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who here uses a 24x or even higher magnification scope when testing loads then switch back to their intended scope after a desired load is found?
Clos
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Campfire Kahuna
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Everyone with a Cough Silencer around their neck and a Butt Buddy in their back pocket..............
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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oh well... 
It's a great life if you don't weaken..
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Campfire Kahuna
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You're learnin'............
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Everyone with a Cough Silencer around their neck and a Butt Buddy in their back pocket.............. LMAO! TFF! This place is Comedy Central......  Not making fun of those who do use a big scope to test....but I don't bother myself,little groups generally come nicely with standard hunting scopes of 4X,6X,etc.if the rifle is worth beans.....all you have to do is hold.....and squeeze... 
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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I'll fess up. I did that on a Win 70 in 22-250 that was MOA at 100 yds and lucky to hit the target at 200. Didn't help much, and the rifle went down the road to someone wanting to rebarrel it.
My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost....
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Big Stick, are you making fun of my Cough Silencer and Butt Buddy? I believe the combined effect of having both of them on my person while hunting breaks up my silhouette and adds to the camouflage effect of my ghillie suit that I use while hunting in my ground blind.
Selmer "Daddy, can you sometime maybe please go shoot a water buffalo so we can have that for supper? Please? And can I come along? Does it taste like deer?" - my 3-year old daughter 
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I like less power with better eye relief....just use a lil' bigger target
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I do. I've got a steel tube Weaver T12 that I use. I've had it on everything from a .222 to a .338. I tend to prefer scopes with more modest power on my hunting rifles, 1.5x5, 2x7 and so having the higher power helps me better grade the groups. In addition to the rather obvious advantages, it allows me to see the bullet holes w/o the hassle of a spotting scope.
Aim for the exit hole.
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so having the higher power helps me better grade the groups. In addition to the rather obvious advantages, it allows me to see the bullet holes w/o the hassle of a spotting scope.
Clos
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yeap i have been known to do that espicially with a new rifle
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I think if you have the scope to use, then go for it. If you are ladder testing then 300 yards is better than 100, and a high power scope works better for that. No harm in eliminating all the variables you can to save your barrel from wasted shots. That assumes you want the best possible accuracy at the end of the day. If your objective is just minute of moose, then probably a waste of time.
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And yes, I have used higher power scopes on my rifles for load development, mostly so that I can see bullet impacts without a spotting scope at 200 yds.
Selmer "Daddy, can you sometime maybe please go shoot a water buffalo so we can have that for supper? Please? And can I come along? Does it taste like deer?" - my 3-year old daughter
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Many folks are under the illusion that much higher scope power has a corresponding effect on group size - it's just not so.
Try groups w/ variable scopes set at low, then high powers. Not much change. High power is a seduction that seldom bears value in the hunting fields, in my experience. Big game is big.
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Campfire Ranger
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GF1,
What's the minute of angle for a deer at 100 yards and one at say 500 yards?
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Many folks are under the illusion that much higher scope power has a corresponding effect on group size - it's just not so.
Try groups w/ variable scopes set at low, then high powers. Not much change. Yep, those benchrest guys, where "close" isn't close enough, use a straight 4X all the time.  There is no way that seeing better (bigger) is not going to help. High power is a seduction that seldom bears value in the hunting fields, in my experience. Big game is big. True, you might not need to measure accuracy in fractions of MOA when shooting big game, but the original question (see below) was regarding load development, and trying to make sure that you're shooting the best you can to measure results against other loads. Develop with high magnification, then swap to a "hunting" scope before going afield. who here uses a 24x or even higher magnification scope when testing loads then switch back to their intended scope after a desired load is found?
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Campfire Kahuna
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HBR agg's aren't larger in their sizing,in a lineal X extrapolation to say LV.
Though admittedly,you don't shoot much,so a guess is as good as you can do.
Keep 'em coming,you're on FIRE!...............
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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*** You are ignoring this user ***
Toggle the display of this post
Huh?
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I am not saying the groups are the same at 3x as at 9x, but that we've overblown the small difference the extra magnification gets us. May be worth it to some, not to others.
Ringman, don't get your question? A pretty big whitetail has a topline to bottomline across chest area of about 20" = 20 MOA at 100; at 500, 4 MOA. But you knew that...
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Campfire Ranger
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Big Stick: I use a 36 power scope for Rifle accuracy testing (I buy and sell a LOT of Rifles!) and I also use the 36 power scope for load testing/development for my Rifles that I intend on keeping long term.
And yet I own neither of the "products" you allude that are prerequisites for my using my 36 power scope as I do.
There is a SIMPLE reason for using the high powered scope for "load testing" - I am guessing that simple reason escapes you?
Your posting is uninformed, ill mannered and not funny.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
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GF1: If your contention were true then Bench Rest Competitors would all be using the much CHEAPER "3x" scopes like you allude to!
Your contention is erroneous - for obtaining the ultimate accuracy from a Rifle MANY people know its worth the dollars to use MORE scope power.
There is a LARGE difference in obtainable accuracy from a Rifle when one compares the results from a 3 power scope to that of the same Rifle/load using a 24 power scope.
I know - I done it!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
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Clos: I used to use a 24 power Leupold scope for my load development and Rifle testing chores - then once that was ascertained I would replace my 24 power testing scope with what ever scope I wanted permanently on said Rifle.
That worked out so well for me that I now have a 36 power scope that is dedicated to use just for load development and for testing some new to me Rifles accuracy potential.
I know its a bit of a pain to first mount a very high power scope and do the load testing for a particualr Rifle - THEN having to dismount that scope and install the chosen scope for said Rifle - but I am convinced it is worth the effort.
In fact a couple of my cheapskat.... uh I mean frugal friends have taken a positive attitude to this regimen of mine and have asked to borrow my "testing scope" for their testing - being the big softie I am I have given in on several occassions to thier requests.
Lesson to be learned when "loaning" out your testing scope: is to make certain there is a defined duration of said LOAN.
I found that an undefined loan out period causes hardship and consternation for the loaner and not so for the loanee.
Yes, clos, I have done this switching of scopes for quite some time now and recommend it to the person that has lots of Rifles and/or is serious about obtaining the most accurate loads for their Rifle QUICKLY!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
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Big Stick:Your posting is uninformed, ill mannered and not funny. True, but on a positive note, he is consistent.
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Hunter Benchrest vs Light Varmint Class
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GF1: If your contention were true then Bench Rest Competitors would all be using the much CHEAPER "3x" scopes like you allude to!
Your contention is erroneous - for obtaining the ultimate accuracy from a Rifle MANY people know its worth the dollars to use MORE scope power.
There is a LARGE difference in obtainable accuracy from a Rifle when one compares the results from a 3 power scope to that of the same Rifle/load using a 24 power scope.
I know - I done it!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy Never said there is no difference - clearly there is - just that the difference in the context of hunting rifles is overstated. For example, I have a 3x9x36 Swaro scope on a highly accurate Ruger #1 300 H&H; my groups at 9x are only marginally smaller, on average, than those at 3x. If one is developing loads for extreme accuracy, as in highly precise small bores for varmints or targets, I agree that the higher powers are important. On good targets, just not that much difference in aiming error that the higher power scope will help (in context of lighter hunting rifles).
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Campfire 'Bwana
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What's a "Ladder Test"?  This another Internet-Speak Term for something we've doing for 50 years, but now we have a term for it...?
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Sounds like a swell idea. Anyone have a suggestion which 36X scope I should get? I need to shake down my 358Norma this Spring....
(Please enable sarcasm detector!)
Dutch.
Sic Semper Tyrannis
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What's a "Ladder Test"? This another Internet-Speak Term for something we've doing for 50 years, but now we have a term for it...? I don't remember it from when I was reloading 50 years ago, but it has been around a long time. It goes by different names but same basic principle. Some links: Ladder Test OCW Load Development Incremental Load Development
Last edited by Ron_AKA; 01/23/11.
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who here uses a 24x or even higher magnification scope when testing loads then switch back to their intended scope after a desired load is found? I have started dong that occasionally when shooting a rifle with a 2x7 on it. Temporarily put a 3.5-10 on and it made a diff in groups. Must have something to do with 54 year old eyes--'cause I didn't have this problem 30 years ago.........  Casey
Casey
Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Big Stick: I use a 36 power scope for Rifle accuracy testing (I buy and sell a LOT of Rifles!) and I also use the 36 power scope for load testing/development for my Rifles that I intend on keeping long term.
And yet I own neither of the "products" you allude that are prerequisites for my using my 36 power scope as I do.
There is a SIMPLE reason for using the high powered scope for "load testing" - I am guessing that simple reason escapes you?
