Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Rimfires Why 22mag when 17HMR is so much better?

What I think is that everyone should shoot whatever they like and it doesn't matter. The way some people make a big deal arguing about this stuff, trying to prove themselves right and others wrong, is stupid. A few guys need to grow up.

One of the people I hunt with uses a 17 HMR, mine is a 22mag. We rimfire groundsquirrels from about 15-20' to about 75yds and not further than 100. The 22 makes a bigger gutpile. I don't care about 150 or 200yds with a rimfire. Explosions are what's fun, plop and fall over isn't interesting. The 22mag has always worked really well for me on targets up to rockchuck size and ammunition price is reasonable by the case. So I've never cared about changing. For more power/range I'll use a 17AH which costs about the same (or less) to shoot as a 17HMR and is in a whole different league. I don't care what people shoot. Someone likes the HMR, then they should use it......if someone likes the 22Mag, same thing. It's about what you like and it's nobody's business to tell you you're wrong.

There seems to be a mythology about the various 17's dating to the days of PO Ackley. He reports some results with various 17 center-fires on big game that ignited my imagination. The "Speed Kills" fraternity expected some fantastic results from 4000fps and they reported them. No doubt these little rounds work well sometimes even on bigger game. They even invented the concept of bullet rotational energy to explain the fantastic results they were reporting

I was an impressionable kid in the 70's and had to have a 17 Remington. I used one for a while and found mine would give very inconsistent results on game over 15 pounds or so. Tissue destruction was in line with kinetic energy but no magic effect was noted. It is not a big game round in my estimation. Eventually the wilder claims for the CF 17's retreated and it won some respect as a rather specialized varmint round.

It seems a similar aura of mythology surrounds the little 17 HRM. I have one of these as well. Again tissue destruction and killing power is about were the Kinetic Energy figures are...that is a bit less than the 22Mag. The 20 grain XTP is actually a pretty good game bullet with good expansion and weight retention. The 40 grain Winchester 22 Mag is better on game over 5 pounds, at least under 100 yards. The 50 grain 22Mag bullets are an even better game bullet in the 22 Mag. The 40 grain HP explodes gophers a bit better than the 17 to 125 yards. Past 125 yards the 17 is a bit easier to hit with. In a wind both pretty much suck. Even the little 22 Hornet leaves both in the dust when it comes to hitting power and versatility.

I have noticed no magic in either rimfire round. I like both. For game over 5 pounds I'd pick the 22 Mag. For game over 25 pounds I'd pick a 22 center-fire. For game over 100 pounds I'd reach for a 6mm, for game over 300 pounds I use a 358 Norma.

Everything has it's niche. The 17HMR's niche is pest control for sub 5 pound targets from 50-175 yards. It's neat to be able to see the bullet impact. It's nice to not reload 500 rounds a day that is expended in good gopher country. For larger pests the 22 Magnum is a marginally better choice.

My opinions on the hitting power of the two rounds is based on a lot of trigger time on gophers mostly. It is pretty obvious that the 22 Mag explodes gophers a lot better at close range. There is less of a difference out past 100 yards. I admit that my hitting percentage past 100 yards goes up with the 17 due to it's flatter trajectory.

The thoughts on rotational energy creating some extra hitting power has been pretty much discredited. It amounts to very little extra energy. Again to me the KE pretty much explains the tissue destruction I have witnessed.

How that compares is prarphrased below from Chuck Hawk's site

FROM CHUCK HAWK
* .17 HMR, 17 grain V-Max = ME 245 ft. lbs., 185 ft. lbs. at 50 yards, 136 ft. lbs. at 100 yards, 99 ft. lbs. at 150 yards, 72 ft. lbs. at 200 yards.
* .17 HMR, 20 grain XTP = ME 250 ft. lbs., 187 ft. lbs. at 50 yards, 137 ft. lbs. at 100 yards, 99 ft. lbs. at 150 yards, 72 ft. lbs. at 200 yards.
* .22 WMR, 30 grain TNT = ME 325 ft. lbs., 200 ft. lbs. at 50 yards, 120 ft. lbs. at 100 yards, 80 ft. lbs. at 150 yards.
* .22 WMR, 40 grain JHP = ME 324 ft. lbs., 230 ft. lbs. at 50 yards, 162 ft. lbs. at 100 yards.

