we only have your word on that. Since you have a permit to use one, what is your beef? Why do you want to legalize them for EVERYBODY? Doesn't make sense to me, what's in it for you? Curious minds want to know....not that you'd tell us. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I'm glad you brought up the uncocking thing. A crossbow is carried around in the woods cocked, locked and ready to fire. All that needs to be done is to slip off the safety (which could very well happen accidently) I cringe at the thought of walking into my stand in the early pre dawn with my camo and no orange and haveing a crossbowman check me out through his scope pointing his cocked crossbow at me.

Crossbows are fine in the gun season or in bow season if you are disabled but otherwise ....NO

Most 150 lbs draw crossbows I'm familiar with use a 20-22 inch 2219 shaft that weights 13.7 grains per inch. This is 50-75 grains heavier than the arrows I'm using for my 27.5 inch draw bow.

Also, your crossbow might be quieter with a heavier bolt.

This website probably isn't the best one to get views opposite of yours as this is primarily a gun fanatic chat forum. Some of the websites dedicated to archery might give you a better debate.

Regards,
Sam

If you are that scared of the woods, maybe you should stay home. miles

Real smart come back there Miles....NOT!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

You need to work on your communication skills. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I think your own words just proved his point about bowhunters being selfish!

Please tell us what makes it YOUR season??? This is EXACTLY the selfishness he is talking about......you are afraid people using crossbows will somehow cut into YOUR season......you can deny selfishness all you want, but your words betray you!

Going Hunting, as Jay Leno would say Exactly!! To answer RWL's questions I have always been interested in Crossbows and I really do not see why bow hunters are so afraid of them taking over archery seasons as far as I am concerned Archery is Archery. Back way back when the traditionalist fought against compounds yet most use them today I do not see that happening with crossbows as they do not interest every one but for those who want to use them why not. The safetys on a crossbow are just as safe as the one on your 3006 or what ever you shoot. My crossbow shoots a 2216 (Reccomended) arrow but I can use 2117's also. Yea I can use a crossbow now and would have in the past if allowed as I think they are a interesting weapon and should not be discrimintated against.

RWL99, Well it is obvious you know all there is to know about bows and hunting and think that everyone should be limited to the type equipment you prefer to use. No advantage in fibreglass over natural wood and of course carbon arrows are no advantage over aluminum or wood. At least that is what you would have people believe by your posts.

You have more eloquently defended my positions by your previous posts, than anything I could ever say would so I will bow out and leave this to people like you that obviously know everything. Enjoy your life! TM

I thought that I communicated very well what I meant. miles

OK our bow season meaning archers, bow hunters. The special archery season was made for bows...not crossbows.

In 1946 in Michigan the Attorney General deemed crossbows as non archery weapons and therefore not to be used during the special archery season. That law still stands. I'm only defending what the law says is mine.

It has nothing to do with what you use,... wood selfbow, glass lamited recurve, compound bow, wood, aluminum, or carbon arrows.... ALL are legal to use during the special archery season. Crossbows in my state are not legal unless you have a hadicapped permit.

No one has disputed my claim that the crossbow movement is motivated by money....why?, because it's true.

JH45gun, In the first place traditionalist DID NOT fight against compounds! I know , because I worked in an archery shop in the late 60's and early 70's. Most accepted them with open arms because they make shooting a bow EASY !

In the second place archery is archery but a crossbow ain't a bow...Why?, because the Michigan Attorney General said it wasn't.

Travelingman,

First of all, no apology necessary, but I appreciate the gesture. No hard feelings here. Sounds like you had a hard day at the office. Don't they have a "happy hour" in Mexico where those kind of misunderstandings can be ironed out? Tequila is a great stress reliever, they tell me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


I would guess that might well be the case, but it's hard to say for sure. I know for a fact, though, that none of the species I hunted have become extinct.


If that is their fear, I have to say that I really don't understand that line of thinking. Are they afraid that there aren't enough deer to go around? Are they afraid that a crossbow hunter will get a certain "monster buck" before they can? Or is it just elitism, I wonder, ... like the fly fisherman who looks down his nose at the bait caster with his can o' worms?

Hunting is not a competitive sport, or at least it shouldn't be, IMO. Personally, I really enjoy shooting and hunting with a simple recurve bow. Not sure why, but that's the way it is, so that's what I use. I couldn't care less what anybody else uses, or whether they shoot more, or bigger deer. I don't believe it's any of my business. Keeping just myself happy is a
full-time job. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Since I've never hunted deer with a crossbow, you'd do well to take my opinion on this with a grain of salt. FWIW, here it is ....

First off, I would agree that toting a crossbow around in the woods is a pain in the arse. I've always thought they would make a great drag on a coyote set. For me, that's reason enough to leave it at home these days.

For those that don't mind all of that, I think the crossbow could be an ace in the hole, come the cold weather of the late archery season up here in the north country. Cold, stiff muscles and half-numb fingers would really appreciate such a contraption, I would think.

I sometimes wonder if marginally skilled archers wouldn't wound fewer deer if they used a crossbow instead of a traditional bow. The anti-crossbow crowd tends to promote the theory that more deer would be wounded with crossbows, but I have my doubts about that one.


Well, yeah, I can understand that (NOT!). Everyone knows crossbows are evil, just like those darned "assault rifles". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I sure can't argue with that. But, you know what?

The Ben Pearson Recurve Bow Movement was motivated by money, too, as was the
Fred Bear Compound Bow Movement, and the Duncan Yo-Yo Movement, etc., etc..

It's called capitalism, and I like it.

99 Traditionalist did so look down on the compound so your arguement is BS there maybe the guys in the bow shops did as it ment extra money as you are so worried about. SO you would take the meaning of a Att Gen who probably never hunted before????????? WI Att Gen Doyle NOW GOV DOYLE is one the the most anti gun liberal Democrats to come down the pike .Not all politicians are friendly to hunting or guns or other forms of hunting in fact some fit real well into the peta camp.

I have been accused of being an eliteist snob on another forum for stating that i didn't want modern inlines in a traditional season.
Same as crossbows in an archery season.
I have absolutely no problem if a disabled person wants to use any type of weapon to hunt with, even from a vehicle.
I do not think that crossbows should be allowed in an archery season, however, EXCEPT for a disabled person.

it has to do not so much with the traditional description of a bow, but with the attitude of those money grubbers that sell that stuff, and the attitude of the idjits that only want another tag and don't give a dam about anything else but bragging.
There are some other issues, but these are the main ones.
And before I get nailed with the "eletist snob " thing again,
let me infoprm all here that I have all typees of firearms and bows except for copmpounds and inlines, which I do not own , only because I don't want to. If that makes me an eletist snob, so be it. I will not appologize for it.

Catnthehat

How would you feel if they gave us crossbowers a four and a half month long season of our own? miles

Whatever.
I really don't think that there should be ANY special seasons!
That is what some people don't understand about me.
I was hunting with a muzzle loader and bow before any of the special seasons, and most of the people that call me stupid because I refuse to hunt with an inline or compound would not be doing it themselves unless they had these so-called "special " seasons.

That is my beef.
hunt with what you want, just don't tell me that I should consider someone else "special" , unless they are a challenged hunter.
That changes everything, to my way of thinking.
Catnthehat

When people get rich by not caring who and what they are hurting, I call that immoral greed, not capitalism,

You are right, in that a crossbow or bow, or muzzleloader would not be my first choice for deer. That said, I decided for myself that if I killed a doe last year, it would be with my crossbow. I watched doe all year that I could have killed legally with my rifle or muzzleloader. On new years day I killed a doe with the crossbow and posted in the bow forum. Gator1 took exception with that. If I had shot the doe with a rifle, I would have gotten a lot of "atta boys" and "way to go" and "congrats", but the bow crowd do think that their way is the only way. Most people that are not handicaped in some way, do not shoot a crossbow much because they are too unhandy. Nearly all go back to a regular or compound bow. I have arthritis in my shoulders and can not even hold a rifle up for long. Crossbows are legal in Arkansas for the entire bow season, and I have no problem with "ANYONE" using them. miles

Archery season here in Michigan is 2 1/2 months. Crossbows have their own season, it's called gunseason!