Your posting is uninformed, ill mannered and not funny.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy I've more than one rifle and curiously enough,more than one scope. I'm all ears on your X-power magnification,to accuracy denotation extrapolation(s). It's all between your ears and will be funnier than hell. In fairness,few is a simple as you,which ain't a compliment.............
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Campfire Kahuna
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Huh? Poking your head in the sand,ain't exactly a new move for you. Congratulations?...............
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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I have a 32x scope I use on new rifles,to see their potential.
I think being able to quarter a 1" spot on the target with the cross hair is an aid to accuracy,as opposed to covering it,and then some.
I bought a commercial 98 in '06,for a donor,and put the 32 on,just to see.Grabbed some old loads I had made up for cmp practice.damned if it didnt go 1/2",straight off.
best it'd do (or me) with 2x7 was 1 1/4".
**********************
[the member formerly known as fluffy}
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Campfire 'Bwana
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who here uses a 24x or even higher magnification scope when testing loads then switch back to their intended scope after a desired load is found? I do and I'm unapologetic about it. IMO it's indisputable that higher magnification allows for more precise bench shooting and precise shooting is the primary objective of testing a load's accuracy. I enjoy and use a 24X fine crosshair scope and punched this .15" 3-shot cluster and have no reason to believe higher magnification did not play a significant role. The fine crosshairs allow me to center within the wider .1" lines that grid the target shown at 100 yards. I can assure that I can not do that at 4x or 6x and that I enjoyed punching that group more than printing yet another 3/4" trifecta. FWIW, that group was made with a used Savage 12 BVSS 22-250, old Japanese made Tasco 24x AO, used Lee Challenger press, Varget dipped with a spoon, weighed on a temperamental ancient Lyman D-7 scale, untrimmed and unturned RP UMC brass, Hornady ND seater and Lee Collet neck die... OT ![[Linked Image]](https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_BhsdtnBSFgM/TPlNsZLuNgI/AAAAAAAABJg/sar3moXs-vM/s288/IMG_2783.JPG)
"I can't be canceled, because, I don't give a fuuck!"
--- Kid Rock 2022
Holocaust Deniers, the ultimate perverted dipchits: Bristoe, TheRealHawkeye, stophel, Ghostinthemachine, anyone else?
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I should have just
bought a [bleep] T3...
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Campfire Kahuna
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6x42 Montucky Whizzum MPAJ.................... ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/BigStick/Stuff/Rifle%20Stuff/WhimperIsClueless.jpg)
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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You are absolutley full of schitt and clueless as to what you are talking about...but you are a entaining azz..will give you that..
Clasic Dipstick.
LC
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Campfire Kahuna
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Sub .5MOA at 700+ yards,with a 6x42/Montucky/162 combo. RINKYou gals that don't shoot,is great for giggles...keep it rollin'!.................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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I like to use the scope that is going to ride on the rifle permanently for load development. By the time your done with load workup you know if the scope/rifle combo is a good match.
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Dunno if my vote counts or not since the highest powered scope I have is my Leupold, Vari-XIII, 4 1/2-14 Tactical. But I'm using it to work up loads for my .270 WSM. My other rifles were bought before I had the larger Leupold so it wasn't used on them. Once this project is finalized, the WSM is gonna wear a 2-7, Vari-X II.
Bear in Fairbanks
"Unless you're the lead dog, the scenery never changes."
Amazingly, I've lived long enough to see a President who is worse than Carter.
And finally,
Gun control means using two hands.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I like to use the scope that is going to ride on the rifle permanently for load development. By the time your done with load workup you know if the scope/rifle combo is a good match. I agree, but sometimes it is a good idea to take a scope that is proven and use it to test the rifle it is going on. After I know the rifle is capable, I'll generally use a new scope and verify the new scope is good to go. I generally use one of my 4.5-14x40 nikons for testing, not because they are "higher powered" (compared to the 4x or 3-9's we use) but because they have proven to be very repeatable and consistent on my other rifles. One poor Nikon has a couple of ring marks on it but is still working great and I think it is retired for this intended purpose (has been tested on 5 different rifles) and is going to stay on the rifle its on . ![[Linked Image]](http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x401/chiefbsa/001-19.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x401/chiefbsa/001-25.jpg)
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Campfire 'Bwana
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You've clearly missed the dime! Again this phenomenon prevails.... OT
"I can't be canceled, because, I don't give a fuuck!"
--- Kid Rock 2022
Holocaust Deniers, the ultimate perverted dipchits: Bristoe, TheRealHawkeye, stophel, Ghostinthemachine, anyone else?
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You've clearly missed the dime! Again this phenomenon prevails.... OT I had a guy seriously say that when I fired a 3 shot group slightly over an inch at 300 yards. One was in the "X" and two were beside it.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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I don't switch out, but have gone to higher mag scopes as I've aged and gotten richer. One can shoot quite accurately, if his target meshes well with his sighting system. I've gone to 10X scopes on my 22 LR's. At 100 yds it's the difference between hitting Beldings ground squirrels in the head, or simply trying hit the squirrel with a 4X scope. With a couple of 24X scopes, I center on a 1/4 inch wide bullseye at 100 yds. With that equipment, I'm cognizant of my heartbeat, motiong that I would never catch with a 6 x scope.
With front and back apertures on my 45-90, I can do MOA groups at 100 yds. The target that fits those sights at 100 has about a 7 inch diameter black circle on a white background with a 2 inch diameter white circle in the center. It's the large black circle that I am centering in those sights. That same target would not work at all for me at 3 or 400 yds.
1Minute
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Campfire Kahuna
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I like to hold belly-button on them..................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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I like to hold belly-button on them.................. Makes for better acrobatics
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Campfire Kahuna
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"Hit that [bleep] in the belly button!",is one of my most oft used phrases...................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I like the behind the ear shot
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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I have a pretty reliable old Leupold LPS 3.5-14 set up in Talley QDs for a Rem 700 long (its "home" is a .257 Roy). Since Talleys is pretty much all I run on hunting rigs, I have been known to strap it onto a new rifle in 700 long to develop loads, or on a rifle where things seem screwy and I want to check the scopes/mounts off the list of possibles.
It ain't a 36X, but it's nice for range work, and so I use it. Normally, I swap it out with a 2.5-8x36 when I'm done.
"What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as freedom should not be highly rated." Thomas Paine
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thanks guys for all the comments and comedy.
Clos
NRA Life Member
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Campfire Ranger
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I prefer the head with my 22 LR's. No one makes it back to their burrow. With a good scattering of bodies out in the target zone, the landowner will furnish me with free ammo.
Last edited by 1minute; 02/23/11.
1Minute
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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I'd happily pay extry,for belly-button pokes.................(grin)
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Everyone with a Cough Silencer around their neck and a Butt Buddy in their back pocket.............. What the fork is a butt buddy?
Trump Won!
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What the fork is a butt buddy?
Google Images is your friend!
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Dayum Pete that reply spooked me, Im afraid to look. LOL
Trump Won!
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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who here uses a 24x or even higher magnification scope when testing loads then switch back to their intended scope after a desired load is found? I used to until I compared results with various scopes and found that there wasn't any difference in group sizes. The only advantage of a high X scope is you don't need a spotter to check your group size. I'd love to be able to shoot a sub 1/4 moa group w/ my 350 rem mag, but it's only a 1/2" gun ![[Linked Image]](http://forums.accuratereloading.com/evefiles/photo_albums/4/8/1/481101382/382101655_49542BBF7666F93D008372E4744A5A53.JPG) and that group shot w/ a 2 1/2x scope. I can see more X for competition or shooting at targets so small you can't see them w/o high x, but as far as more x improving ones load work, my experience has been it's just a way to waste ammo and have to re-zero another scope. But I'm lazy w/ load work and would rather find a good load, load up a pile, and shoot the heck out of em vs. playing musical scopes.
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If you maintain that you can target shoot as well with a 2.5x as a 12x, you are sadly mistaken or a very poor shot. And a 3 shot wallet group doesn't change that.
I've never found changing to another scope and sighting in a rifle to be that difficult a chore. Maybe you need to study up on that too.
Aim for the exit hole.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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X's get superfluous,very fast. Reticles and aiming point,matter muchly.
I've never had to swap glass,to wring a rifle out.................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Campfire Ranger
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I concur with Lott's thoughts on this. Xs can be handy if you're too lazy to get or make a proper target that you can see, but a good target, at least with a hunting rifle, works equally well in my experience when paired with a decent hunting scope.
