Home Forums Hunting & Shooting BPCR Special .45-90 WCF in Winchester 1878 Catalog

In the Manis/Winchester book in the section on the 1876 Winchester, he makes a comment on special .45-90 WCF ammunition made for a short time in 1878 with 450 grain bullets and 90 grains of powder intended to be fired in the Model 1876. He does not elaborated any further, nor does he name his source for the information, which is a pity since he worked at Winchester! Since the Model 1876 was only chambered for the .45-75 WCF until 1879, how could this ammunition have been used in the mechanism of the repeater? I have heard that this special ammunition was mentioned in the May 1878 Winchester catalog, but I do not have access to that publication, so cannot verify it. Anyone out there got any further info??

Yes there is "mention" of the 45-90 in the Madis Winchester book in the 1876 section BUT as Madis says "(Model 1886- author's note)".

The 45-90 would never fit in a 76' and no 45 caliber 76' cartridge would begin to hold 90 gr of FFg and a bullet. (and it might take the weak toggle link system apart)

45-75 case OAL 1.89", 45-90 case OAL 2.40".

You want a 45-90 buy an 86', rolling block, Sharps sidehammer or a Highwall. Your eyes will thank you!

I don't have the 78 catalog and I can't find any mention of it in the 79.
However they could have done it using smaller grained powder, and more compression, or just simply compressed the powder more. They likely would have dropped it after a short time as fouling trouble may have been excessive, and accuracy may not have been what they expected. Winchester prided themselves on the accuracy of all their rifle at that time.
Keeping in mind that the factories of that time period were looking to improove performance, there were several things that came about. The original 45-90 came from Springfields attempt to make the trapdoor a better candidate fot the 1000 yd creedmoor event , but as Charles Wingate reported the recoil and fouling were to severe to be of practical use to the marksman, so was born the 2.4 and 2.6 inch cases. The 44-77 bn was also loaded with 90 grs of powder with the same intent and met the same fate, so was born the 44-90 bottleneck , they just increased the case from 2.25 to 2 5/8 to better accept the larger powder charge.

THEY NEVER DID IT. STOP GUESSING AND READ THE MADIS (not Manis) BOOK!!!!
My friend has FIVE original Winchester cartridge boards, there is NO 45-90 that will fit in a 76'.
This is not rocket science, let's not start another "gun myth" that leads some fool to put the bolt from the weak toggle link 76' action into his head!

Don't let facts get in the way of misread books or wishful thinking!

"The 1876 was introduced to celebrate the American Centennial, and earned a reputation as a durable and powerful hunting rifle. Originally chambered for the new .45-75 WCF cartridge, versions in .40-60, .45-60 and .50-95 Express followed; the '76 in the latter chambering is the only repeater known to have been used in any numbers by the professional buffalo hunters.[4] The Canadian North-West Mounted Police used the '76 in .45-75 as a standard long arm for many years with 750 rifles purchased for the force in 1883;[5] the Mountie-model '76 carbine was also issued to the Texas Rangers. Theodore Roosevelt used an engraved, pistol-gripped half-magazine '76 during his early hunting expeditions in the West and praised it."

What is so hard for that [bleep] filled brain pan or yours to figure out it is quite possible that they tried to compress 90 grs of powder in the 45-75 case? Just like the 44-90 was born from original attempts to put 90 grs of powder in a 44-77. It didn't work so well,due mainly to heavy fouling from the heavy compression, so remington and sharps stretched the case and the rest is history.

Ranch, looks like somebody's got sand in their crack again, no?

Naw I think it's stickier than sand.
I'm wondering if the confusion may not be the express round? 50 caliber 300 gr bullet 95 grs of powder. (1f, they didn't load smaller powder in cartrides then,except if they were trying to get more powder in a ......)

If being right equates in your simple mind to "sand in the crack", then you meet the "Stupid is as stupid does test".

As for Mr Ranch 13, he can't come up with a SINGLE fact to support his BS, in spite of the fact that he lives in Wyoming and could get out from under his desk and drive over to Cody and find out the truth. BTW a 44-90 would not fit in a 76' either, so strike two for your expertise. A 44-90 is 2&5/8" long a 44-75 2&1/4", so it would not fit either. Maybe as well as the Madis book he needs a copy of Cartridges of the World!