Big freaking deal.......as I recall, lots of the most learned scholars of the day claimed that the earth was flat.....and the jury said OJ wasn't guilty......doesn't make it true.........what credentials made the AG an expert worthy of deciding what is and isn't "archery weapons"??? Wonder if he knows anything about history and how long the crossbow has been around as an "archery weapon"???



So, what you are saying is that it's alright with you for people to use what they chose as long as it's legal???? Then I guess you don't have a problem with people using crossbows if the are made legal???? If you hadn't noticed, laws change all the time...... There is NOTHING primitive about fiberglass, compound bows, aluminum or carbon arrows or modern broadheads.......but you think they are alright because YOU say they are alright????? Who died and made you archery god???



I agree, but that has NOTHING to do with this discussion.......tell me, who is getting rich here??? The archery manufacturers???? You think Matthews, Bear, Person, Black Widow, Hoyt, Parker, Jennings, Shakespear BowTech....etc....haven't made a bundle off their bows??? How about Easton.....think they haven't done very well making aluminum arrow shafts???? Maybe you think Muzzy, NAP, etc are making broadheads just because they need something to do??? Guess it's alright for those guys to make money (get rich) in the industry but it's wrong for barnett or excalibur or horton to make money???? Maybe you are a mind reader??? Do you have a "sixth sense" that lets you know which companies are in it to get rich without "caring who and what they are hurting"???? Guess all the people that make equipment you use are in the business to make the world a better place????

Who and what, besides your silly "romantic" notion of how things should be, is being hurt by allowing crossbows in regular archery season???

Can you provide any evidence that allowing crossbows into regular archery season has caused any significant increase in the harvest of game???

Can you provide any evidence that allowing crossbows in the regular archery season has resulted in shortening or closing archery season???

Why don't you just admit that you don't like crossbows for selfish reasons.......and leave it at that........the other "reasons" you are proclaiming sure don't fly!!!

Not only do they not fly they don't even get off of the ground! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

RWL99,

Whom, or what, is being hurt? Does it hurt you in some way? If so, how? Not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand the rationale behind the anti-crossbow point of view.

Walker, You sound like the type guy I would enjoy sharing one of those Mexican libations with. Appreciate the understanding and also your commmets. Sadly, voices of reason stand little chance in an argument with people who already know everything. That is why I intend to sit the rest of this one out. :-) TM

I still don't understand the clamoring for crossbow hunter's to be considered archers and allowed to share the hunting season to those who use bows. Especially by those that have permits that already allow them to use crossbows during any season.

I have a great deal of respect for catnthehat as a person, shooter and a sportsman. He is a traditional hunter and a top notch guy. He and I agree about our objections to crossbows during early archery season but for different reasons.

I usually hunt in areas where hunting pressure is extremely high. I'm past the point of killing in quantities, I'm now focused on "quality" of the kill. Someone above said killing a deer is "easy" with any weapon and to some extent that is true if you are talking about yearlings or young bucks during their 1st of 2nd rut. However, if you are talking about killing a mature whitetail buck in his prime in a heavily hunted area, you are most likely hunting one of the toughest big game animals to harvest.

I hunt the same place every year and let many bucks go by hoping that they will some day sport a nice set of antlers. Most of these bucks are shot by hunters on the neighboring propeties and never get anywhere close to their prime. In this type of hunting I consider it to be somewhat competitive. Not because I'm trying to kill the 1st or the biggest buck but basically the supply and demand factor. There are only so many mature bucks in a small area and it pays to be the 1st one to have a crack at him. Also, my neighbors take off work for weeks to hunt and are in the woods almost every day where I might take of 1 or 2 days a season and hunt Saturday's only.

Where catnthehat still uses longbows, falling blocks and hawken style muzzle loaders. I use a very modern compound bow, an inline muzzle-loader and most of my deer rifles are bolt actions, have very good optics, premium bullets and capable of firing sub MOA. I'm not trying to judge people on how high/low tech their weapons are, I personally use what I feel is the most advanced allowed during a particular season.

As I have done since I was 12 when Virginia had their first month long early "special archery season", I hunt with a bow during archery season, a muzzle loader during muzzle loading season and a rifle during the rest of the season even when late Archery and ML seasons are in. I always hunt with the weapon that gives me the best chance of making the most accurate shot at a deer at the longest distance. The biggest deer I ever saw during muzzle loading season went by me at 50 yards when I had a bow in my hand, with a muzzle loader his meat would have been in my freezer and his head on my wall. I won't make that mistake again.

If crossbows were made legal for "archery". I would not be a "snob", I would be hunting with a crossbow because it is a superior weapon to a bow. I suspect many other hunters would do the same and I suspect many other rifle hunters would suddenly be hunting with crossbows to get a jump on the gun only hunters. I'm not I biologist so I won't try to comment on what I think several seasons of this would do to the deer heards but I do know that it would ruin my favorite season (archery) and most likely make rifle and muzzle-loading less enjoyable as the 4 weeks of mass quanities crossbowers in the woods disturbed and killed many deer prior to the first shot fired during opening morning of rifle season.

Like I said earlier, I don't have a moral objection to hunting with crossbows I just don't think it was what was intended when states created early archery seasons. While the compound bow was already being used and it's popularity was why archers were given the earlier season to begin with. If crossbows were given 4 early weeks I think bowhunters, muzzleloaders and gun hunters would all be on the losing end unless they decided to hunt with crossbows as well and then I still feel that hunting in October will never hold the same enjoyment as it once did for me personally.

Oh yeah, I think Hoyt, Mathews, BowTech and others would suddenly be into the crossbow business and be carrying fewer lines of bows with less R&D put into compounds. 10-Point, Horton, Parker and Jennings would be quite happy though. Who knows, maybe we would have Knight, Remington and Winchester crossbows someday or Barnes, Swift, Sierra, Federal, Norma and Lapua bolts.

I'll also add, that I think it sucks that my old county in Virginia added an additional 6 weeks of rifle season after the normal 2 weeks only that it was for the longest time. It ruined late archery and muzzleloading and with their focus on taking bucks only, you're lucky to see an antlered deer by late November anyway. It also pisses me off that hunting on Sundays is not allowed because unless you are able to take off work to hunt, quality time in the woods is very limited and deer are hard to come by after several years of 8 weeks of guns in the woods. Maybe it's different for you guys in Canada and the western states but eastern hunters in crowded woods have it rough already and crossbows without modifying overall season lengths or adding antler restrictions wouldn't help that situation much.

7MM you have not been paying attention the crossbow is not more superior to a bow. A good shot with a bow can shoot just as good groups as a crossbow. It is just a different way of delivery. Todays compound bows with the excellent sighting systems and releases to help you hold for a smooth release plus the let off of the new bows to make drawing easier makes for a just as deadly system as the xbow. Bottom line is I hunt with both traditional and inline muzzle loaders. I have used both compound and recurve bows. My taste for rifles lean towards the old ones: milsurps and I have a 1902 smokeless frame Remington Rolling Block rebarreled to 45/70 with a Green Mountain barrel. A 94 Win 30/30 My only real modern gun is a 308 Encore in 308. Still I do not tell other guys that their super duper short magnums should not be in the woods I feel folks should be able to use what they want as long as they can harvest the game animal cleanly. I have always taken a dim view of laws that make no sense or folks that try to tell me some thing that have no idea what they are talking about. In the case of Crossbows a lot of folks who really do not understand them join the bandwagon to condemn them which is unfortunate. As far as a separate season goes why?? You shoot a arrow and so do I so why should I be segregated to a different season? I should have the same rights and opportunities as the next guy shooting a arrow.

I keep seeing an underlying theme of "lets keep everybody else out of the woods until I get mine". Somebody mentioned selfishness back when this thread started. miles

These things shoot arrows too.....

http://www.swivelmachine.com/html/rimfire.htm

but is it "archery"?

I guess what I'm not buying is that the crossbow is not a superior weapon to a compound bow. I'm planning on doing some thorough testing on Hybrid Cams (Cam 1/2) vs Single Cams in the next couple of months. I'll try to get a hold of a modern crossbow and compare.