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
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Everybody's different, for me the extra magnification makes it easier to shoot tighter groups and see what the rifle will do. I have a 4-20X scope I sometimes swap on a rifle to wring it out. If it's a 1 in. rifle at best then the 20x scope isn't going to do a lot of good, but if it's a sub 1/2" rifle then I can tell the difference. It's sitting on a 6.5 WSM with a Kreiger barrel right now, the extra magnification helps on that rifle. I'm well aware that I don't need a sub 1/2" rifle to kill deer, but need has nothing to do with it, it's what I want and I enjoy playing with them. If you can shoot as well with a really accurate rifle wearing a 6x scope then good on you. The extra magnification helps me and it's not much trouble to swap scopes.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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X's get superfluous,very fast. Reticles and aiming point,matter muchly.
I've never had to swap glass,to wring a rifle out................. Ditto.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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I think someones already posted this but it's worth repeating: Since x's are superfluous is why all of the bench rest shooters use 2.5 Tascos. Does anyone remember we're developing a load here, not seeing how well the rifle can shoot?
Aim for the exit hole.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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I think someones already posted this but it's worth repeating: Since x's are superfluous is why all of the bench rest shooters use 2.5 Tascos. Does anyone remember we're developing a load here, not seeing how well the rifle can shoot? "Thinking" very obviously ain't your longsuit and to frost same,you don't shoot much. Feel free to quantify X's in lineal extrapolation from say Hunter Benchrest and their 6x ceiling,to say Light Varmint,without such roadblocks. If only for starters. Laffin'!.................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Stillbeeman: No denying the larger scope brings out the best in the rifle,which is a benchrest rifle built to the highest accuracy standards.... But if i have a hunting rifle,and hunting power scope delivering sub MOA groups, or (say) three shots touching at 100 yards;or doing the equivilent at 300-400 yards,holding MOA,frequently less,there is not much need to prove much more about the rifle. This is not hard to do with a 4-6X scope if one suits the aim point to the reticle size so that one holds tight and small....say a 1" orange dot at 100 yards with a 4X(this is about what center of reticle subtends).We increase this to a 3" dot at 300 yards,in order to hold tightly, etc etc,and this is what I shoot when flopped field prone at 300 yards,and frequently hold groups of about MOA. Among the smallest groups that I have ever fired were 3 shots in basically one hole;this with 150 gr Fusions from a pre 64 M70 FW 30/06, with a 3X leupold. With a varmint rifle,different criteria of course given the size of the intended quarry
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Bob, What I'm talking about is that we are comparing the accuracy of different loads. One against another. And the easy way to determine which load is gonna give you that sub MOA is by mounting a higher powered scope on the rifle. Admitted that in the field, a 1" rifle and a 1.5" rifle are gonna make little difference but when you're practicing, those one inchers sure look better. And once again, BS, having nothing of value to add, reaches into his bottomless sack of rude, nasty, garbled one-liners and makes a post. Proving once again that he is a shallow, trite, mean-minded little person. Does your job as assistant night manager at the 7/11 and having to take orders from your boss,Mohammed build up that much anger in you? Have you thought about changing careers? Maybe bus boy at a Denny's? FYI, they shot matches to several hundred yards using receiver sights. What is your gargled, semi-literate point?
Aim for the exit hole.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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I simply reached into the Fact Sack.
The point was/is that Agg's do not shrink in lineal correlatin to X's going up...nor even close. But reticle configuration and aiming point matter muchly.
To cheer you up,I could crush you with my wallet...................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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You are truly pitiful. I would suggest that you run, don't walk, run to the nearest mental aid station and throw yourself on their mercy.
No one suggested that inproving your aiming point, like improving any of your eq, was linear; but rather a casse of diminishing returns. To make it really, really simple for you, and to make it easy for whomever is reading this for you, if you buy a scope for $800, it is not gonna be twice as good as a $400 scope. But it will be better. You have to decide if the gain in performance is worth the extra cash.
You could probably crush me with your big, fat tongue. ROFLMAO!
Aim for the exit hole.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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You are the mercy of your "experience" and "intellect",neither of which is a purty picture.
Weaver T-Series glass abounds in a multitude of magnifications and will resolve all that there is to know about a rifle/load and for under 400 clams. Fire your Imagination up,as only you can and feel free to find me "mistaken" anywhere and I'll happily rub your nose in your own stupidity...again.
You poor little do-nothin' windowlickin' DREAMERS,crack me the [bleep] up..............
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Campfire Ranger
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Is that vertically or horizontally?
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Have your care-giver read you my posts and you'll find that the scope I use for load developement is a T12.
If you feel that your childish name calling and general non-sensical babbling is "rubbing one's nose in his stupidity" then you're doing a hell of a job. But if you're depending on posts with some substance and knowledge and passable english, to prove your point, you're still on the turnip truck, Skippy.
That suggestion about you seeking help at a mental health clinic is still on the table.
Tell me something, since you have such a problem composing a intellegent sentence, is English your first language?
Aim for the exit hole.
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Campfire Outfitter
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You are the mercy of your "experience" and "intellect",neither of which is a purty picture.
Weaver T-Series glass abounds in a multitude of magnifications and will resolve all that there is to know about a rifle/load and for under 400 clams. Fire your Imagination up,as only you can and feel free to find me "mistaken" anywhere and I'll happily rub your nose in your own stupidity...again.
You poor little do-nothin' windowlickin' DREAMERS,crack me the [bleep] up..............
Hey SlickySticky, You sure must drink alot, you get into an awful lot of pizzing matches. You must buy by the keg, and keep YKK zipper company in business. Swifty
Last edited by Swifty52; 02/26/11.
Swifty
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Campfire Kahuna
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Have your care-giver read you my posts and you'll find that the scope I use for load developement is a T12.
If you feel that your childish name calling and general non-sensical babbling is "rubbing one's nose in his stupidity" then you're doing a hell of a job. But if you're depending on posts with some substance and knowledge and passable english, to prove your point, you're still on the turnip truck, Skippy.
That suggestion about you seeking help at a mental health clinic is still on the table.
Tell me something, since you have such a problem composing a intellegent sentence, is English your first language? You can't even keep pace with your own [bleep] stupidity and I dig how you change tunes,in order to showcase ALL of that stupidity. Fairly impressive! You mentioned 12x,never cited a T-Series until now and interestingly enough,that "Trump Card" does not meld with your prior assertion which stated: "To make it really, really simple for you, and to make it easy for whomever is reading this for you, if you buy a scope for $800, it is not gonna be twice as good as a $400 scope. But it will be better. You have to decide if the gain in performance is worth the extra cash.". You do-nothin'/don't shoot dumbphucks crack me up.....................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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You are the mercy of your "experience" and "intellect",neither of which is a purty picture.
Weaver T-Series glass abounds in a multitude of magnifications and will resolve all that there is to know about a rifle/load and for under 400 clams. Fire your Imagination up,as only you can and feel free to find me "mistaken" anywhere and I'll happily rub your nose in your own stupidity...again.
You poor little do-nothin' windowlickin' DREAMERS,crack me the [bleep] up..............
Hey SlickySticky, You sure must drink alot, you get into an awful lot of pizzing matches. You must buy by the keg, and keep YKK zipper company in business. Swifty Tap water is an unfair advantage.................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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People, we are indeed lucky to have made the acquaintence of one such as himself. No one or nothing is perfect, but Dippy Stick comes the closest to being perfect as anyone I have ever seen.
A perfect, in-bred idiot, that is.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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If you find me "mistaken",feel free to copy/paste that and I'll use smaller words and rub your nose in your own stupidity. Like this treat,which quantifies your "vast experience" and the ease in which you talk out your ass. LINKYou go girl!..............
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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That I use a 12X to load develope is germaine; if I did or didn't specify that it was a T model, isn't. But it was a cute little dodge. I might even say it was above average for you.
Well, you're starting to repeat your trashy, trite little abuses so let's wind this up. Just remember, sadly, no matter how you try to avoid the fact, you are one simple, shallow POS that is just desperate for attention of any sort. You really do need help.
Aim for the exit hole.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Sweetie...try "germane".
Good call to refrain all things the rifle,even though you were doing soooooooooo "good",illustrating the Dumbphuck How-To Handbook..
Laffin'!................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Campfire Outfitter
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Watch out Beeman. He will blow you a kiss next,Then Aim for the exit hole.!!!!!!!!!!!  Swifty
Last edited by Swifty52; 02/26/11.
Swifty
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Campfire Kahuna
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She's "special" and needs coddled along.