My "bleep" brain pan can read as it appears your's cannot.
You can produce NO FACTUAL DATA to support this idiot who apparently can not read or doesn't even own the Madis book. Hell, he can't even get the author's name correct!

You are a typical Wyoming macho pigheaded fool (yes I live there) who would rather argue until Hell freezes over, rather than admit that he is DEAD WRONG.

Take you sad ass over to Cody and spend a week going through all the Winchester records. If you can find a SINGLE reference to Winchester EVER producing an 1876 rifle chambered for a 45-90 cartridge and cataloging it for sale, I will buy you a brand new replica one in 45-75 as long as you agree to stuff 90 grains of 4F and a 500 grain bullet in it and shoot it. Just make sure your "I'm stupid" insurance policy is in force and your family doesn't want a open coffin.

Just as a thought, you really shouldn't run your yap with no evidence to support a thing you say. Next you'll be telling us there's a UFO sitting in your barn!

Now put up or shut up you sorry azzwipe.
_________________________
Newt-Condi 2012

Anybody care to show where I said they tried to put one of the 44's in a Winchester, or where I said they could of for that matter????
Come on Rick time for the Bosslady to find somewhere else to play...

I'd be quite honored, Boss-Douchelady is using it's ONE POST A Day to schmoose you, you big Wyoming macho Hunk, You.

At least it quit PMing me,......Bwa ha,....

Happy New Year , Don !

GTC

Hey Greggor. Happy New Year to you, give mom my best.
How's this global warming thing working out for ya down there...

14* here at daybreak,.....it was 7* out at the range Sunday when the first loonies rolled in.

I was wrong about The Boss lady,....and per a longtime solemn promise will continue to post these oddball "PMs", though frankly I think it's more like PMS....

put your coffee down,.....

title line:
" If one post a day can save some damned fool "
content:
"from killing himself by trying something that will destroy a rifle, then I guess it's not a waste of time.
You might note that NOTHING I have said has been refuted.

He apparently has not read what the Madis book says.
He cannot produce the mystery catalog or any evidence from the Cody Museum to back up the foolish BS from the OP.

In other words, to make it REAL simple. I am right, they are wrong.

Calling me names as is the standard response of you and the other web brats resort to when the facts get in the way of your "we own the site" agenda.

Musta been hell to have the girls kick your azz at dodgeball!

Again: put up or shut up. I have the FACTS, you have a big abusive mouth."
..................PM ends

Yeah,well BossDoucheLady you certainly are a chit hot raving compendium of knowledge, and us hicks that know little or nothing about toggle link actions, or Black Powder Cartridge Rifles should (in your diseased mind) "DEFER" to this?

Don,....put alla' your stuff away , and keep it under lock and key. We need to do a complete "Safety Verification Process" before touching any more of these dangerous devices wherin DOOM LOOMS. OK, ...if you just HAVE to shoot, please confine yourself to a .22 LR, until I get back.

Yo,...BossDoucheLady,......have you actually ever RUN a BPC Compression Die set up,....indeed, do you even KNOW what one is ?

A friend down the road has one of those '76 replicas in .45-75. I'm going to borrow a case and see what it will actually hold.
No, I am NOT going to seat a 550 grain CB in it,.....I'll stay in the "Express Bullet Realm",......willing to bet I can get MORE then 90 grains into that case, too.

....you should stick to the Carolina .375 HH Model Seventy grade of bluster, OldDouche,......you're completely lost here.

GTC

Opps, we both know what's going to happen when you get the compression die out.

I did however find in the 1879 catalog the load that the op was talking about. It's not a standard catalog item. It's contained in a letter Oliver F wrote to some refute some critic that had said those guns would come apart at the seams with the 75 gr load.
Turns out they started the proof testing of the 76 with a 105 gr charge of government powder and a 450 gr Martini bullet.
A tad bit more information. The reason they used the Us Government powder , it was as they called it a harder finished powder and was more suited to heavy compression than was the sporting grades of powder from Dupont etc , they normally recommended loading for their cartridges.
Shameful they don't print that sort of stuff on the bottom of midol boxes maybe some around here might learn something while they're squattin on the pot...

