Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Mule Deer- can you tell me about Berger bullets?

Looking to possibly use them in a long range rig- .300 Win Mag. Specifically, want to use them on Whitetail deer in a beanfield scenario. Possibility of shots from 50 yards out to the horizon.

How do they perform on thin skin big game? I know I am asking a lot with that kind of variation in range/impact velocity.

What grain bullet would you recommend?

Sakoluvr
Im not MD but its going to depend on what twist your barrel has.
I believe the Berger sight has the required twist listed for the bullet on the web page.
Berger also has tech support line.
Other than that for deer I dought you will have any problems but you should be aware that at close range before the Berger has shed some of it velocity they can come unglued bigtime.
Bad angles,texas hart shots and such at close range will be.... messy.
They shine at longer range because first and formost, you have to hit it, to kill it.
Accuracy wise they are excellant.


dave

I haven't used any .30-caliber VLD heavier than 185 grains in the .300 Winchester, and that performed great out to 550 yards.
In my experience they work fine on deer-sized game, though not for rear-end shots.

With typical heart-lung shots they kill quicker, on average, than any other bullet I've used, because they do more internal damage. They don't just put a big hole in things, they turn lungs to soup and hearts inside out.

The bulk of my experience with VLD's is with feral goats, which are about the size of southern whitetails, though harder to put down. I tested the bullets at close range on dead goats, and couldn't get them to come apart prematurely even when shooting bone. That doesn't mean it can't happen, but I haven't seen it on deer-sized animals.

Typical performance is to penetrate a couple of inches and then come pretty much apart. The entrance hole will often be very difficult to find, since it's about like sticking a knitting needle into leather. Often you'll have to part hair to find the hole.

Typical modern bullet concepts such as retained weight don't apply. In fact I can only remember finding the rear end of one VLD with any core left. That was the last 1/4" of a 140-grain shot from a .264 Winchester into a big billy goat at over 400 yards. Most of the time you'll find lead and jacket fragments, though the bullets will exit some of the time on deer-sized game.

Thanks all.

Sakoluvr,,,,,,,,,,,As an add on to JB, I have very successfully used the 30 cal 168 VLDs on 40 hogs while using the 175s on three of them. All one shot and all pretty much DRT within 10 yards after impact.

Used a 190 VLD last year on a bull elk. From 328 yards, the 190 passed through the right shoulder bone. He collapsed within four yards of impact. With the help of some RL17, that elk load`s MV from my 300 WSM Ruger Frontier compact carbine was about 2850 fps at altitude.

I`d say that for your use, either the 175 or the 185 VLD would work and fly very well. Depends on which bullet your rifle prefers for better accuracys. Although, I wouldn`t overlook the 190 VLD either.

So I am guessing that in most instances, you will not get a pass through?

Depends on the size of the animal, the angle and the bullet.

When I shoot Bergers, I consider whether or not I get a pass-through irrelevant. Actually, I tend to think the same way about big game bullets in general.

I just can't seem to shake two holes are better than one. Must be the bowhunter in me <GRIN>.

I just dug out Rifle Bullets For The Hunter again, since I remembered some verbiage on the Bergers. When I first read it, I had no interest in them. Now I do. That's what's fun about the continuum of being thirsty for knowledge (aka loony). Something you had no interest in, is now a subject for research.

To be honest, the part about killing hogs DRT with the Berger did not impress me. I have done that many times, with various rifles/bullets. My 13 YO son has whacked a bunch of big hogs DRT with 120 gr NBT's and his 7mm-08. They were all neck shots though. We never recovered a bullet.

I may give the Bergers a try, but after reading the chapter again by Richard Mann stating that unless you are sure you'll be shooting at extended ranges (lower impact velocity turning the bullet into a max expanding bullet), there is not a good argument for using these frangible bullets on any big game animal, no matter how small, is making me rethink their use (for me).

Hunting beanfield, I often have deer pop out at 50 yards or 500 yards.

Whatever--but I don't think Richard had seen all that many animals shot with VLD's when he wrote that, though I'll check it out.

I've shot animals from 20 yards on out with Bergers, and never seen a "surface wound" yet. In fact one 185-grain .30-06 bullet just about cut the head off a goat at 20 yards with a neck shot. BIG exit!

Get you some Nosler BT's or Sierra Game Kings and be done with it.

MD- I think he kinda stated that killing the hogs came just as he was writing that chapter. I do value your opinion of them (Bergers), thanks for clarifying his statement.

The thing seems to be that when you read about someone usuing a Berger and all the DRT stuff,there always usuing heavy per caliber bullets..... 180,190g....etc.Thats fine and it should put the zap on small/mid sized game.Running that much bullet.
But do you see the same type of DRT when regular bullets weights per caliber say 130g .277,140g .284,150g .308 are used.?.....On crappie shots?A big heavy per caliber bullet comming unglued IS going to cause alot of damage no dought.But who uses 190g bullets to hunt deer with? I dont.
If 500 is the limit I'll still take a much flatter shooting rifle than any clicken and dicken set up, ie 190g pill, just to save time.
For 500 and under.
Ill take speed.

http://www.russellthornberry.com/2010/01/introducing-the-257-ferguson-hot-tamale.html
"Extreme velocity produces some astounding effects that seem to defy physical laws. This was brought to my attention years ago when I read an article in Volume I of P.O. Ackley�s classic �Handbook for Shooters & Reloaders.� Ackley noted that his experience proved that a .220 Swift was the most deadly caliber ever produced for deer and similar-sized game. His book was copyrighted in 1962, but his understanding of the compound effects of extreme velocity remains as true today as it was then.