As for the selfishness..... I'll still get mine as I would have a crossbow as well. However, many people started shooting a bow and arrow simply because it allowed them to get into the woods a little early while the deer are acting more natural and not being hunted as hard. It's a very enjoyable time depsite the "success" rate being lower than with a rifle. I think crossbows would drastically change this as more people would enter the woods because I still believe it's an easier weapon to become proficient with than a bow and arrow.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be legal to hunt with them but I like having different seasons based on one's weapon of choice. Sorry, but I don't think crossbows are that similar to bows. When you can sit at the base of a tree or ground blind and aim and fire a pre-cocked and loaded weapon with minimal movement or without getting up, it's not the same in my book.

Sorry, but I don't think compound bows are that similar to traditional recurves. And I don't think in-line muzzleloaders are that similar to traditional muzzleloaders, either. I want my own seasons for those!

Sorry, couldn't resist. You see where that argument leads, though, right? Spear season, atlatl season, knife season, slingshot season, blowgun season, flintlock muzzleloader season, caplock muzzleloader season, in-line muzzleloader season .................

It's mostly about greed, I suspect, when you get right down to the nitty-gritty. Everyone wants to find a way to eliminate competition from other hunters, regardless of the weapon used. Not hard to understand. We all would like more space to ourselves. The "crossbow" issue is mostly just a red herring, I think. JMO.

7SAUM

No, that is NOT archery because the arrow is not being propelled by a bow, in that device, the arrow is propelled by a burning propellant........look up the definition of Bow and you will see that, regardless of your personal prejudices, the part of a crossbow that actually propels the arrow, by definition, *IS* a bow!

Even if they did legalize crossbows during the regular archery season, for anyone who wanted to use one........I don't believe there would be a great increase in the number of people hunting during archery season.......because most people don't have the patience, skill, determination....or whatever, to deal with the limitations of a tool that requires getting within 30 yards of a deer.

An arrow at 250-300 fps, regardless of what propels it, is not a reliable, efficient killer past 30 yards.......yes, lot's of folks can consistently hit targets past 30 yards, but the farther the shot, the greater the chance that the deer will react to the sound and "jump the string" resulting in a miss or a poor hit. This is even more of a problem with crossbows because they tend to be much louder than modern compound bows.

I have hunted with recurves, compounds and crossbows.......the ONLY advantage the crossbow has over the others is the fact that it doesn't have to be drawn when the animal is close......a "draw lock" equipped compound bow is actually easier to use and more effective than a crossbow because it has all the advantages and none of the disadvantages of the crossbow.....

I hope that a few facts will not get in the way of "I think" and "I believe". In Arkansas crossbow and Archery season are together. They start the first day of October and run until the fifteenth of Febuary. You can kill either sex, statewide. In the 2002-2003 season the Kill was:
Archery-6,934
crossbow-2,815
muzzleloader-19,515
modern gun-95,187

In 2003-2004
Archery-6,232
crossbow-2,946
muzzleloader-10,992
modern gun-86,965

Crossbow have been legal here for a lot of years. I have had mine for over ten years. You can see the the slaughter that is always predicted never happens. miles

With the let off percentages we have now I don't see much differance from a compound to a cross bow. Why don't you bow hunters get over it! You get to hunt from Oct. 1 through Jan first, in Michigan. Get a grip.

Thankyou Miles for showing the figures in black and white! Jim

Having guided a lot of hunters using both and having owned both myself I do not think a crossbow should be allowed during the normal Archery season. I aslo do not like the safety systems on any that I have seen. They just seem flimsy and dangerous to me.

When hunting from a hide(tree stand) the advantage of a crossbow is undeniable. With a scope or red dot sight it's a rifle when shooting form a hide or over bait. I was also extremely dissapointed in the over all power. Mine was a browning 150 pound draw compound and did not have the same penetration or trajectory that my 1980's vintage martin couger magnum had. That makes it far less then my current mathews Legacy.

Hauling that beast around the bush loaded is a horror show. It is such a burdon in fact that most guys hunting with me in RSA have bailed out and used a rifle by the 3rd day.

Over all I think that it's a good stand hunting tool for a handicapped hunter during a special season. As far as comparing it to a regular bow no way! The single greatest problem with a trigger release for hunters using a conventional bow is called target panic. With a crossbow that does not happen. It's a significantly greater difficulty to become good with a compound bow and draw it back then the effort to use a compound bow.

There is a lot of "class envy" between people of different diciplines. long bow/recurve/compund/crossbow/blackpowder/shotguns slugs/ handguns/ rifles etc. each group is very defensive of their own interestes. Thats human nature, I'm OK with that. I don't give a rip if there becomes a crossbow season. I just don't think it's fair to include it into the normal Archery season. More likely include it with the muzzle loader seaon.

I also think there needs to be a minimum power level. as I said my Browning crossbow had no where near the power(penetration) of my old cougar magnum compound. Just some toughts from a guy who owns both.

JJ....after reading your post, I'm trying to figure out where you think the advantage is with the crossbow over the modern compound????

On one hand you say the overall power is disappointing......yet you say the crossbow is "a rifle" from a hide???? Since we know you aren't referring to power, are you referring to accuracy, ease of use or what???

Facts:

Modern compounds are more technologically advanced than crossbows.

Modern compounds are just as fast as crossbows.

Modern compounds are just as accurate as crossbows.

Modern compounds can produce more kinetic energy than crossbows.

Modern compounds will shoot just as far or farther than a crossbow.

Modern compounds are easier to carry and manuver than crossbows.

Modern compounds are quieter than crossbows.

Modern compounds can use equally sophisticated sighting equipment as crossbows.

Modern compounds are usually fired with a mechanical trigger, same as a crossbow.

Crossbows are easier to learn to shoot proficiently than modern compounds.

Crossbows are easier for people with limited strength to use.

Crossbows are mechanically held at full draw.

Both devices have the same limitations on shot distance, shot placement and both kill exactly the same way.......



Yes, there are advantages to hunting with a crossbow.......I don't think anyone could deny that.......but, let's not forget, it is also MUCH easier to hunt with a modern 85% let-off compound than with a recurve or longbow........and when these "primitive" seasons were originally established, the compound wasn't in the picture.......anybody that claims that the crossbow shouldn't be allowed because it was not included in the original intent when archery seasons were established can't then turn around and accept ANY compound!!!

You can't have it both ways!!!

If you want to get back to the intent......then let's go all the way! No compounds.....recurves or longbows only, wood arrows only, fixed blade broadheads only, feather fletching only, no release, no sights, no commercial treestands, no goretex, no cordura boots, no thinsulate........when you are willing to admit that modern equipment provides a HUGE advantage over anything available when modern archery seasons were established....... and, when you start hunting the archery season with NOTHING that wasn't available when the first bow season was held in your state.......then you can take the moral high ground and tell me crossbows shouldn't be allowed.......but be careful, I might just remind you that crossbows pre-date any modern archery seasons......they existed BEFORE modern archery hunting began!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hey I voiced my opinion that's it. If you want to sell me on the idea you gotta do beter then this!

The people that are against crossbows are not going to let facts and reason get in their way when they are forming an opinion. They were born knowing that crossbows are bad. If they were not , Hell, they would like them. miles

How about answering the question???

On one hand you say the overall power is disappointing......yet you say the crossbow is "a rifle" from a hide???? Since we know you aren't referring to power, are you referring to accuracy, ease of use or what???

GonHuntin,

Nice try, but it looks like you're gonna need more than just facts. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

..........................

Travelingman,

You were wise to bail out. I'm right behind ya. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Walker, Still enjoying the show from the sidelines. Just know that a lot of folks never allow themselves to be confused by facts. :-) TM

7mmSAUM

Sorry to see that you deleted your post.......since I already had this answer typed up, I'll post it anyway........

You bring up an interesting point about rifles.......when most gun seasons were established in most places, there were no 300 win mags.......maybe any rifle more powerful than a 30-30 shouldn't be allowed in rifle season??? Maybe telescopic sights shouldn't be allowed either?? The logic is the same.....a rifle that shoots faster and more accurately certainly makes killing a deer easier!

As far as Arkansas goes.......crossbows have been legal there as long as I can remember, yet there are more conventional bowhunters than crossbow hunters used there......ever wonder why??? If crossbows are so much more effective......don't you think most people would use them if they had the choice???