I dunno why it's PMing me,.....

It does leave me basking in a turdlike glow, though...

GTC


More from Douchella:

Nice quote but.....
BossLady Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 03/22/10
Posts: 804
You still ducked the OPs claim that Winchester cataloged the 76 in 45-90. It really doesn't matter how much powder you can put in a case. What matters is the FACT that is was NEVER a Winchester product. But what else to expect from the brat pack other than trying to move the subject OFF the OPs ORIGINAL claim/question ?

Insofar as BPCR rifle go, I have yet to see you at any of the matches we attend nor am I aware it's a big target sport in Alaska.

The real 45-90 used 90 gr of BP and was usually loaded with a 350 gr bullet (Express cartridge). You see if you can cram all that in a 45-75, run it through the magazine AND then shoot it. (don't forget the before & after pictures)

Save the insults and concentrate on the facts. That might give you status as an adult.

Oh my the greatest expert of all doesn't even know the winchester 45-90 was a 300 gr bullet, the 350 loaded in the same case was called the 45-85, and just for kicks we'll let him know the 405 gr bullet in the same case was called the 45-80..
Alaska who the puck mentioned Alaska?

Amazing all this info you are pulling out of thin air, can we ALL see a copy of the letter from Ollie ?

And, hate to mention it, but we are STILL off the OP's post, where he misquotes Madis and claims the 45-90 was a 76 cartridge.

I know getting back on topic is never popular among some of you "experts", but how much powder you can stuff in a CATALOGED 1876 cartridge is not the question. What is at issue is the fact that Winchester NEVER chambered the 45-90 case in the 76' (regardless of bullet weight) because it would not fit. Really simple and apparently too complex to grasp.

I'm still waiting for the catalog showing the 76 chambered to handle the 45-90 cartridge OR any expert (that is a real expert) that can produce a lettered 76 using that case.

Bluster all you want but you're wrong, the OP is wrong and were George still with us, he'd laugh you out of the room.

Also note you ducked the BPCR match issue as any fool who shoots in them knows what a BP compression die is. Can we see some pics of your BPCR rifles, entry tickets and trophies ? Laffin!

Finally calling on censorship as your last gasp really shows what a wuss you are. If you don't have the facts, cannot prove your claim, then fall back on shutting down the one who DARES to confront your errors.

BTW this is the book you need. I believe I have the last new unopened, signed copy w.Dust jacket for sale in the USA.
It could be yours for a lot of money......

"Also note you ducked the BPCR match issue as any fool who shoots in them knows what a BP compression die is. Can we see some pics of your BPCR rifles, entry tickets and trophies ? Laffin!"

Jeez,...you REALLY are [bleep]' clueless, aren't you.....?

GTC

"
BTW this is the book you need. I believe I have the last new unopened, signed copy w.Dust jacket for sale in the USA.
It could be yours for a lot of money...... "

Bet we can do it on one of those slick 'lay Away' plans,...eh ?

GTC

Would that layaway plan include a certain model 70?

Ed

My turdlineess multiplies,....

Today's Jewel,

PM title "Layaway"

Content: "I guess you must be in your teens to have never heard of JC Penny or Sears Roebuck both of whom pioneered layaway for their customers. I also assume you must not look at Gunbroker.com, Auctionarms.com, Gunsamerica.com either, because if you did you would find many sellers offer layaway.

My "slick" layaway plan is hardly that. All terms and conditions are stated up front and you would be surprised how many folks use it.

Sorry the book is "one of one" and money up front is required.

Now that you have AGAIN tried a lateral arabesque to duck the REAL subject. Why don't you actually try getting back on the topic of 1876 Winchesters chambered for the 45-90 case ?

As for BPCR guns and matches, again nice try....you made the claim now back it up or zip it up!

Any idea who the old man in the big hat is ? I thought not...