In addition to some extensive shooting tests on animals, Ackley demonstrated his findings by firing two 48-grain bullets from a 220 Swift into half-inch armor plate on the front of a U.S. Army half-track. He also fired 100-grain bullets from a .270 Winchester and armor-piercing rounds from a government .30-06. All shots were fired from a distance of 30 feet.

The results were amazing. Both of the .220 Swift factory loads penetrated completely through the half-inch armor plate, leaving holes approximately 3/8 inch in diameter. The 100-grain .270 bullets managed no penetration whatsoever, leaving only shiny spots on the armor plate, and the .30-06 armor-piercing bullets made only shallow craters.

Suffice to say Ackley made his point about the compounded effects of hypervelocity (muzzle velocity of 4,00fps or more). His .220 Swift bullets exited the barrel at 4,100 fps, practically the same speed that the 100-grain .257 caliber bullet is leaving Ferguson�s Hot Tamale. That�s twice the bullet weight of the 48-grain .220 bullet at the same devastating speed! Little wonder the animals shot with the Hot Tamale were dropping in a heap.

Another and most important aspect of the effects of hypervelocity on game must be understood in order to fully understand its advantages. Liquid can�t be compressed, so when the force of hypervelocity impacts internal organs, the liquid contained therein becomes a deadly weapon in its own right. It explodes away from the impact with such force that it destroys all in its path. Crossing the 4,000-fps threshold of speed creates such intense hydrostatic shock within the animal that the liquid in its vital organs becomes something of an internal bomb. Magnum velocity of 3,000 fps does not approach this devastating threshold, regardless of bullet weights"

I practice what I preach.
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/3584822/1
Barrel life is short.
Still cant see running that heavy a bullet for deer.Or why I'd want to.



dave

I have had NOTHING stop pigs quicker than 155gr VLDs from a .308. And pigs die slower than any animal I have killed.

John

do not make the mistake of hitting a bull in the humerous with a 210 gr berger from a 300 win mag. big bones will cause the bullet to go to bits and risk further penetration. if you can make a perfect broadside shot there is seldom a more devastating bullet....hit a big bone and it is pure dissapointment.

I have taken a big mulie buck @ 280 yards, a whitetail @ 312 yards and too many hogs to count in the last year with my 300 wsm loaded with 168gr Berger vld hunting bullets. I got pass throughs on the deer with significant damage done to the vitals and pass throughs on the majority of the swine. Only the big ones on angles other than broadside. I really like the bullet and will continue to use them.

Dave,

I think the reason some people use the heavy for caliber Berger VLDs is to gain the advantage of the higher ballistic coefficients of the heavier bullets for long-range shooting (read: to minimize wind drift). From what I remember reading from Mule Deer, bullet weight did not matter much in his experience during VLD testing in New Zealand on feral goats and other animals (you can search over the past couple years here on the Campfire for his exact comments). From what I've read here at the Campfire, 115 grain .257" and 130 grain .264" Berger VLDs do well on deer-sized game.

There's more than one way to "skin a cat," and it appears Berger has found a very good one with their VLD design for some applications, and their VLDs don't require hyper velocity to work.

I can comment on the 115 VLD shot from 4 different 257 weatherby chambered rifles. In the last four years 17 animals have been taken, by me and six others which includes guys borrowing a rifle. Three elk, three mule deer and eleven coues wt. We are very impressed with the results. I cannot tell you much about the elk and mule deer, my friend hunts them in CO. He has had some pretty long shots on those animals out to 550 yds. The coues wt yardages: 237,250,276,328,350,385,two at 400,412,419,525.


To my knowledge only one animal required a second shot because my spotter was concerned my big coues wt at 525 yds was still standing after being hit. It would have expired shortly but I shot again as my spotter suggested. The first shot went in behind the rt shoulder and exited through the center of the "elbow" bone of the left shoulder making a 1 1/2" diameter exit hole.

I can show you this year's pic of entrance and exit from a small coues I shot at 400 yds. The deer was facing me at an extreme angle. It dropped so fast to the shot we had to look hard to see it in the brush.

entrance:


exit:


I just edited to say I would not consider using my 257 with those VLDs for larger game like elk. I prefer to use larger calibers with premium bullets.

My observations are that bullet weight isn't nearly as important in Berger VLD's as a lot of people would assume--especially those who haven't used them.

Probably the most impressive kill in the New Zealand testing was a huge red stag taken at 200 yards with a 115 VLD started at just under 3000 fps from a .257 Roberts. The bullet wasnt placed all that well, landing at the rear of the rib-cage.

In fact I was so sure that the stag was only wounded that I ran a round into the chamber of my .30-06, and was starting to aim when the stag fell over dead--15 feet and maybe 5 seconds after it was hit.

It turned out the little bullet had completely torn apart the liver, along with the rear of both lungs. If the stag had been shot in the same place with a typical "premium" bullet, it would have surely made it into the nearby timber.

So no, big heavy bullets aren't required for VLD's to work. And that stag was at least twice the size of a buig whitetail buck.

John,
Using Bergers, would you recommend heavy-for-the-caliber bullets, like their one weighing 180gr in 7mm even in non-magnums, or would you stay with medium weights?
Thank you!

Just an observation on the "why"--many who use Bergers use them to take advantage of the high BCs/low wind drift for long-range shots, and the long-for-caliber bullets are the best for that purpose.