You say: "If crossbows were treated as bows in Virginia and many other eastern states, all kinds of laws would have to be changed so deer would have a chance to make it to rifle season."

Why do you believe that??? Do you really believe if the law was changed that hoards of people would immediately take up the crossbow??? I think you are dreaming....or, worse yet, you are using that fear as an excuse without finding out the truth.

If what you say is true, why aren't the states that allow crossbows cutting back on seasons and bag limits???? After all, if what you guys are saying is true......there shouldn't be a deer left in Ohio, Wyoming and Arkansas!

Have you ever used a crossbow, or, are you like 90% of the other folks out there who badmouth crossbows even though they have never used one???

I hunted 35-40 days during archery season last fall...I hunted almost envery day during the rut... I saw several good bucks that would have been a chip shot with my old iron sighted Hawken, but they were just out of range of my crossbow.......I only took one deer with a crossbow last year....a doe.......I passed up at least 35 shots at 25 yards or less, about half of those were less than 15 yards...more than half were small bucks......I could have easily made most of those shots with my old 43 pound Black Widow recurve (if I could still shoot it)......I didn't take anything away from any other hunter.....I didn't wound and fail to recover any deer......I didn't crowd anybody out......I didn't keep anyone else from killing a deer.......all I did was enjoy the great outdoors.......but you and many other folks tell me I don't have the right to be there and enjoy archery season..........because my bow doesn't meet your approval.......if that isn't selfishness.......I've never seen it!

Good points gonhunting!!!

As I said I am voicing my opinion, no more no less we are all entitled to that. To debate the silly notion that your dragging up is not worth wile to me. You're right the over all power was dissapointing to me. And as I said the precocked point and shoot from a hide is an advantage that eliminates one of the greatest struggles with conventional archery gear. Heck just this weekend I was shooting carp in a lake from my boat. I will estimate (conservatively) that 1/3 the carp bolted from sight when I drew my bow to shoot them. This is just with a stupid carp! Had I only needed to point and shoot with a precocked weapon none of them would have had that chance.

AS I said I have owned and used both and see a huge difference between them. As far as I'm concerned your selling the idea to the wrong group of people. Nobody here(to my knowledge) can change the laws in each state. You guys that feel so strongly need to persue this with your states F&G departments. Several states already offer a crossbow season and some of canada does as well.

If it's a legal season so much the better then you can have your wish. I have no class envy on this whole crossbow debate. I do not consider a crossbow as difficult or as sporting as a conventional bow. I also don't consider My Mathews Legacy with a trigger release as sporting as a Recurve or a recurve as sporting as a 100% self constructed long bow with flint tips. There are all different levels of "sporting" and many are in the eyes of the beholder!

So I say again "in my opinion" the Crossbow is not apples and apples when compared to a conventional bow of any style. If it actually were considered the same by the majority of Game departments across the country then why is not considered legal in all those states?

I have no vested interest in the debate. I own both a Browning Crossbow right now, and three compound bows. If the cross bow were made legal and hunting bears over bait was made legal again that crossbow would likely be my first choice for a weapon to use. Silent and deadly to the distance I need not spooking the bait with a gun shot. With a red dot scope perfectly functional to well after the canopy of the forest blocks the light from the setting sun.

No movement a solid rest from my seated treestand chair rail. It's as good as it gets. I would not ever try to claim its as hard or as sporting as having to stand and draw a 70 pound bow and hold it steady with that physical effort for the bear to turn just right, or step out from behind a tree or branch before the arrow can be released.

Some guys have a bug up their A$$ but have never used one. I have used them both and own them both. Because of that I clearly see the superior accuracy and lack of physical effort when hunting from a hide, or elevated platform. They still spook me to no end with the flimsy (my opinion) safety and the multitude of ways that thing can accidental discharge when walking with it loaded. It is definately harder to hunt with where long stalks are the hunting style. I would no sooner carry that heavy awkward bugger then a load of bricks!

JJ

My post wasn't meant strictly for you, but I did want an answer to the question I asked because you seemed to contradict yourself.......

I've never seen a Browning crossbow, so I can't comment on the safety issue of your bow.......I have shot a few different brands of crossbows and have yet to see one with a flimsy safety???......I don't see how a loaded crossbow is any different than a loaded gun as far as safety goes.......I don't point either one at anything I don't want to shoot.......

As to the effort required to hold a 70 pound compound at full draw.......well, at 85% letoff, you would be holding a whopping 10.5 pounds.......not really a big deal! If someone helps me get the bow drawn, I can hold 10.5 pounds at full draw for a long time.....even with a junk shoulder! As far as getting busted while drawing.......if you set up correctly, that isn't the problem a lot of folks make it out to be.......I know, I've been there and done that........

In the 80s, I served as Rangemaster and later President of one of the largest bowhunting clubs in Oklahoma.......a lot of us had the same mistaken ideas about crossbows back then......even though very few of us had ever shot one, we bought the "crossbows are rifles" propaganda put out by the likes of Bowhunter Magazine and other "bowhunting" organizations..... funny thing, when my busted up my shoulder finally put an end to me shooting a conventional bow, I found out real fast how wrong we all were! I found out that crossbows aren't magic, that they are loud and cumbersome, that they aren't superior in performance to compound bows...that they don't make killing a deer a sure thing.....

I have a lifetime permit to hunt with a crossbow......I could just do my thing and keep quiet.......but I believe that people have been lied to about crossbows for too long.......and I have a difficult time standing by and listening to the blatant lies that many ignorant people regurgitate when the topic of crossbows is brought up.......

I certainly don't mind an opinion that differs from mine as long as the person giving it actually has some experience from which to base that opinion.....and isn't just parroting back the propaganda that he has heard........I'm sure you can understand that......

Your going in circles with regulations that are not consistant nation wide. Simply put most states do not allow 85% letoff but only 65% and I'll bet you anything you like that you will not hold that amount for 60 seconds and make an accurate shot 100% of the time. Especailly when you have been sitting all bundled up in a tree for 3 hours with no stretching or moving at 15 degrees F in the wind. Try standing and shooting only a 50lb bow with a huge coat on VS raising a crossbow and pulling a trigger!

As I said if your trying to sell this idea you still need some work before I'm buying! I have well in excess of 20 years experience of conventional Archery with recurves, compounds, and yes even the Crossbow! I have also had dozens of hunters through my Hunting consession in Africa with all sorts of Archery from Long bows to Crossbows. I do know the clear difference in the use of each. It's not an easy sell to those of us have used them both with frequency! They are absolutely not the same. To turn the table on this if you continue to claim there is not any difference in the function or practical use why not just get a compound bow and be done with it? If holding an 85% compound is just so easy why not get one? I would be interested to see how you handle target panic when you lose the crossbow trigger, and replace it with the compound trigger release while under pressure of draw weight, trying to aim, not being detected while drawing, and actually hitting the target!

I get to voice an opinion just like you and everyone else. Mine has been voiced and you have responded I respect your opinion. I hope you respect mine. Neither of us is going to re-write the law. I suggest you put your energy to a more productive use and get a petition started in your home state or where ever you choose to hunt and try to change the law. It's my guess you will have your work cut out for you. This was clearly good practice to see how the general public will respond to your request to change your states law.

If this thread is any indication you will need some work to win the battle. I suggest removing all emotion form the argument, remove all personal feelings and get the facts. Research states and provinces that now allow Crossbows. Get statistics from as many credible sources as you can find. Don't embelish a single item, if you do and it's been proven otherwise the credibility of all your reseach and statistics will be questioned. Go to Archerytalk.com and post this thread. They will eat you alive with absolutely no effort. But it will get you a taste of what you would see when trying to get a law changed. If you can survive that site with a post like this, or even just keep your head above water you will be well on your way to seeing the big picture of getting people to think like you do about crossbows.

It's a long hard battle to win something like this with the state government or even F&G. I wish you well with the endeavor! Oh and if you do post this at Archerytalk.com in the bowhunting forum please let me(us) know, I am looking forward to the entertainment of that thread!