Just don't tease her about her crossed-eyes...................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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If you find me "mistaken",feel free to copy/paste that and I'll use smaller words and rub your nose in your own stupidity. Like this treat,which quantifies your "vast experience" and the ease in which you talk out your ass. LINKYou go girl!.............. As much as I hate to admit it, you do have enough sense to understand what I was talking about. You just had your head so far up MontanaRoadKill's and DJPaintless' azzhole that you couldn't see daylight. If you will pull your head out and quit trying to suck these two, you might understand what I said about heat treat and steel. You said point out what you said was wrong. Everything you said about steel and sharpening and knives in general was wrong. It was so far wrong that you wern't even in the ball park. You, I will give credit for having a little sense, but many crazies are very smart, so don't go getting the Big Head to go along with your Big Stick. But when you get togather with the two mentioned above, and I will add .458 Lott and one more, who I don't remember, the total IQ drops to less than room temperature. I will not try to explain it again. I explained it on the link. Four of you did not understand it, because they are too stupid. All you have to do is pull your head out and re-read it, and, whether you will admit it or not, and probably not, you will find out that I was correct in what I said. However, I don't have to prove anything to you. I have already proved it to anyone who wants to know. For awhile, I thought you were stupid, but you're not. You are just mean as a snake and jealous and envious of anyone who is smarter than you and knows more than you, and get some sort of sick kick from cutting others down. I know scientist who would like to study you.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Your sheer and utter cluelessness,needs no explanation. It is a factor of your lack of intellect and experience,factored by VIVID Imagination.
You went to great lengths to quantify same and I am much humored,that you think your prior Showcase of unbridled stupidity,needs a curtain call.
You go girl!................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Well, guess I was wrong about your having a little sense. I knew it was a toss up between fairly smart and really inbred stupid.
You answered the question for me. The proof in the breeding will always come out. Poor, simple little chit for brains.
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"You go girl!................"
That is an expression I have heard frequently used by black women. That explains a lot. Someone asked what race you were. I think you answered that question, too.
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Isn't it absolutely cunning how BS, aka POS, considers referring to someone in the female gender as the ultimate put-down. I think it really reveals his true, inner self. I think that he's the one that's "special".
Aim for the exit hole.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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You two is better at Vagina Monologues,than you are rifles,glass or blades.
You go girls!.................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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There are no women who shave their pits where he hangs his small jock, so one can understand his fear of them. They've been kickin his sorry fat little butt since second grade, so cut him some slack.
I'm told he was an extra in Brokeback Mountain but was cut from the final version as all you could see was to top of his hat (a beanie with a propeller) as he bent over the wagon tongue.
That 24 X scope idea won't work unless to get a rattle can of metallic pink paint and paint it up. Option 2 is to dip it in camo gel coat. Now I can't take credit for either of these ideas ...... they both were pioneered by the "sage of Milne".
And, as we all know, he is ALWAYS right !
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Campfire Kahuna
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Didn't mean to horn you up,yet again.
You gals and your Imaginations,is quite a riot!
Carry on with your doin' nothin'.................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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He is running out of ideas.
"horn up"
"gals"
"[bleep]"
"drooling"
.........
about the limit of his communication skills.
"Still taking pledges for the Stick come to the real world fund"
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Campfire Kahuna
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I needn't ideas,as facts is more than adequate and I'll happily leave Imagination to you Do-nothin' gals and your Dreams.
Do tell,which scope works "best" with your lazy eye?
Laffin'!................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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"He is running out of ideas.
"horn up"
"gals"
"[bleep]"
"drooling""
"Laffin'!................"
It don't take much to tickle his gizzard. He told me to copy and paste anything he said that was incorrect. Well, that would be all 33,907 of his posts, and every one would consist mostly of the few words above.
It would really help if he would learn to read and write, and where to use commas. He definately has problems that more than likely can't be treated.
After all, the 400 or 500 people he has tried to cut down can't all be wrong.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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I'm as equally comfy in my blade assertions,as them pertaining the rifle/glass. Am much looking forward for you to take any/all opportunities to talk out your ass and wax eloquent upon your profound stupidity and the "vast experience" and "knowledge" it has "enabled" you. ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/BigStick/FABW7364.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/BigStick/Stuff/Rifle%20Stuff/StandardFare.jpg) Laffin'!..............
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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In fairness,noone can cut you down...nearly as well as you can.
You go girl!.................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Claiming to own a bunch of knives and rifles does not give you class, even if you do own them, and as big of a liar as you are, I would't believe you know which end of the barrel the bullet comes out of, or that you would even know which end of a knife to hold in your hand.
It would not surprise me, based of your previous posts, that you would hold the knife by the blade and try to cut with the handle. That is probably the reason you and DG and the Montana roadkill hunter have the problems you do with sharpening knives.
You don't know which end to hold and which end to sharpen.
Trust me, you have no room to call anyone dumb or stupid. You give new meaning to both words.
As stated, owning or more accurately, claiming to own, a bunch of knives and guns does not give you class. You are still a POS regardless of what you own.
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Campfire Kahuna
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You are a clueless dumbphuck,who tries to talk about wares she doesn't own,has never seen,nor has ever used. You exemplify stupidity and then some.
Only someone that utterly clueless,would ramble on in regards to "particulars" of her Imaginary goods in her Imaginary pursuits.
You go girl!..............
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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You are a clueless dumbphuck,who tries to talk about wares she doesn't own,has never seen,nor has ever used. You exemplify stupidity and then some.
This is the same tired old bullshite that he always posts except he changes "wares" to "boolits" (whatever that is) or "handles" (whatever that is) or rifles or anything else he happens to be blattering about. I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't just cut and paste the same old crap and upgrade the subject. Perhaps he even has a file of "really stupid things I can say" that he can feference. Naaaw, since he only has three or four tired, trite one-liners, he can perhaps remember them all. Almost as large a feat as him correctly pressing the right coloured button so his care-giver will know whether he wants grapes, bannanas, or soda.
Aim for the exit hole.
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Campfire Kahuna
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I'll again feign my "surprise",that you refrain all things the rifle and glass...in exchange for an eloquent whine.
You assuredly ain't gonna bitch yourself your first [bleep] clue,so you'd do well to take notes and apply same.
Just sayin'...................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Have you noted what a "non-event" you have become on this site ?
Appears that most have figured you out and you're just not getting the attention on which you thrive.
Note you've dropped the quote about being let back on.
Perhaps you have finally figured out that exposure to sunlight it the best cure for a fungus.
So Nobody becomes nobody ......... he he he he.
Dollar to a dime this thread is dead.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Your Imagination is taking you places again.
Bless your heart and that lazy eye.................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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"Dollar to a dime this thread is dead."
It is for me. I just received a PM from someone with a comment about degrading this site. Sad to say, the sender is correct, but the site was degraded by you know who before I came along.
I have no doubt the degrading will continue, but I am not going to be a part of it any more. No matter how hard you try, you are never going to be able to out bray a jackass, and that is what we are all up against.
The above is not a promise. I have been known to change my mind.
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Campfire Kahuna
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You've been known to make schit up,using your Imagination and talk squarely out your ass to boot.
Congratulations?.................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Campfire Kahuna
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Oh and great call yet again,to refrain ALL things the rifle/glass and blades.
Laffin'!................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Just another voice with nothing to say that can't seem to realize that no one is listening ...........
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Campfire Kahuna
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Just facts,falling on crossed-eyes and drooling pie holes and their Imaginations.
Which is why all you Window Lickers refrain rifles/glass and blades.
Too [bleep] funny!...............
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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I fail to see how increased magnification can control reticle movement or improve one's hold thereby improving group size.
Whatever is going on with a 6X is certainly going on with a 24X. Holding hard gives the same results with either.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Been known to be a fact..............(grin)
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Been known to be a fact..............(grin) Once again, Mr Pitiful makes a post that certainly reveals his ignorance. Why do the Bench shooters use the high powered glass? Why do the Silhouette shooters use such high powered glass for the distance shot?? Of course you have to know how to use the upgraded equipment otherwise it's just a matter of ego or trying to buy your way into the winner's circle. Kinda like putting a rediculously overprice Mcswirly stock on a $200 gun and calling it a custom rifle. Maybe adding a skull and cross bones to show your adultness.
Aim for the exit hole.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Sugartits,you can't shoot to 6x realities,nor close.
Do enjoy your whine though.
Laffin'!.................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Once again, Mr Pitiful makes a post that certainly reveals his ignorance. Why do the Bench shooters use the high powered glass? Why do the Silhouette shooters use such high powered glass for the distance shot?? Of course you have to know how to use the upgraded equipment otherwise it's just a matter of ego or trying to buy your way into the winner's circle. How is it some pretty impressive groups are shot with open sights in high-power comps and at Perry?
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Been known to be a fact..............(grin) Once again, Mr Pitiful makes a post that certainly reveals his ignorance. Why do the Bench shooters use the high powered glass? Why do the Silhouette shooters use such high powered glass for the distance shot?? Of course you have to know how to use the upgraded equipment otherwise it's just a matter of ego or trying to buy your way into the winner's circle. Kinda like putting a rediculously overprice Mcswirly stock on a $200 gun and calling it a custom rifle. Maybe adding a skull and cross bones to show your adultness. Sure would like to see some of your Imaginary rifles,that are giving you real troubles. Laffin'!.................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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I fail to see how increased magnification can control reticle movement or improve one's hold thereby improving group size.