Here we see a different story. The .22 WMR starts with about a 75 ft. lb. advantage in kinetic energy at the muzzle. At 50 yards the 40 grain .22 bullet is carrying about 45 more ft. lbs., and at 100 yards the 40 grain .22 bullet still has a 25 ft. lb. advantage over the .17 bullets. At 150 yards the .17 HMR has an energy advantage of about 20 ft. lbs. over the 30 grain .22 bullet, and we have no figures for the 40 grain bullet beyond 100 yards."

Energy numbers are about as worthless as the price of admission FWIW IMHO...

I disagree. Energy is a valid measure of the amount of work the projectile will do. Unlike most of the "formulas" invented it has a sound scientific basis. In my humble experience it also has done a pretty good job (along with projectile construction) of explaining wound channels from 17HMR to 12 Gauge Slugs and everything in between.


We agree however that the 22Mag has more oomph than the 17. Energy, momentum, cross-sectional area, any way you cut it the 22 Mag hits harder.

Yep !

Not too impressed by energy figures myself, especially in context of 2-3 digits.

I don't own a .22 Mag, and I really like the HMR, but there's no doubt a .22 Mag hits "harder" within it's range capabilities. The HMR is easier to hit with at extended distances, though, and that is what makes it popular.
I just read a thread on Ausvarmints.com (an Aussie website) where three guys took their HMRs out for a day of rabbit shooting, and ended up with 18 foxes and 40-50 rabbits for the day/night episode. That's a remarkable day, anywhere, anytime.
They had no issues with the HMR's hitting abilities, or it's killing power (even on the foxes) but I have to feel that most of that is due to the ease with which the cartridge shoots, it's simply easier to shoot well, no recoil, fun to play with, makes it more fun to shoot.
Those guys get a LOT of practice, rabbits, cats, and foxes are in abundance, too.


Anything a feller shoots a lot, he's bound to like better as he gets more familiar with it.

I don't own a .22 Magnum, and probably will not, because I have a Hornet I can load the same way, but I won't throw rocks at a WMR, either.

Shoot what you like, that's what they're made for, and enjoy them all.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/22WMR.html

http://www.brassfetcher.com/17HMR.html

Both have their place and purpose.

We do agree on the .22 magnum but that's it...

Holes kill critters, not "energy"...

"energy" may make them fly farther or blow up more but holes kills stuff....

A .223 through the heart kills better than 7,000 ft lbs. of energy up the ass...

Energy is a prehistoric measurement utilized before the last decade of unbelievable projectiles available to the masses that makes any and all energy arguments moot...

Add in the fact that you're even talking "energy" with cartridges so relatively puny is just grasping at straws IMHO...

But regardless, the .22 magnum trumps it in all regards related to killing...

I'm always amazed that any discussion of cartridges on the Campfire ends up as a put-down of any cartridge that isn't somebody's pet.

Of course, the original post in this thread was guaranteed to start this one off in that direction.

The truth is that the .17 HMR and .22 Magnum are very different rounds, despite using the same basic case. The differences between the weight and bore-area of their bullets are very much like the differences between the .223 and .280.
So why in hell would their performance be directly comparable?

Personally, I find all the present easily-available rimfire rounds very useful, with niches for each, the reason I own rifles chambered for the .17 Mach II, .17 HMR, .22 Long Rifle and .22 Magnum. And I shoot all of them every year, on various kinds of small game and varmints, just as I shoot a wide variety of centerfires on varmints and big game.
_________________________
John

"Banks are better than trains. They're always in the same place, and you know the money's there."--Butch Cassidy

grin...