JJ

I guess you didn't read all my post......I bow hunted for 20 years with both recurve and compound bows.....I'm NOT new to the game! I know exactly how much difficulty is involved with drawing holding and shooting a conventional bow. When I said I can hold an 85% let off compound for a long time at full draw.......it wasn't speculation.....I have done it! As far as holding it for 60 seconds and making an accurate shot 100% of the time, no, I can't do it, neither can YOU and neither can 99% of bowhunters....so what does that prove??? Believe me, if I could still shoot a compound bow.......I WOULD!

By the way, which states prohibit 85% let off compounds??? Do you know that Pope & Young recently changed their rules to allow the submission of "trophies" taken with 85% let-off bows???

As far as archery talk goes......I have visited the site......I have seen how they treat crossbow users.......you talk about a cesspool of ignorance!!!! Talk about people that argue strictly from emotion!! I'd venture to say that 90% of those folks have zero experience with crossbows.......yet they rant, rail and regurgitate against them like the actually KNOW what they are talking about! You know what, those folks aren't the people that need convincing, they don't make the laws any more than you or I do.......

I think it's ironic that none of the anti crossbow folks on this thread, including you, have brought forth any FACTS to contradict what I and many other have said..........nobody has said that crossbows don't have an advantage.......but the advantage isn't nearly as great as many folks want to believe! Certainly not enough to ban them from regular archery seasons!

JJ, you make one of the more reasoned arguments against crossbows of anyone I have heard and give examples where they would have an advantage. To tell the truth I had not thought about the advantage in very cold weather as we really do not get that much down here.

You did mention in an earlier post that most of the hunters who bring one to Africa give it up in just a few days and go with a rifle? I am curious if the same is true with those who show up with a recurve or compound bow? I suspect not but you have actual experience and I would very much like to know.

I suspect the answer is no because in my experience, the disadvantages of the crossbow, far outweigh the advantages. I have yet to hear from anyone on this board or elsewhere, who is forced by physical condition to use a crossbow, that would not immediately go back to a recurve or compound if they could. If we have such a tremendous advantage, why???
No one has ever answered that question for me. TM

Gonhunting your going to need a less emotional spokesmen for your cause. Your far too wound up to think clearly on this. As an example you wrote this bit of text, which is exactly my point and burries your theory of there being no "sporting" difference:

Your Quote:
"When I said I can hold an 85% let off compound for a long time at full draw.......it wasn't speculation.....I have done it! As far as holding it for 60 seconds and making an accurate shot 100% of the time, no, I can't do it, neither can YOU and neither can 99% of bowhunters....so what does that prove???"
------------------------------------------------------------


What does it Prove? It shows absolutely clear that a conventional bow cannot be held and shot accurately for any length of time. ***VERY*** different then a crossbow which can be held ready to shoot with Zero effort infinately and aimed rock steady just like a rifle before a trigger realeses the arrow with no chance of target panic.

As I said if you want to tune your debating skills on this topic go hang out on the Archry talk forum. You can learn a thing or two about the views you are up against. So maybe there is emotion in the debate over there, learn from it and you will see what not to do when trying to sell your idea.

Travelingman, The reason for giving it up is not the shooting from a hide but rather trying to drag that huge awkward contraption through the bush quietly. Plenty of times we have been crawling along a game trail. The crossbow is a hidious tool to sneak around with. I would venture a guess it's near worthless in thick bush when stalking to within shooting range of game. The other issue is the weight and balance. I just don't think these things were meant for the stealty kind of stalks that are typically required in Africa. From the hide it's a magic wand of death. However trying to carry it around is your worst nightmare. After a day of lugging that thing around most guys rethink the system and go with a rifle. Funny the practice they had at home was all shooting and no carrying around.

One guy said that he thought it was a waste of time to drag that thing across the ocean and an even bigger waste to try and wrestle it through the bush. Come to think of it, this is likely why the mechanical safety concernes me so much. With the bow string able to hangup so easy and tug on the safety plenty often it's just a bit spookey to have that thing pointing at your a$$ when crawling ahead of your client. Not to mention that you just don't bump the end of it without a serious injury. The broadhead is sticking out the end and will cause serious injury if even lightly bumped! Add to that the bow mounted quiver with the arrows bumping and hanging up on every branch and vine.

For these reasons I think injured or handicapped people would go back to a conventional drawn bow if they could. A crossbow has significant advantages from a hide or blind or treestand, or in cold weather. However it's a boat anchor with bells and rattles if you want to stalk with it. In that case a conventional bow is better and safer, hands down.

You or someone has to get it to the blind or stand. That is one place the regular bow has the advantage. We are not saying that the crossbow does not have some good points, but that it is not the Angel of death that some would have everyone believe. miles

I find walking through the woods with a crossbow is no more difficult than a bow both can get hung up in stuff just as a gun can. Both have their plus's and minus's. Funny thing is you do not see crossbow hunters saying that they should out law bows but you sure see bow hunters saying that about crossbows. Bottom line is they both launch a arrow and I do not think I am any more accurate with my xbow than I used to be with my compound. SO I really do not see why the bow hunters get in such a big sweat over the usage of crossbows. Ignorance of the weapon I guess. Jim

JJ, it was you that introduced the "100% of the time" stipulation into this question......that why I said I can't do it and neither can you or anybody else........I would also add that the ONLY way a crossbow can be held steady for any length of time is with a rest......

I'm not worried about improving my debating skills.......I'm not trying to change the law or the world......just trying to put some facts into the discussion and debunk some of the BS that always goes along with it.........

Now, I'd still like to hear which states have outlawed 85% let off compounds.....or did you forget that question???

If this interestes you do the research. There is a poster at the archery club I frequent in Mequon Wisconsin. It showed all 50 states and the minimum draw weights and let off allowed. I found it amusing that most allowed up to 65% letoff and a few up to 80% *with special needs*. For starters Montana, Washington, Idaho, and Colorado will be sending you home with a ticket if your using an 85% letoff bow. I live in Wa. State but travel extensively. I'm in Mequon Wisconson once a month for a 4 days to a week at a time. Funny how so few states allow crossbows? Why is that do you think?

JJ

Well, I learned something today! I did find it funny that one of the states with a mandatory maximum of 80% let-off leaves a enough "wiggle room" for "variations in let-off" which, in effect, allows bows with 85% let-off!

I find it very interesting that the legal bow definition in at least one of the states you mentioned is word for word the same as that of the Pope&Young club......makes one wonder who is pulling the strings in that state........

I do not have the regs in front of me but as far as I know WI does not have any stipulations as far as let off goes.

JJ, Appreciate your thoughts and I am more than willing to discuss this with someone who does not go postal over their interpretation of what should be. Do have a couple of comments.

While I agree with your comment that most people can not draw and hold a compound for a minute, I would submit they can not hold a crossbow much longer. All the weight is at the far end and it quickly begins to waver. Same is probably true for a rifle, although the balance appears to be further back and thus easier to hold a little longer. How many times have you seen someone raise up from a rifle and then go back to shoot, because the rifle started to wiggle. Same with a crossbow, althought again, with the weight forward it seems to be more of a problem. That is based on my experience but that might be influenced by my bad shoulders.

Second, your tree stands must be different than mine as we have no way to "prop" up the crossbow. This is where I have a real issue. No where to comfortably hold the darn thing that does not have a knee, hand, etc. going though the string, which is at full cock. The safety on my Excalibur seems great but it is like having a body part in front of a rifle barrel. Just does not make you comfortable. Since there is no where to prop the thing, you keep it on your lap and have to bring it up to the shoulder to shoot. Much more obvious to deer as you are not bringing a bow strait up or a rifle, which has a small cross section but a bow held sideways. Lots of relative motion that deer seem to pick out much better than the conventional bows I used to hunt with. At least that is the case with me.

In a hide, where you might have horizontal lines, I can see where this might work better but not in the tree stands where I hunt.