Whatever is going on with a 6X is certainly going on with a 24X. Holding hard gives the same results with either.
Does this apply to 1x as well? If one can can shoot a 0.5" group at 100 with 24X they can shoot that with 6X or 1X with equal ease?
The collection of taxes which are not absolutely required, which do not beyond reasonable doubt contribute to public welfare, is only a species of legalized larceny. Under this Republic the rewards of industry belong to those who earn them. Coolidge
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Is there a lineal extrapolation to X's and Agg sizing?
Nope.
Do Window Lickers IMAGINE lotsa schit?
Yep....................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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I fail to see how increased magnification can control reticle movement or improve one's hold thereby improving group size.
Whatever is going on with a 6X is certainly going on with a 24X. Holding hard gives the same results with either.
Does this apply to 1x as well? If one can can shoot a 0.5" group at 100 with 24X they can shoot that with 6X or 1X with equal ease? Simply put, yes. Magnification of a day scope has nothing to do with the fundamentals of steady hold, proper breathing, alignment or follow through. That's what gives results. It's individual as to what one's eye prefers as an aiming point. Irons, crosshairs, post and wire, dot, circle, triangle... Heck, I'd go so far as to say the 24X most likely would be a detractor to good groups at 100y, even when one really knows how to hold hard. Seen more than one shooter with high magnification on a rifle who could not relax to provide a clean, consistant break of the trigger whenever the reticle was moving. Higher magnification will amplify movement exponentially. I can for sure state high magnification is a handicap when the conditions are poor. Especially at distances past the usual 100y or 100m load testing distance.
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I fail to see how increased magnification can control reticle movement or improve one's hold thereby improving group size.
Whatever is going on with a 6X is certainly going on with a 24X. Holding hard gives the same results with either.
Does this apply to 1x as well? If one can can shoot a 0.5" group at 100 with 24X they can shoot that with 6X or 1X with equal ease? Simply put, yes. Magnification of a day scope has nothing to do with the fundamentals of steady hold, proper breathing, alignment or follow through. That's what gives results. It's individual as to what one's eye prefers as an aiming point. Irons, crosshairs, post and wire, dot, circle, triangle... Heck, I'd go so far as to say the 24X most likely would be a detractor to good groups at 100y, even when one really knows how to hold hard. Seen more than one shooter with high magnification on a rifle who could not relax to provide a clean, consistant break of the trigger whenever the reticle was moving. Higher magnification will amplify movement exponentially. I can for sure state high magnification is a handicap when the conditions are poor. Especially at distances past the usual 100y or 100m load testing distance. I am confused, I can't see 0.5 at a 100 without magnification, How am I going to be able to shoot it?
The collection of taxes which are not absolutely required, which do not beyond reasonable doubt contribute to public welfare, is only a species of legalized larceny. Under this Republic the rewards of industry belong to those who earn them. Coolidge
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Campfire Kahuna
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Iron sight aperture ,matching the targets subtended value.
You'll note prior,that correlation to aiming point size reference to a given system,was plainly mentioned.
Do you idiots really shoot this little?................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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I am confused, I can't see 0.5 at a 100 without magnification, How am I going to be able to shoot it? We have that in common. I can not see nearly as well as I could years ago. Holding a rifle the same way every shot, with the same sight picture, with the same breath control, with the same trigger break, and with the same follow through will produce a consistant result. Cutting a hole the size of an asprin in a target at 100y does not require "seeing" that aspirin at 100y. Yep, a good stick with a shooter who can be consistant can hit that asprin sized hole again. Many open iron sight shooters have proven that to be possible.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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For the Do-nothin' Ladies and their Imaginations............. ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/BigStick/Stuff/Rifle%20Stuff/20110227-DAD_1990.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/BigStick/Stuff/Rifle%20Stuff/20110227-DAD_1997.jpg)
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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I find its not that way for me. Iron sight wise I struggle to shoot 2 MOA these days (though there was time when I could shoot a pretty regular 1 moa with irons), I can get in the range of .75 MoA with a 4X and with 14X I can shoot to at least .5moa.
I have tried to match targets to the reticles but obviously haven't been able to do it well enough.
In a practical sense its easier to control movement/Natural POA/ even heart beat when you can see its effects, at least for me.
The collection of taxes which are not absolutely required, which do not beyond reasonable doubt contribute to public welfare, is only a species of legalized larceny. Under this Republic the rewards of industry belong to those who earn them. Coolidge
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I understand what you are saying. But, where does the distinction fall between a temporary improvement of one's technique and correcting shooting errors over actual load development?
One has to be constant. If 14X gives you that consistency, one must use it throughout the entire load development process.
Most do not see such a difference in results using higher magnification. .25 is well above average I have observed, and seen in valid testing.
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Several years ago, in tests performed by the Army Marksmanship Training Unit at Ft. Benning GA, it was determined that a person could make an aiming error with up to an 8 power scope and not be able to tell it.
This people doing the testing were Olympiac Gold Medal shooters and other championship shooters.
After reading that, I always made it a point to try to use at least an 8 power scope or above, if one was available.
You can get close with lower power, and also iron sights, but sometimes, close is not good enough, unless you are throwing hand granades.
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Several years ago, in tests performed by the Army Marksmanship Training Unit at Ft. Benning GA, it was determined that a person could make an aiming error with up to an 8 power scope and not be able to tell it.
This people doing the testing were Olympiac Gold Medal shooters and other championship shooters.
After reading that, I always made it a point to try to use at least an 8 power scope or above, if one was available.
You can get close with lower power, and also iron sights, but sometimes, close is not good enough, unless you are throwing hand granades. Do you realize how stupid what you just posted really is?
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When testing loads, I use high magnification.
For hunting, I match the scope to what is needed/wanted.
Can't cheat the mountain, Pilgrim...
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"Do you realize how stupid what you just posted really is?"
Yeah, and all bench rest matches even out to 1000 thousand yards are won using two and three power scopes.
You poor, dumb POS.
Why oh why am I surrounded by idiots?
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Different Strokes for different folks...
Sadly, many don't realize this and think their way is the only way.
Can't cheat the mountain, Pilgrim...
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"Do you realize how stupid what you just posted really is?"
Yeah, and all bench rest matches even out to 1000 thousand yards are won using two and three power scopes.
You poor, dumb POS.
Why oh why am I surrounded by idiots?
It's clearly obvious you simply don't know how stupid (unknowledgeable) your post was. It ain't the increased magnification that puts shots "close." Learned that firsthand at Ft. Benning myself. Trip or two to Camp Perry proved it.
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When testing loads, I use high magnification.
For hunting, I match the scope to what is needed/wanted. That is the way it should be done. I have always used the highest magnification I had available when testing loads, and usually a 4 power for hunting. Or else set my variable on 4 power. Even high power shooters and others over the course shooters who shoot in Camp Perry type matches test their loads with scopes, even though they use open sights in the matches.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Several years ago, in tests performed by the Army Marksmanship Training Unit at Ft. Benning GA, it was determined that a person could make an aiming error with up to an 8 power scope and not be able to tell it.
This people doing the testing were Olympiac Gold Medal shooters and other championship shooters.
After reading that, I always made it a point to try to use at least an 8 power scope or above, if one was available.
You can get close with lower power, and also iron sights, but sometimes, close is not good enough, unless you are throwing hand granades. "Olympiac" "granades". You make a point to talk out your ass,because you have no [bleep] clue of what you are talking about and are operating solely on Imagination. Please say more!.............
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Ammunition is issued at Camp Perry.
Outside of High Power, no one brings their "own" loads.
Those who shoot High Power know testing with a chronograph and the actual competition optic is critical. Switching optics is an unnecessary step in the process.
Why am I wasting time?
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This is going round and round and become pointless. That anyone can believe they shoot better without a scope rather than with one is really, really confused. And Mr Pitiful is in his glory since someone is paying attention to him. So I'm outa here.
Oh BTW Mr Pitiful, please don't call me "sweetie". I only let people that have actually hummed my joint do that. Not people that want to.
Aim for the exit hole.
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"Ammunition is issued at Camp Perry.
No one brings their "own" loads."
You might have been at Ft. Benning, but you wern't in the AMU. If you were, you wouldn't have said something like that. Maybe the brig?
You've never been to Camp Perry, either. Who issues the loads to David Tubb and Deena Wigger, and the ones who use Wildcat cartridges. The Army does not even make a cartridge in the caliber David Tubb uses.