Whenever someone claims the 17HMR isn't good for (insert whatever little mammal you want here) I always wonder if they are aware that there ARE other kinds of ammo out there than the 17 grain VMAX! I can't help but think the 20 grain XTP is perfect for fox and more than adequate for coon, possum, woodchuck, etc. I carried my hummer stoked with 20 grain XTP's many times while calling bobcat in AZ and I never felt undergunned inside of 100 yards or so.

I never really intended to shoot a yote with my 17HMR but if one showed up close enough and presented the right shot I'd take it with the 20 grain XTP bullet.

My uncle has killed almost 20 woodchucks at his farm with his 17HMR shooting 17 gr VMAXs but I gave him a couple of boxes of 20 grain XTPs and he's using those now. I don't think I'd use the VMAX's on anything bigger than a rabbit if I had a choice, but I imagine they'd turn a fox's insides to jelly if hit perfectly broadside in a pinch. I'd still much prefer the 20 gr XTP. I don't think I'd consider shooting a yote with a VMAX but I do not have the experience in killing them to really make an educated decision on that.

I definitely don't consider a 17HMR a true predator cartridge, but if that's all you got then load up with the 20 grain XTP's, keep your range close and hold out for perfect shots. I know there are 17HMR full metal jacket rounds out there, but I wonder if they are legal to hunt with. They'd be super for head shots I bet, if it was legal to hunt with them. Shooting a yote in the brain with a hummer shooting FMJ's seems akin to Karamojo Bell brain-shooting elephants with 6.5 and 7mm FMJ's.

Given a choice, I'd pick something other than my 17HMR for pred hunting since I'd be able to extend my range but I'll be damned if I sit home instead of hunt just because I only feel comfortable shooting at bobcats and fox out to 100 yards with it. The last gray fox I called in was only about 20 yards away in a wash, would have been an easy shot with my hummer, but she had a pup with her and I let her walk.

I haven't ever owned a 22 Mag so I can't comment on that round. I think it would be nice to have a lever-action 22 Mag with aperture sights to keep in the truck. That just seems like a fun little truck gun that would do a lot and be cheap enough to plink with.

In any case, this is a nice thread, I enjoyed reading through everyone's comments.

Woohoo 3 whole yotes, we better all get rid of out .223s and go out and buy a .17hummer to yote hunt with as this proves it is a great yote round,,,,

I don't shoot itty bitty critters on a regular basis, tree rats get subsonic .22LR HPs,,, things I shoot tend to get bigger fast after tree rats, I'd rather use something that wasn't invented to splatter gophers or impress the newest, fastest crowd,,,, just no nitch for the .17 to fill around here.

Yes. Not just cartridges......bullet, powder, twist rate, barrelmaker, barrel length, contour, stock, scope, etc. Some people on here think whatever they like is the only thing, use something different and they say it's because you're the dumb one. Petty overcompensation taken to the extreme. Too many threads get ugly and are ruined because of this.

+1!

Jeff

Well put as always Dan!

I have three .22mags. A Sav 24 in .22mag over 20ga, a Win 9422 lever, and a Rem 597 auto. The auto gets most of my use. My .17HMR is a scoped 17-LP 12" Anschutz pistol with the left hand bolt and a 5 shot mag. It is sweet, but if I could only have one, it would be a .22mag. Good luck.

Energy is a scientifically valid measure of the amount of work being done. Nothing prehistoric about it. The 22 Magnum has more of it than the 17HMR at least at reasonable ranges. Combining energy with projectile action explains the wound channels I have seen in tissue, wet newsprint, mudholes or other media better than any other measure. It helps me make sense of rounds as diverse as the 17 HMR to the 45-70. Other folks can believe what they want but energy combined with an idea of bullet action helps me make pretty good predictions that have held up pretty well in the real world.