Finally to address the penetration. Do not know the physics but have been told part of the problem with crossbows, versus regular bows, is their relatively short stroke. They have less time and distance to impart energy to the bolt and since it is lighter than normally used (mine are 350 grains vs the 450 grain arrows I used to shoot) they do lose energy faster. Thus you have to be close to use them. To me that is the real challenge in bow hunting of any type. Being close enough to see their eyes blink. To me, that is the essence of bow hunting, no matter which type of bow you use. JMHO TM

T-Man, you're spot on with the weight of an unsupported Crossbow. It is a bugger to shoot freehand. I always built rests into my stands for the clients to use. Much less stress and tracking for me then they can make a quick easy shot. Also being above the line of sight and not having to stand up was always a bit of an advantage. I know I shot quite a few animals using my elbows on my knees as a rest. With a Bow I have got to stand to shoot much of the time. I have shot it kneeling and sitting but over the years I think almost all my shots have been while standing.

You may not be able to always use a rest with a crossbow bow but if it's available at least you can if you wish. with a conventional bow you have to hold the bow steady and aim, and hold the draw weight back. If there is a rest available near by you can go over and sit on if after the shot though!

I was trying to stay out of this thread until I spent more time shooting and testing the various claims about crossbows vs bows.

It does seem that there is about as much ignorance on the part of crossbowers towards bows as there is by some of us bowhunters towards crossbows.

Yes, crossbows do require more weight to achieve the same energy transfer because of their short draw stoke. This is because the string is accelerating over a longer distance with bows. This is also true with archers shooting bows that have shorter draw cycles than the 30 inch listed standard for most published bow velicities. In many cases, 1 inch of draw length will equal about 10-15 lbs of draw weight. Most shorter bowhunters are actually getting about 30-40 fps less than what the manufacturers publish. 31-32 inch draw archers get more velocity but might have a more difficult time with other aspects of setting a bow up to be at it's best and getting good broadhead flight.

T-man, you might want to try going to a heavier spined shaft, not necessarily to give you more downrange velocity but to reduce the force being absorbed by your crossbow. This is most likely why you are complaining about crossbows being noisier.

As for the 65-80% let off on compound bows. I might be the exception but I don't necessarily find the 80% let off bows easier to shoot accurately on a bow that pulls over 70 lbs of peak weight. I hunt with a bow with about a 62% let off because I shoot it more accurately than I did the ones with such a drastic let off.

As for method of firing, if someone thinks a Tru-Fire trigger release is a smooth as even an old 1903 Springfield trigger let alone a 2.5 - 3.0 lb custom trigger, they are kidding themselves. Release aids for bows, are not near as simple to use as triggers for shoulder fired weapons.

I also think due to the more physical nature of shooting a bow and holding at full draw while making a smooth release, many bowhunters shoot their weapons year round to stay proficient and allow their muscles to be in shape to be able to draw a bow when it really matters. Those are probably the archers that can come close to the level of accuracy you are saying most bowhunters generally have. Where, the average crossbow shooter that has spent any reasonable time behind a rifle, could probably pick up and shoot a crossbow (from a rest) 1-2 days a year prior to the season and be ready to place 3 bolts in a 3 inch circle at 40 yards. Even most advanced bowhunters would struggle with this.

Also, shorter bolts/arrows generally fly better with broadheads. Without worrying about broadhead planing, tuning a crossbow to hunt with should be easier.

If crossbows are so similar to bows, maybe someone should try getting the Olympic committee to allow crossbowers to compete against archers using bows.

Why not give crossbows their own hunting season? Why try to say they are no better than compound bows or that hunting seasons should not be divided into classes and cry snobbery or discrimination when anyone disagrees with you? I personally wouldn't mind seeing 4-5 distinct hunting seasons, it would give me a good excuse to purchase a crossbow or carry them in my shop. Heck, I think general firearms season could probably be reduced a few weeks in many places anyway. I'd be for replacing some rifle/shotgun time in states that have 2-3 months of firearms season with crossbows or handguns only or at least allowing the use of these weapons during rifle season.

Also, most people do use a rest when hunting with a rifle. However, I have shot plenty of deer offhand with a gun because circumstances dictated I did so. Although, I always prefer some type of rest to make a better shot. If inability to use a rest 100% of the time with a crossbow is criteria for inferiority, then does that make rifles no better than bows? If the range of crossbows are truly limited to only 40 yards, I cannot see how shooting one off-hand at that range would spell disaster.

Again, I'll hold off until I do some testing but I'm betting a modern crossbow is more like a 50-60 yard weapon when properly set up and shooting from a rest, accuracy (tightness of groups) will be about the same as I get with my bow at 25 yards.

T-Man, I realize trajectory is still an issue with both weapons, but you admitted youself that you are handicapping your crossbow by the bolts you choose to use. I also realize crossbows have many of the same external influences as bows that make longer shots questionable/unethical. All, of these issues apply to guns as well, it's just at significantly longer distances.

If I find that crossbows are the weapons you claim them to be and do not give someone a very significant advantage over bows, I will come on this website and admit that I was totally wrong. I suggest for those of you not injured and still capable of drawing a modern compound, go purchase one or borrow from a friend and try to do some of the same things with a bow and arrow that you are capable of doing with a crossbow.

7mmSAUM

You make many assumptions that are based neither on fact nor experience......but on what you have heard or read!

I'd be willing to bet that most crossbows users also have extensive experience with conventional bows........so don't be so sure that we are making uneducated assumptions about compounds!

I am glad to hear that you are planning to actually shoot a few crossbows to see for yourself! I would enjoy watching you try to put 3 broadhead tipped arrows in a 3" circle at 40 yards offhand the first time you try it! I believe you would be in for a real surprise! Oh yeah., be sure you start out with a crossbow/bolt/broadhead combination that has NOT already been set up and tuned by someone who knows what they are doing.......then come back and tell us how well it shoots at 40 yards! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

7MMSUAM, Short on time this morning but I will say that we had a little impromtu shooting session last fall, when we were getting ready for bow season. Myself and 4 guys I know well, who are all very exerienced bowmen. Shooting at life like deer, bear and turkey targets, they all agreed, the crossbow was a good weapon at 30 yards and they would be comfortable shooting something with. At 40 they said they would all prefer their compounds.

Never tried shooting one with a rest but assume they would improve the accuracy some. Problem is, the way we hunt, there are no easily accessable rests. Might be a tree limb or fence post occasionally but nothing you can rely on being there.

Finally, curious to know where you have found a trigger with anything like the feel of a rifle trigger. The best I have found do not come close to even the factory triggers on rifles. My Excaliber has the best I have found to date, after being specially tuned by one of their guys. Most have real mushy triggers will a lot of force needed to release them. As we all know, not conductive to real effective shooting.

JMHO TM

As far as a separate season when would you bow hunters want that for crossbows?? IN WI Bow season starts the middle of Sept and goes until the 3rd week of Nov then rifle season for 9 days then muzzle loader season for another week to 10 days then bow season again until the end of Dec and some places end of Jan so when do you think we should have our own special season! Like I said alot of bow hunters are all me and to hell with the other guy! Notice I said alot as not all are that way but the most vocal are and the ones that are dead set against crossbows. I shoot my crossbow with out a rest and find that I can do it fine but then my xbow only weighs 5 pounds also. 7mm a crossbow is a 40 yard weapon at best as it looses to much energy at longer ranges and has too much of a rainbow trajectory. Every one thinks since they are 150# to 175# ect bows they are very powerful and capable of long ranges which is wrong like was stated before 40 yards is what most manufactures say is the limit for hunting and 30 yards is better yet with 20 and under being optimum. You may hit the target well at 60 yards but the energy is not there and you would have to set up your xbow just for that distance as the elevation would be a lot. Just as you would have to raise the elevation with a bow. I think a lot of folks see that rife stock and figure these xbows work like a rifle which they do not they are and act like a bow. No difference on pulling a trigger on a xbow than pulling a trigger on a release the end result is the same as is the effective yardage and the bow has the advantage in the yardage dept. Jim

GoneHunting, you need to read what I posted again. I did say, "using a rest" and did not say the first time I shot a crossbow. I said shooting a crossbow 1 or 2 times a year, meaning once the CB is set up, it's just a matter of checking everything out to make sure it's hitting where it's supposed to.

Geeze, if crossbows as such big POS, why do you all love them so much?

Anyway, I'll get to see for myself in the next couple of months.

Okay, if the crossbows are no better, and may be worse than compound bows, then why do you want to use them?

