Home Forums Gear Knives and Blades Is SV30 too hard - trends in new steel

SV 30 can be a bugger to sharpen.

Are we making steel too hard - just to sell more knives?

all my ingrams are s30v and i use a lansky diamond set at 20� to sharpen them. i havent had any issues getting them spooky sharp.

I make a lot of knives out of S-30-V and it makes a super knife and hold an edge forever

I just used s30v for the first time a few weeks ago and was extremely pleased. The edge seemed to hold up better than previous steels.


ddj

Too hard? A cutting steel?

Nah.

S30V, as well as S35V sharpen well with the EdgePro. I have no issues with them. CPM 154 as well.

Anyone used the Spiderco sharpener with s30v?


ddj

No, we aren't making steel too hard. You just need a good sharpening system. If you aren't much good at sharpening there are systems out there, like the Lansky and Edge Pro, that take the finesse part out of it.

Any blade steel in the range of RC58 to RC62 is going to be very difficult to sharpen. This Rockwell range is just an example. The range can vary quite a bit up or down, depending on the steel.

To sharpen a knife, steel has to be abraded off to thin the edge. Any steel of the above hardness is going to have what is known as abrasive resistance. That is, it is not going to like being abraded and is going to resist any attempt to remove metal.

In addition to high Rockwell numbers, some steels resist abrasion differently than others. A few examples are D2, F2, S30V and most High Speed Steels.

In combination with high Rockwell numbers, the addition of high carbon and high Vandium will increase the abrasive resistance of a steel.

For example, a steel with 1.5% Carbon will be more abrasive resistant that a steel with 1.0% Carbon at the same hardness.

But, high hardness is what seperates great edge holding from so-so edge holding in a softer blade, although the high hardness does add in some brittleness.

What this means is that for good edge holding, you are going to have to have high Rockwell numbers and a sharpening system capable of abrading these hard steels.

A steel with .85% Carbon should be easier to sharpen than a steel of the same hardness witn 1.5% Carbon, but I cannot comment on what the difference in edge holding of the two would be, although I think the .85% Carbon blade would be more flexible.

Not true.

What really makes some knife steels a lot harder to sharpen is the tougher Carbides. ZDP-189 at RC 67 is easier to sharpen than S-30V at RC58 which is much easier to sharpen than S-90V at the same hardness. Some of the less complex steels without carbides sharpen like butter at RC58.

The other thing that makes knives hard to sharpen is less efficient sharpening tools. Steels that are very tough to sharpen on Arkansas stones aren't that difficult on good waterstones or other methods. Really good tools can make any job easier........................................DJ

Normal steel is pretty easy to sharpen, but some of the newer stuff is getting more difficult to sharpen period.

Now what I'm starting to wonder is if my case and buck knives of the old days are easy to sharpen and hold a edge a long long time how does making the steel harder help.

I guess it comes down to if you you really feel the Case and Buck knives of old hold a edge a really long time. I don't feel that they do.
A jig of some sort and a good series of diamond stones will sharpen the newer steels even for the inexperienced.
I very recently sharpened some D2 and S30V that was RC 60/61 very easily with an diamond stone Lansky set that is over 20 years old and very well used.

You are right that some of the newer more complex steels are harder to sharpen, especially without the right tools.

There are several different ways to make steel hold an edge longer. They all have tradeoffs. You can make the steel harder but that increases brittleness. You can add different carbides to the steel, this increases abrasion resistance without having to increase hardness but makes the steel harder to sharpen and the carbide molecules are bigger than the steel molecules so sometimes you don't get as fine an edge. You can also add Chromium for rust resistance but that can add other issues.

So basically all the different steels are different sets of comprimises. S-30V is a good overall balance of rust resistance, edge holding, and reasonable sharpenability. It will hold an edge longer as most older Carbon steel knives and won't rust near as quickly but it's a bit harder to sharpen. S-90V holds an edge longer than S-30V but at the expense of being even harder to sharpen.

If you have difficulty sharpening you might be better off with a Carbon steel knife or a slightly softer stainless like VG-10. The set of comprimises I prefer might just be different from the set of comprimises that work best for you...................................DJ

I don't object when someone disagrees with me, but I don't really care for someone to claim that a statement I make is "Not True" when it is obvious you do not have any idea what you are talking about.

Being knowledagable about something and telling someone what they say is 'not true' is one thing, but being totally ignorant of the subject and and claiming a statment is not true is another thing entirely.

After reading many of your post, I find it very difficult to believe that you have ever sharpened any knife, even a toy, plastic knife.

Granted, you might have some small experience with factory blades, but any knowledgable knifemaker will tell you that the very first place a commercial knifemaker will cut corners is in heat treating.

To claim that a piece of steel at Rc67 abrades quicker and easier than another steel at Rc58 is so far out in left field that it is hardly worth commenting on.

Statements like this is what I base my claim on that you have little or no experience sharpening or even using knives.

"Normal steel is pretty easy to sharpen, but some of the newer stuff is getting more difficult to sharpen period.

Now what I'm starting to wonder is if my case and buck knives of the old days are easy to sharpen and hold a edge a long long time how does making the steel harder help"

Spot Shooter
Its all relative and using words like "normal steel", "easy", "a long, long time", etc makes it hard to quantify results.

The chemistry, geometry and heat treat variations all effect the performance of a blade. And then you have the materials used and the skills of the sharpener that just adds more.

I personally quit using arkansas stones over 50 years ago when I discovered my Dad's toolmakers bench stones.

I really don't see a difference worth mentioning in sharpening 1095, 52100, A-2, 154CM and S30V with similar geometry and heat treatment (Rc and cryo). I use the same stones and process for all.
Nor have I experienced (in field use) a quantifiable edge holding variation with those steels as noted above.

A lab environment would be needed to really quantify the true variation in performance.
In the mean time we all have questions and unknowns and opinions.
Thats what makes it all fun.
Its kinda like pro football---On any given day....
JMHO
Tim

"A lab environment would be needed to really quantify the true variation in performance."

MRK, I think the lab environment would only tell us how that particular steel would work in that particular lab environment.

I don't think it would tell us much if we were elbow deep in a elk's innards in 0 degree weather, and with night only minutes away.

One thing that I know that will dull a knife very quick is using it for a scraper on something like a seasoned hickory axe handle.

You might test several different steels by scrapping axe handles to determine which would scrape the longest, but I don't know if this would be applicable to being elbow deep in the above mentioned elk.

The only way "elbow deep in an elk's innards" is going to give you a comparison is if you have all the variations you are testing on hand and use them equally. Oh yeah, guess that would be a "lab environment" field test.
Using one blade today and another next year doesn't quite make a reliable test for comparison of (as noted by the original poster) ---
normal vs newer stuff,
sharp for a long long time and
how does making the steel harder help.....

Just my 2 cents, which is only worth 1 cent now
Tim

1234567, What you need to do is go and hand sharpen a half dozen or so knives in S-30V and maybe a couple in S-90v and then go sharpen a few in ZDP-189, then we can talk. Until then you have no basis to factualy enter this discussion. Just actually try it and you'll find out for yourself what I'm talking about.............DJ

IMO there is no real reason not to take advantage of the better edge holding steels avaliable.


DMT diamond stones and learning to freehand sharpen are your friend.

True -

Also true is that guys who can't sharpen very well really have a hard time sharpening harder steel knives.

I just get more harder steel knives from my buddies now is all.