You've been sucking up to Stick too much. You seem to have the same disease he has. Something called Dumbus of the Azzous.
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Campfire Kahuna
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You are wellfounded to come outta the closet,rather than muse rifle/glass particulars,as at least you'll have some firsthand accountings to reflect upon.
Always enjoy your taking the time,to pretend you've a clue.
You were never in here...though that you thought you were,do add copiously to the humor!...................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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"Why am I wasting time?"
You're wasting time because you don't know what you are talking about. Optics are not used in High Power matches at Camp Perry, so there is no optics to switch.
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"Why am I wasting time?"
You're wasting time because you don't know what you are talking about. Optics are not used in High Power matches at Camp Perry, so there is no optics to switch.
Any/Any is found throughout the classes. "Optics" is a term used freely to cover irons, peeps, clarifiers, filters, lenses, and even day scopes with magnification. Don't bother thanking me for my service to our nation. It was my honor and privilege.
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"Don't bother thanking me for my service to our nation. It was my honor and privilege."
You are not the only one who has ever worn a military uniform, although you might think you are. I can't see that you are any better than the other millions of us who also served our country.
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And I appreciate your service as well.
I simply don't understand your namecalling. Or the strange way you attempt to discuss what you have "read."
But hey. It is the Internet.
Have fun.
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This thread is dead alright. last 20 post have been BS!
Clos
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I've been able to shoot some fairly tight groups with low magnification scope. The key is to have an aiming point that is big enough to index the reticle on in a consistent manner. A 2" box or diamond is plenty big enough to consistently index a 4X scope on at 100 yards. I was using the little 1.5-5x20 on a 308 for a while, and it was no hinderance in determining the potential of a load. Used the little scope on both of these tests. ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/montanamarine/308%20Targets/CopyofIMG_7404.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/montanamarine/308%20Targets/Img_7184.jpg)
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I have never, ever heard of iron sights or receiver sights referred to as "optics". Is this something new? Like calling bullets "boolits" or a stock a "handle".
BTW, Top, where are the other two shots in your "groups"?
Aim for the exit hole.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Iron sight aperture ,matching the targets subtended value.
You'll note prior,that correlation to aiming point size reference to a given system,was plainly mentioned.
Do you idiots really shoot this little?................
Gotta agree with Stick on this.....I'm not a competitive shooter(been asked to partake,though,quite a few times)...but anyone who has picked up a Palma Match rifle, aligned the apertures to the 600 yard target,and gotten 4 shots into 2 inches, knows this); ....or kept a hunting rifle with a 4X or 6X scope, sub MOA from 300-600 yards knows it, too.....also see Shane's post above.... With standard BG rifles,you are not gonna squeeze groups to smaller dimensions by hanging a Hubble on it.... Besides, the whole exercise is boring to the max anyway....I've tossed out so many tiny groups over the years,fired with 3X to 6X scopes that once I know a rifle will do it, I don't bother anymore.It is one of the most overrated of shooting activities as pertains to BG hunting..... And seeing tiny 100 yard groups posted on here leaves me less than impressed, too,because rifles that will do it are pretty common today.I'm more impressed with groups shot by guys with hunting rifles, from hunting positions....seeing what rifle and shooter can do with the rifle "in their hands"...not locked into a bunch of bags. Anybody can shoot good groups like that....
Last edited by BobinNH; 02/28/11.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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A couple knowledgeable people have made the point that using the right size target to match the reticle is the key. Try it, and I think you will find they know what they are talking about. It is the same reason that the bull becomes larger in competition as the yardage increases.
I can't use a one inch square with a 3min dot at 100 and expect to do my best, but with a 3in or close circle or square the groups start to shrink and become more consistent.
With a duplex reticle and standard inch square targets, I see no improvement at 100yards with anything over 8x.
24x doesn't make a one inch rifle and shooter magically turn into anything smaller or more consistent.
laissez les bons temps rouler
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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battue; Exactly....you've maxed out the capability of the system....more X's will not help.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Matching the target to the reticle is important. This target works quite well when the thin part of the reticle appears thinner than the + part of the target: http://targetz.com/targetzlib/10058.pdfIt's better than a plain round dot because it helps eliminate even small cant errors. This cuts down horizontal dispersion in the groups, particularly if your POI is several inches above POA. Using it at 100 yards it's no problem to shoot sub-half inch groups with a 6x scope and regular duplex reticle.
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Campfire Tracker
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I would like to try to clarify what I was trying to say. Hunting and competition, or informal target shooting are entirely different things, and require different equipment.
When I want to test a particular load, or test a new bedding job, or even a new rifle, I use the most powerful scope I have available, and also the steadiest position, usually a tightly rolled up sleeping bag on a bench. I have never felt comfortable using sand bags, especially with a hard recoiling rifle.
When I do this, I am testing the loads and the rifle, not my shooting skills. If the loads or rifle will not group using a high magnification scope and a steady rest, then there is no point in trying to test the equipment from the standing position.
Then, when I know the capability of my loads and/or rifle, I use the scope best suited to the hunting conditions, and shoot from field positions. I suspect very little game is shot from a bench rest.
As far as a high magnification scope for load and rifle testing--the higher the magnification, the better you can see your aiming point, and the better you can aim consistantly, and for load testing, seeing your aiming point the same for each shot is what is important.
That is why bench resters use high magnification. Bench rest groups are measured in thousandths of an inch. A miscalculation in aiming of only a few thousands can be the difference in winning or losing. With a 24 or 36X scope, you can tell if you are off your aiming point by a few thousandths. You cannot do this with open sights and long yardage.
For load and rifle testing, this type of precision is not necessary, but if you are expecting 1.5 MOA from your equipment, then you need to be able to determine if you are consistantly within 1.5 inches of your aiming point, and higher magnification helps you to do this. You want to eliminate as much human error as possible.
Then, when you get to the target range or the game fields, you know what you can expect from your equipment, so then you work on eliminating the human error.
There is no point in entering a competition with equipment that is not capable of shooting a perfect score. Therefore, you test the equipment using the best means available, then work on your ability to shoot a perfect score.
There is also no point in shooting at a game animal at any distance, even 50 to 500 yards if the rifle is not capable of being accurate enough to hit the animal at the range you are shooting it.
So yes, I think there is a place for high magnification and a steady position when testing the capabilities of your equipment.
Even if you are going to hunt with open sights, there is nothing wrong with using a high magnification scope to test the loads and rifle at the ranges you expect to see an animal. If the rifle and loads are not capable of hitting what you are aiming at, regardless of sighting equipment, then you need better equipment.
Put another way, if your rifle is not capable of hitting a deer sized animal at 50 yards, even with a 10X scope, then using less power or even open sights is not going to improve your rifle's capability.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with using high mag scopes for testing, I do it all the time. But I am of the opinion that it's nowhere near as necessary as some folks believe.
When testing at 100 yards to find good hunting handloads, a shooter is pretty well equipped with a quality scope topping out at 9x or so. I guarantee that if you, your rifle and load are capable of a half inch group at 100, then a 6x scope and the target I linked above will let you do it.
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"Are you standing with 1234567 in stating there are no optics used in High Power at Camp Perry?"
Unless the rules have changed recently, the High Power matches at Camp Perry and other places, where the same rules apply, iron or open sights are used on both service rifles and NRA match rifles.
Scopes are allowed in some smallbore matches, and also in BullsEye pistol matches. Some of them, but not all.
The 1000 yard Leech cup is iron sights, only. No magnification allowed. The 1000 yard Wimbelton is any rifle, any sights. In this match, you can use either a scope or open sights, except if you shoot in Service Rifle class. Then, you are restricted to open sights. Most shooters, most likely all, using match rifles in this competition, use a scope.
The Palma matches are limited to open sights, also called peep or aperture sights. No magnification.
I have shot in 600 yard any rifle, any sight matches, but not at Camp Perry, and I have also shot in 600 yard Service Rifle matches, where the only sights you could use were the aperature sights as issued on the M1 and M14. They did not have glass in them, either front or rear.
Perhaps you are confused by what is optical sights and what are open sights. Optical sights are like the Aimpoint and telescopes. The iron sights are also known as peep sights, or aperture sights. There are no magnification lens allowed in this type sight, although I have heard of special inserts being allowed to aid shooters with failing eye sight, but these by no means take the shape or form of a telescopic sight.
As far as the name calling, read back over the threads and see for yourself who started with the first name calling.
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[quote=mathman]I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with using high mag scopes for testing, I do it all the time. But I am of the opinion that it's nowhere near as necessary as some folks believe.
I don't think there is anything wrong with it, either. The purpose when testing is to reduce human error.