Within their limits they are a great system under 40 yards with 30 being more realistic I think for the average hunter just as bows are. If we sound like we are downplaying the crossbow we do not mean to. It is just that those who do not know the crossbow make such outlandish claims about them if we say anything to downplay that it sounds negative. Crossbows and bows within their prospective ranges are both deadly systems. Both should be shot at the ranges the user is capable of wether that be 10 yards or 40. Most bow hunters do not shoot over 40 yards either. It is one thing to shoot at a target over 40 yards out ot a 100 with a bow or crossbow but a far different thing when used for hunting. Like I and others have said 40 yards is max for a xbow at least it is according to my the book that came with my crossbow. Though further shots could be made they are not really being fair to the animal just as folks who shoot long shots with a rifle that normally do not shoot that far in practice. Bows and crossbows loose a lot of speed after a distance bows have the edge on crossbows because of a heavier arrow due to it being longer it holds the energy longer. Just like a Conical has more energy down range than a round ball does out of a muzzle loader. Still those of us that like crossbows do so because it is all we can use if handicapped or just because we like them. Bottom line is if a crossbow makes a guy a better shot than with a bow I see no reason not to use it. ALL sorts of weapons wound animals and unclaimed animals is usually the fault or lazyness of the hunter to track and find the animal. IF one animal could be found because the guy made a better shot with a crossbow than a bow that is arguement for me for the use of one. You can say it about any form of weapons used that some will lose animals but I hear too darn many stories of guys during archery season losing animals they hit and could not find because the main reason was they could not shoot good but would not admit it to them selves. If using a crossbow made them better shots then I am all for it. Though I have to say PRACTICE would make them just as good with a bow as a crossbow. I have heard two many guys in archery shops say I shoot my bow and if I hit the target a couple of times I am ready. Well shooting a target does not equal hunting situations no matter what the weapon used!

My responce to the attacks of crossbow advocates.

1. Bowhunters are just elitist snobs that don't want to share the woods.

Answer: Nonsense. You guys make it sound like we are part of some secret club that other people can't join unless we hold a private counsel and vote them in. The last time I checked "ANYONE" that buys a bow can hunt archery season. How is a supporting a law that excludes "NOBODY" elitist? Am I being elitist if I don't want Muzzle loaders in archery season? It's the weapon being restricted not the people. It's the weapon I don't welcome not the people. I take many people hunting on my land each year and I've helped dozens of people get started in bowhunting. I even gave some of them my older bows when they couldn't afford one of their own. This is a very unfair criticism of most bowhunters I know and is not at the heart of our feelings towards crossbows and their users.

2. Crossbows offer no advantage over a bow.

Admittedly I have not hunted with a crossbow (until last year they were illegal for hunting in Alabama) but I have shot them quite a bit and they do have some significant advantages IMHO. First, they are way easier to learn. Having been an avid firearm shooter my whole life I could pretty much stack bolts out to 35 yards the first time I ever picked one up. Needless to say it took considerably longer to learn to shoot a bow that well. Second, having a weapon that remains cocked and ready laid across your lap is a huge advantage in deer hunting. Drawing a bow with a deer 20 yards away is far more likely to get you busted than gently lifting a cocked crossbow. Third, it eliminates the problem of deciding when to draw. Countless times I have drawn on a deer only to have it stop behind some brush or turn to present a bad shot angle. I don't care if a bow does have 80 percent let off you can't hold it back and wait for very long in those circumstances. It's way easier to lower a crossbow back down to a rested position under such circumstances than it is to quietly let a bow back down after holding at full draw as long as you could. Fourth, a crossbow is aimed like a gun and can be fired from a rested position. A bow can not. Fifth, crossbows by virtue of their design eliminate the problems of canting or torqueing a bow which often plagues bow shooters. Sixth, it rapidly becomes too dark to see through a peep sight on a bow each evening but a crossbow topped with a good light gathering scope would allow you to stay up a tree just as long as a rifle hunter could.

3. Crossbows are no different than bows because they have a similar effective range.

Yes, both do have a similar range but this is not the deciding factor in my book. How far can you consistently hit a deer in the vitals with a pistol using open sights. I'm a fair shot with a pistol but I wouldn't feel comfortable past 40 yards. So by this similar range logic should open sighted pistols be allowed in archery season?

4. Top pro compound bow shooters are more accurate than top crossbow shooters thus proving crossbows offer no advantage.

Yes, it is true that a pro who shoots with perfect, praticed form can consistently do this. The mechanics of the opposing forces with a drawn bow do allow a proffesional to hold it a little steadier than a freehand crossbow. But comparing pros to the rest of us is an apples to oranges type deal. There are olympic shooters that can shoot a peep sighted 22 rifle more accurate than I can shoot one with a scope. Does that mean that for the average person a scope is no advantage over a peep sight? I know I sure shoot more accurately with the scope.

5. Crossbows will draw more people to hunting.

Nonsense, it will merely get the gun hunters out there a little ealier. It will draw no new people to hunting. There are no people sitting out there thinking, "Bows, rifles, muzzleloaders, screw that, but man if they legalized crossbows I'd start hunting!"

If crossbows really offer no advantage over bows then why are people pushing so hard for them in bow season? Who pushes for less effective weapons than the ones already available in a particular season? I mean boomerangs and spears are weapons that we all would agree definately offer no advantage over bows and that being the case oddly enough I never hear anyone pushing for their use during bow season. Yet I see people pushing for crossbows all the time. Hmmmm, odd huh?

All bowhunters I know support crossbows for handicapped people in bow season so that's a non issue but if modern compounds with high let offs are as similar and easy to use as a crossbow then it begs the question; "why aren't all these healthy crossbow advocates using one then." Why are we bowhunters accused of trying to exclude people if modern compounds are virtually the same as a crossbow? Something seems a little inconsistent in those two views expressed by the crossbow side. On the one hand they say a modern compound is actually a better easier weapon than a crossbow but then on the other hand I'm an elitist b#####d that wants to exclude people if I want to require people to use at least a modern compound during archery season.

Bottem line is that this is about money. Crossbow companies are drooling out of both sides of their mouth at the prospect of selling every gun hunter in America a crossbow. They don't know or give a s### what effect it will have on hunting or the game herd in a particular place. Just show me the money baby.

Will crossbows destroy archery season? Well the jury is still out here in Alabama but our gun season is so long and our bag limit so high that I doubt you will see a huge influx of crossbow hunters into bowseason here. The hunting generally doesn't get good here until the weather cools off in late December anyway. Places that have very short gun seasons yet very long bow seasons like Illinois on the other hand could see a big decline in the quality of bowseason.

Traditional (longbow and recurve) bowhunters did!

That's how bowhunting got started in the 1930's. Traditional bowhunters pushed for the legal use of bows during the rifle deer season .

Of course, that was back when bowhunters, as a group, were more interested in experiencing the primitive ways of old, than in getting the jump on rifle hunters for the "trophy bucks".

Would it be okay with you if bow season was held during (or after) the rifle season?

Todd

You make some valid points.......those same points can be made by "traditionalists" who want to exclude compounds!

I'm sure if we were "traditionalists" discussing a ban on compounds, because they make things too easy and weren't the intent of those who worked to get an archery season....well, you would probably be screaming bloody murder in support of compounds......

The thing that irritates me most about compound users, that want to keep crossbows out of archery season, is the fact that they are all for making things easier too.......but they think making it easier should stop at the point where THEY want to draw the line....and that is simply hypocrisy of the worst kind!

I'd like you to answer one question......and I'd like you to answer it truthfully.......

What, exactly, would be hurt by legalizing crossbow use during bow season????

I accept your given example as valid but as even you yourself admit that was a different time and those guys had a very different agenda. People pushing for crossbows now are definately not old school traditionalists desiring the legalization of a form of hunting that presents a greater challenge. You know full well that 95 percent of the people who walked ino the woods in my home state with a crossbow this past season were gun hunters the year before and as soon as gun season opened this past year those crossbows hit a rack on the wall and haven't moved since. Not that this makes them bad people or anything but it's still a fact. Most bowhunters I know on the other hand still bowhunt even in gun season.

Walker,

I think the point he was making is not many of us believe that crossbows are inferior to bows.

In fact, of the 3 people posting on this thread that have experience using both weapons. Only 1 has tried to make the claim that crossbows are inferior and he is using crossbows out of necessity, not necessarily by choice and has admitted to handicapping his equipment somewhat by using lighter spined shafts. Also, he contradicted his argument by saying that if crossbows are more accurate they should be allowed because they are more humane that the many bowhunters that cannot shoot accurately.

The trend has also been to allow the inferior weapon first crack at the animals. Meaning, a crossbow season should fall between blackpowder and archery (bow) seasons and still be allowed during blackpowder and firearms season. If someone were to decide to hunt with a hatchet or spear, their season would go before archery or during archery as their weapon would truly be inferior to a compound bow even if a Master hatchet thrower turns out to be more lethal than an Average archer.

In Alabama as I stated above maybe nothing. Most people can kill so many deer here during gun season that they probably won't fool with crossbows much. Our gun season runs from Nov 20th to the end of Jan. You can kill a buck and a doe a day all season too. Theoretically thats something like 140 deer you could kill in gun season alone. The states that have a tag system and short gun seasons however could be in for a huge influx of hunters into bowseason. Long term you could see bow seasons shortened and tag restrictions placed on residents as well as nonresidents. The first year they allow crossbows in Illinois the demand for NR archery tags will skyrocket so high that I predict we will see them go to a lottery for tags rather than simply selling them over the phone as they do now.



And they were right weren't they. Compound use did pretty much kill traditional archery didn't it?



Well, you have to draw a line somewhere don't you? I mean look at what has happened to black powder seasons. They have become a joke. Modern inlines are as accurate at 100 yards as most factory rifles. They are just as reliable when it comes to firing as well. I've seen them that will shoot 3 to 4 inch groups at 200 yards. In effect you are now at no more of a disadvantage with one of these inlines than you would be with a single shot 45-70 rifle. This is why states like my own have been reluctant to even carve out a specific black powder season. I don't want to see this happen to archery season.

Also, compounds have pretty much hit their technical limit. You really can't make a bow store and release energy much more efficiently than they do now. And even at 80 percent let off most people can't comfortably shoot much more than 70 lbs of draw weight. After all you still have to draw that sucker back till the cams roll over. This fact alone kinda of puts a ceiling on bow power levels.

Crossbows on the other hand, who knows? Until now the market for them has been so small that there hasn't been nearly the research and developement that we have seen in the compound bow world. How much more powerful can they be made? Since you use a cocking device weight is not a limiting factory. Draw lenght is also not an issue as it is with bows. Who knows the upper limit for these things. I bet the guys who used to hunt muzzle loader season with a side hammer flintlock and patched lead balls never invisioned the modern inline either.

Todd

Your post is full of coulds and mights.......but those fears haven't proven true in Ohio, Arkansas and Wyoming......I have challenged anti crossbow people to name states that have shortened seasons or lowered bag limits because of an increase in harvest due to crossbows use during archery season.......I'm still waiting for an answer.....

Same thing with black powder seasons.......I have never heard of a single state that has cut the seasons or lowered the bag limit because of increased harvest due to improved technology.....maybe I've missed it????


You said "that was a different time and those guys had a very different agenda"........well, this is now......things change..... some are willing to change with the times, because of fear, some fight any change......but change is inevitable........

I predict that you will see an insignificant increase, if any at all, in your state's deer harvest due to crossbow legalization.......if I'm right, will you change your mind and support crossbow use???

I've been sitting by and reading these posts carefully. I have been bowhunting ever since I was strong enough to pull the legal weight requirement of 45 lbs. here in Oklahoma. Xbows are not legal in this state unless you have a handicapped permit. I have shot a cross bow and can honestly say that anyone could walk into a store two days before archery seasons opens and buy a cross bow set up and be proficient enough to use it around 30 to 40 yrds in 5 shots or less. I'd like to see someone pick up a modern compound bow, and be proficient to that range in 5 shots or less. Not that easy. If My state opened it up for xbows I'd live w/ it an still hunt w/ my compound. OKlahoma also has a draw hunt for some the biggest whitetails around in a traditional long bow or recurve only hunt. Nobody cries about not letting compounds in it. If they want to put in and hunt there, they pick up a traditional bow and practice and put in and hope they get drawn.

So in order to answer the question at hand "what am I afraid of?" Honestly? I'm afraid of all the people that would go buy a crossbow the day before season and deem themselves bowhunters. When most "notice I said most" bowhunters shoot at least a month in advance and know there equipment inside and out. I'm not saying all people w/ crossbows dont practice and know there equipment. If they opened archery to Xbows I'd say 80% of the people who swarmed it wouldnt. Just my own humble opinion.


Oh yeah one more thing about the treestand w/ no place to rest a Xbow. I have bought two types that I like in last year. I had to REMOVE the shooting rest so I could bowhunt out of them.

My father drew the Ammunition Plant crossbow hunt 2 years ago and I went with him to help.........there were approximately 200 people hunting that weekend with crossbows (see note below).......I couldn't hunt so I stayed around camp and got to see all the deer that were brough in to the check station........out of more than 200 people hunting with crossbows........less than 15 deer were checked in! Only *1* of those deer killed was a decent buck! So much for the idea of it being easy to kill a deer with a crossbow!!!.......by the way, this was the first hunt of the year for the ammunition plant, so the deer weren't spooked from over hunting.......


Do you have any idea how many deer are wounded and not recovered during this "traditional" hunt???? If you have been at the campground and seen all the racks on display.......did you ever ask where they came from??? Most of the sheds were picked up by hunters, but, according to the guys running the hunt, most of the racks were from deer that were shot with traditional equipment, not recovered by the hunter and found dead later! The biggest problem with restricting equipment on that hunt is, contrary to your statement, most of the people that draw the hunt DON'T practice enough to become proficient with their traditional equipment.....the result is wounded and unrecovered deer......lots of them!!!

Don't fool yourself into thinking that the hunters there don't complain about not being able to use compounds.....that's simply not true! The ONLY reason the hunt is restricted to traditional equipment is because of the base commander ........if it wasn't an army ammunition plant, you can bet your bottom dollar that the wildlife dept. would be flooded with complaints about the equipment restrictions.....since it's federal property, the wildlife dept. has NO say in what happens on the base.

This wasn't my first time on the base, I hunted it twice before they banned compounds........


Note:
(100 permits were drawn through the special hunt drawing, there is also a base employee drawing and those hunters that killed a doe the year before got a free pass in the next year)

I would guess you are talking about me my bolts// arrows are of the right spline for my xbow and the use of the 2117's was considerd OK by Barnett who I consulted on this as 2216 and 2117 are of the close to being the same for the same weight of bows according to the charts. Some of you have said that crossbows are inferior to bows I never said that or meant to imply that I feel that they both are effective in their given range and for most folks that is the same distance for most hunters. A lot of bow hunters out there cannot shoot for crap and you know it I bet you have heard the same "I hit 3 deer and never got any stories" I have been trying to convey the point here all along that I think crossbows are not that different from bows or the results obtained and should be allowed during bow season. If your inferior idea stood up than muzzle loader season would be before rifle season in a lot of states and it is not. I still say bottom line is that crossbows are no more different than bows with out the human factor as that does make a difference with both methods of hunting. I think SOME bow hunters do not want any more folks in the woods so yea they are selfish in my opinion. I still say every one says give them their own season well when do you propose that with all the seasons now? No matter where you would put it some one would complain and since it shoots a arrow I still say it belongs in archery season. The only disadvantage I see of the crossbow is no second shot or at least not a fast one. And if you shoot like you should then you should not need it. Jim

Kilincats I say the same thing with a compound bow I have seen kids at the local sport and hunting show pick up compound bows and releases and hit the targets after 10 minutes of instruction. They did well after the sights were adjusted to them. It is not that hard to shoot a bow with compounds and releases and good sights so you can hit a target. IT IS A OTHER THING TO SHOOT A BOW GOOD WHILE HUNTING AND THAT ALSO INCLUDES A CROSSBOW! Lots of variables enter hunting that you never see at a target range. SO what transpires at a range does not equal into what happens in the woods.