The first scope I ever owned was a 4X, and I shot some fairly smally groups with that rifle/scope combo, but I would have never entered a bench rest match with it.
When testing loads at 100 yards, I like to have a small, but definate aiming point. I move the point of impact an inch or two away from the aiming point, so that I can see the bullet holes in the white paper with a 9 or 10X scope.
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The NRA classifies "sights" or optic sighting systems in section 3.7 as being one of the following; metallic (corrective or non corrective), telescopic or any.
I understand each of them completely, and understand exactly where they are allowed and not allowed in classification and in the individual match competitions.
There are a LOT more classifications than Service Rifle. I know them well, having actually shot there.
Simply put, higher magnification does not make up for fundamental shooter error. Some wish to think so, but it simply is not true. Magnification is often a crutch for eye focusing, and if the resolution and clarity is not there the result might be poorer results.
One can use what they are comfortable with. But for many years fantastic groups and results on game and enemy combatants were obtained using little to no magnification. Still happening today.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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I would like to try to clarify what I was trying to say. Hunting and competition, or informal target shooting are entirely different things, and require different equipment.
When I want to test a particular load, or test a new bedding job, or even a new rifle, I use the most powerful scope I have available, and also the steadiest position, usually a tightly rolled up sleeping bag on a bench. I have never felt comfortable using sand bags, especially with a hard recoiling rifle.
When I do this, I am testing the loads and the rifle, not my shooting skills. If the loads or rifle will not group using a high magnification scope and a steady rest, then there is no point in trying to test the equipment from the standing position.
Then, when I know the capability of my loads and/or rifle, I use the scope best suited to the hunting conditions, and shoot from field positions. I suspect very little game is shot from a bench rest.
As far as a high magnification scope for load and rifle testing--the higher the magnification, the better you can see your aiming point, and the better you can aim consistantly, and for load testing, seeing your aiming point the same for each shot is what is important.
That is why bench resters use high magnification. Bench rest groups are measured in thousandths of an inch. A miscalculation in aiming of only a few thousands can be the difference in winning or losing. With a 24 or 36X scope, you can tell if you are off your aiming point by a few thousandths. You cannot do this with open sights and long yardage.
For load and rifle testing, this type of precision is not necessary, but if you are expecting 1.5 MOA from your equipment, then you need to be able to determine if you are consistantly within 1.5 inches of your aiming point, and higher magnification helps you to do this. You want to eliminate as much human error as possible.
Then, when you get to the target range or the game fields, you know what you can expect from your equipment, so then you work on eliminating the human error.
There is no point in entering a competition with equipment that is not capable of shooting a perfect score. Therefore, you test the equipment using the best means available, then work on your ability to shoot a perfect score.
There is also no point in shooting at a game animal at any distance, even 50 to 500 yards if the rifle is not capable of being accurate enough to hit the animal at the range you are shooting it.
So yes, I think there is a place for high magnification and a steady position when testing the capabilities of your equipment.
Even if you are going to hunt with open sights, there is nothing wrong with using a high magnification scope to test the loads and rifle at the ranges you expect to see an animal. If the rifle and loads are not capable of hitting what you are aiming at, regardless of sighting equipment, then you need better equipment.
Put another way, if your rifle is not capable of hitting a deer sized animal at 50 yards, even with a 10X scope, then using less power or even open sights is not going to improve your rifle's capability. Dumbphuck, Your IMAGINATION is taking you places again. Though points for your "high magnification/sleeping bag" quantifications. Points also awarded for: "When I do this, I am testing the loads and the rifle, not my shooting skills",which is both a dichotomy and an oxymoron,kudos! Do tell some about your Imaginary rifles,their Imaginary scopes and their Imaginary loads...frosted copiously of course wih your Imaginary "results". Laffin'!.................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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..... Using it at 100 yards it's no problem to shoot sub-half inch groups with a 6x scope and regular duplex reticle. Yes.....I understand the mind set of the higher magnification regimen.This is fine for folks with lots of time,and interested in ultimate preciison;.... assuming you are getting Mathman's 1/2" groups with your hunting scope,you can investigate further if you like. Personally I would rather spend the precious range time working more on "myself",from field positions,ie., field prone, off hand, etc;and watching the rifle over an extended time frame for consistent maintenance of "zero" from these positions, .....none of this is accomplished too well from a bench rest with bags,chasing smaller groups. Plus,personally, I hate swappping out scopes on rifles for nebulous returns.If I'm gonna hunt with a 6X,I'll do my load work with it as well.My experience has been that I am not leaving anything on the table.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Campfire Ranger
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Here you go, even if they are from the bench. I'm thinking 24x is not going to change the fact that these combinations are ready to hunt and any misses will be on me. 8x 100 and 200yd. ![[Linked Image]](http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/toby0223/001-19.jpg) 8x @ 200. ![[Linked Image]](http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/toby0223/002-8.jpg) 8x @100. ![[Linked Image]](http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/toby0223/mypictures001-20.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/toby0223/mypictures002-20.jpg) Switching between 6x and 5x @ 100 and 200. ![[Linked Image]](http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/toby0223/001-13.jpg)
laissez les bons temps rouler
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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10X, 560 yards ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/montanamarine/308%20Targets/Img_9094.jpg)
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Campfire Ranger
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10X, 1120 yards. no trouble bisecting the 5" box I drew in the middle with a fat sharpie. ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/montanamarine/308%20Targets/Img_7466.jpg)
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Still cracks me up. 705yds 6x42. ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/BigStick/Stuff/Rifle%20Stuff/BarrelBreakInB.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/BigStick/Stuff/Rifle%20Stuff/BarrelBreakInA.jpg) RINK100yds MPAJ offa ruck,while laffin'..................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Big Headed Kid,after just having shotta clean at 1K with a belly full,ala 6x42. MPAJ offa ruck. ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/BigStick/Stuff/DADS5426.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/BigStick/Stuff/DADS5428.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/BigStick/Stuff/DADS5432.jpg) He done bought him a like rifle,so chambered...curiously enough................(grin)
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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I wish Leupie would do a Mk4 M1 6x Duplex. The M3 version is close,but no ceegar................ ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/BigStick/Stuff/Rifle%20Stuff/20110217-DAD_1557.jpg)
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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That'd be nice.
BBMF looks like a nice rig. Are you shooting the Hornady 75gr BTHP? 9 twist?
I was considering that bullet for a mag length load in my 16" AR. Decent BC, but I didn't know if it needed 1/8 to fly well.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Never seen a 9" that wouldn't do them proud. Go A-Max and all bets are off in 9".
They dig deep and don't do a bad job in a Utility role....................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Campfire Tracker
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Im throwing this up in general and not at anyone in particular. Regarding the use more magnification for load development I still have not come up with a great reason to do it. For the sake of arguement I will say the best you can shoot at 6x is 1moa and going to a 24x for load development cuts your groups to 1/2moa. If your gonna switch back to a 6x scope for hunting what is the point? It seems your admitting to yourself that 1moa is the best you can do so what good does it do to use more X for testing then throw a 6x back on for hunting? It just seems like an exercise in futility and waste of components to build a 1/2 moa load if you cannot extrapolate that potential into field use with your 6x scope.
Im not shy about magnification either, shooting the tiny fricken squirrels we have in low grass I have no problems turning it up to 12-16x at even a hundred yards to be able to find them.
For me the most telling example was beating up plates from 400 to 700yards this last summer (think max was 785 but dont have my notes in front of me). I was trying to illustrate the point of using a FFP reticle to my buddies and how well it worked as a holdover tool without having to worry about being at an exact magnification. I had new shooters ringing the heck out of those plates from about 6x to the 14x and the hit ratio did not appear to be noticable affected by the magnification, I was simply calling out the mil holds for elevation and wind as they moved from target to target.
Hunt hard, kill clean, waste nothing and offer no apologies.
"In rifle work, group size is of some interest...but it is well to remember that a rifleman does not shoot groups, he shoots shots." Jeff Cooper
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Reality is,it's very easy to hold/shoot sub .25MOA with 6x at 100.
Folks wanna blame X's for all sortsa schit that ain't so...............
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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I've never shot nothing at 1,000 yards and probably never will. But for general hunting I dont think I've ever shot a deer with a scope set higher than 7x. I can generally shoot or sight in just as well with a medium powered scope vs. a higher powered one. 4x at 100 yds. How's the 6x42mm on a light carbine ? Seems it would be a little top heavy ? ![[Linked Image]](http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/wheeler_/DSC03938-1.jpg)
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To NOBODY in particular (he, he). Amid all the pizzing on one another's shoes, I wonder if any of you have ever been to or participated in a Hunter Bench Rest Match ? For the uniformed, they are limited to SIX power scopes and I rather doubt any of the groups proudly posted here would bring home a trophy ..... i.e. they shoot bugholes. As far as hunting goes, I can only defer to Finn, who was reasonably good at it. He once said:"a big game animal too far away to be killed with a 3X scope is too far away." Some might remember that JOC killed a lot of his big game with a hopeless Lyman Alaskan 2.5 X with a FIVE inch dot. While it is obvious that their experience pales compared to the Bard of Milne, it is interesting. Big clunky scopes turn sweet rifles into clubs. IMHO best combination of price, quality, reticle (illuminated on demand), weight slimness and optical quality for a HUNTING rifle is the 2.5-10x32 Nightforce with one of the velocity compensating reticles. No knob twiddling and slips in a saddle scabbard beautifully. Of course, some may consider me contrary, as I think, like the Sr. Askins did, that semi-autos are better HUNTING rifles than things you have to manipulate. Good enough to win WW II is good enough to kill anything a 300 Winmag (the real one) will handle. Unlike some, I'm happy match my money with my opinion ...... ![[Linked Image]](http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z231/leadloader/DSCN3062.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z231/leadloader/DSCN3063.jpg)
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Campfire Ranger
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I've shot 1/2 moa with 2.5x, and I can easily detect a 1/4moa wobble through 2.5x. Heck, I can shoot moa w/ irons. If you can't hold steady low magnification, you won't magincally hold steady with the hubble mounted atop your rifle.
A simple test for the doubters. Once you have an accurate load worked out for your rifle, if you have a 3-9 on top, shoot groups at 3, 6 and 9. If you worked up groups with a 12, a 24 or 36, compare them to those shot w/ 3, 6 and 9. Odds are you won't detect a difference in the size of the groups.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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To NOBODY in particular (he, he). Amid all the pizzing on one another's shoes, I wonder if any of you have ever been to or participated in a Hunter Bench Rest Match ? For the uniformed, they are limited to SIX power scopes and I rather doubt any of the groups proudly posted here would bring home a trophy ..... i.e. they shoot bugholes. Comparing groups shot with a hunter BR class rifle to those from a hunting rifle since they both wear 6x scopes makes about as much sense as comparing lap times for a Formula One race car to those of a street sports car that happens to have the same number of cylinders in its engine.
Last edited by mathman; 02/28/11.
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Campfire Ranger
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And so IT goes, the logic of BossLady/Oldballs.....
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I have shot Hunter BR and I can guarentee that those bug hole loads were not developed with a 6X.
And to all of you that suddenly want to relate the thread to hunting with a big scope or a excessively powerful scope, the original question was "does anyone LOAD DEVELOPE with a high powered scope".
Aim for the exit hole.
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Really I know FIVE people who compete in HBR all over the West and ALL their loads are worked up using the same scopes as the match ....... 6X
Hard to practice with equipment different from that you compete with. (in any sport)
As for the "expert" on scopes and engines ..... LAFFIN
A 6x42 Sightron, Leupold etc HBR scope will work just fine for hunting. As for the rifles .... there are plenty of sniper wannabes hunting with rifles weighing as much or more than an HBR rifle.
You apparently know little of F 1 engines, scopes or the vast variety of rifles folks hunt with !
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,887 Likes: 11
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,887 Likes: 11 |
A 6x42 Sightron, Leupold etc HBR scope will work just fine for hunting. No [bleep] Sherlock. I only use about a half dozen 6x scopes myself. As for the rifles .... there are plenty of sniper wannabes hunting with rifles weighing as much or more than an HBR rifle Once again you fail at making a meaningful comparison. Of course, weight per se doesn't a competitive benchrest rifle make.
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 12,022
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 12,022 |
lin�e�al
Straight out of Merian-Webster
Meaning:: having a direct family relationship : related by a direct series of parents and children ▪ He claims that he is a lineal descendent of a famous military hero. ▪ a lineal ancestor
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 12,022
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 12,022 |
...You apparently know little of F 1 engines, scopes or the vast variety of rifles folks hunt with ! Know or not know, people who put down you or your equipment ( rather than politely offering advice), because it's not what they use, or put you or the way you hunt down( rather than politely offering advice), because it's not how they hunt... suck.
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,335
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,335 |
Really I know FIVE people who compete in HBR all over the West and ALL their loads are worked up using the same scopes as the match ....... 6X
Hard to practice with equipment different from that you compete with. (in any sport)
As for the "expert" on scopes and engines ..... LAFFIN
A 6x42 Sightron, Leupold etc HBR scope will work just fine for hunting. As for the rifles .... there are plenty of sniper wannabes hunting with rifles weighing as much or more than an HBR rifle.
You apparently know little of F 1 engines, scopes or the vast variety of rifles folks hunt with ! Retard, how many times do you have to banned before it sinks in?
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,320
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,320 |
...You apparently know little of F 1 engines, scopes or the vast variety of rifles folks hunt with ! Know or not know, people who put down you or your equipment ( rather than politely offering advice), because it's not what they use, or put you or the way you hunt down( rather than politely offering advice), because it's not how they hunt... suck. +1 You put it better than anyone I have ever read. You are 100 percent correct. Wish I had thought of it. Your comment should be made into a sticky and automatically come up when ANY thread is opened.
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 317
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 317 |
Well I suppose someone can translate this, BUT the hard FACT remains that very tiny groups are shot by HBR shooters with ONLY 6X scopes and rifles that weigh no more than many used by hunters.
As for what I use or don't use having a thing to do with my comments ..... well it's just wrong.
My gunsafe contains everything from an 1809 Flintlock to a 30-378 Accumark and lots in between. They all work and most have taken game.
When someone can bring hard evidence to the table that higher power scopes produce smaller groups in developing loads for shooting other than hyper benchrest, I'll be happy to change my opinion.
For those who have actually shot long range target will be the first to know that having a spotter with a HIGH POWER spotter, is not to shoot smaller groups but rather to read wind, mirage and track bullet flight. Ditto snipers.
Absent a spotter, a higher power scope might do the same thing for a shooter.
If calling me names gives you a warm tingle down your leg, so be it.
But without facts, that's all you'll get.
Last edited by shooter4570; 03/01/11.
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,320
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,320 |
"For those who have actually shot long range target will be the first to know that having a spotter with a HIGH POWER spotter, is not to shoot smaller groups but rather to read wind, mirage and track bullet flight. Ditto snipers.
Absent a spotter, a higher power scope might do the same thing for a shooter."
I have always thought that the better you could see your target, the better were your chances of hitting it.
Years ago, when I shot Metallic Sil., I used an 18 power scope, for the standing position.
Some days, about mid day, with bright sunshine, and when most of the fresh paint had been chipped off the targets, you could not even see the long range targets with your necked eye. Some of the shooters were snipers from Ft. Benning, and they used M14 sniper rifles fitted with scopes. IIRC, the Leatherwood 3X9 variable. The rifles were also equiped with the issue peep sights, but I never saw anyone using them in competition.
There were a few M14 match rifles around without scopes and they let me shoot them on occasion. Not in competition, but just the oppertunity to fire an M14. I could usually hit the targets I could see when using the issue sights, but, as I mentioned above, in the bright sun and mirage, I could not see the distant targets.
Too bad someone didn't tell them they could have shot better scores with the open sights, or with the scopes set on 3X.
As it was, they had to struggle through with inferior sighting equipment.
The Army and Marines could save a lot of money if they left the scopes off the latest sniper rifles, and used factory iron sights. Maybe someone should write the Army and Marines and tell them about the benefits of the latest discovery in aids to long range shooting.
I have shot enough 600 and 1000 yard matches, some with open sights and others with scope sights, to know that you can get a much more precise aiming point with a scope that with open sights. Some on here apparently do not realize it, but with open sights, you have to line up the rear sight, front sight, and the target. That is not nearly as precise as lining up a reticle and the target, a target that you can see much better with a scope, and lining up a reticle and the target with a high powered scope is much more precise than with a low powered scope.
I guess it all boils down to how much precision you want. For testing loads and a rifle's accuracy, I want all the precision I can get. When testing, I also want the steadiest position available.
That was the question the OP asked. I assume he wanted the most precise testing equipment available. For testing, it is high magnification. For hunting is thick forest, it would be low magnification. For long range hunting, it would be a 4 or 6X scope, or even higher magnification, if conditions warrent it.
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,794
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,794 |
What is a "F1 engine"?? What car does it go in? Is it anything like a "platform'? Or a "boolit" or a "handle"? Are those tactikewl terms used by the in crowd?
Aim for the exit hole.
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,887 Likes: 11
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,887 Likes: 11 |
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 125
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 125 |
He probably thinks an "Auto Union" is the UAW as well.
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