Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns The FBI shoot Out In Miami 1986

Outnumbered and out gunned ? Since when have men armed with handguns out gunned trained men with rifles and shotguns ? I pray that if the day comes when I'm up against any more armed men, that I'm armed with a rifle and he and his buddies have only handguns.
As pointed out, bad tactics. Presumably the FBI agents knew these guys were armed and had military training.
Yes, the event pointed out lack of penetration of the loads used under those conditions. That's why rounds like the 10mm and the 45 ACP have an edge under certain conditions.
They may not kill much better, but they do out penetrate the lessor loads like the 9mm stuff.
Speaking of killing, or stopping, nowadays you can expect anybody you may fight to be high on drugs which can make them tough to stop with any load unless you do a CNS hit. So, the heavier loads are prefered but only to those that shoot them well.
BTW, if you think the Miami shootout was bad, look up the Newhall Shoot Out where four California Highway patrolmen were killed by two bank robbers in the early 1970's. Lots of hard lessons there too. E

http://www.chp.ca.gov/memorial/newhall.html

I believe, however, that the Philippines experience (where they had to break out the old SAAs from mothballs in order to stop the drugged up Moros at close range in massed attacks) was an influence in selecting .45 caliber for the 1911.

Thanks, Derby Dude. I'm very familar with the details. It did not go down as described in the memorial.
Bad tactics and politically correct procedures were the primary cause. E

Failing to see how the Newhall incident is anywhere close.

Hell, that kind of thing can/does happen regularly, though perhaps not with the level of fatalities (body armor, for one thing, stops that).

From personal experience?

No, I wasn't there or in it. But I did get a copy of the blow by blow account.
CHP's stop the car. Driver officer walks up to the driver's side and gets shot dead with .357. Passenger officer then racks a round into his shotgun. He didn't load it probably because he would have to write an extensive report justifying the breaking of the seal which their shotguns were required to have. He then procedes to blow out the back windows of the car with all four rds. of OO buck. With shotgun empty, he then unloads his .357 at said car. When his revolver is empty, he then comes under fire from both BG's. He retreats to the back of his car and attempts to reload. While reloading, he is approached by both BG's on either side of his car and shot dead.
When Bad Guys attempt to leave in their car, the next two cops arrive. The BG's rearm themselves with spare, loaded guns and bring the next two under fire. Cop(s) empty their guns as they have been trained to do, if not out right killed. Don't recall exactly when CHP #3 was killed. The BG's again rearm with spare guns and close in on the remaining cop and shoot him dead as he attempts to reload.
Then they wind up fleeing on foot as a private citzen runs forward and attempts to engage them with fallen officer's gun. He fires the only rd. in the gun and misses.
The whole thing was witnessed by many in the restaurant. BTW, the shootout took place on the approach to the restaurant. Not in the parking lot. The cops stopped them before backup arrived probably to prevent a confrontation in the parking area. E

Your welcome. I used the CHP version as I figured it was the most accurate of all that was posted. I guess I was wrong.

A quick primer on what fighting is suggested to have stimulated the evolution of the 1911 45ACP

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moro_Rebellion

Suggest you pay special attention to the KIA stats listed.

In my reading of the incident, it appears that the mistake was one of hubris and bad luck. It seemed that the Agents had been woefully undergunned with snub nose revolvers, reloads and lack of body armor and long guns. It seemed as the threat of superior numbers (not weaponry) would likely subdue the suspects but they did not take into account the fury the suspects would unleash on them. While many of the Agents shots were on target, they did not provide "stopping power" which allowed themselves to get shot. Unfortunately it is incidents like this that evolve into a better training initiative and tactics for future officers. I think this shootout was an evolution event, only to fade from memory for the LA Bank shootout.

According to the info I have both bankrobbers had handmade body armor. One of the men had armor which covered quite a bit more than a standard police vest would have.
When I was in the Army we used the 45 ACP. The women were allowed to use the 38 S&W revolver if they were not comfortable with the .45 ACP. I suspect that that is why police departments used the 9mm, because they want the women to be able to qualify.
Otherwise they can't be PC and hire women.
Lots of policeman wouldn't know an H&K MP5 from a Colt M 16.
I saw a policeman at a gun safety class demonstrate why you shouldn't point guns at people by firing at a can full of water with a 12 gauge shotgun, then another policeman was going to shoot another water container with a 44 Magnum pistol. At 25 yards, shooting from a bench with sandbags, he was unable to hit the container. Yet most policemen are considered to be experts on firearms merely because they wear one on their belt all day.

Shot next to too many cops at the range to think that. I can usually take their gun and shoot groups half the size they were with it, completely cold.

It seems like police departments in Minnesota want to hire people with bachelors degrees in social work or psychology
not gun slingers. In fact I spoke with a highway patrolmen who told me that they would rather not hire the gunslinger type.
That could be a problem when they need to defend themselves against hardened criminals. IMO
One policeman I used to shoot bowling pins with told me that he almost got run over by somebody during a traffic stop. I asked him how many rounds he had gotten off and he said "NONE"! Which really surprised me because he can shoot five pins in about 3 seconds. He shoots a Glock if that makes any difference. whelennut

Complacency killed the FBI agents that day. They got used to dealing/arresting people that put up little fuss. They knew they were after armed skilled men and most did not put on thier body armor or grab a shotgun/rifle (I heard both were available for the asking).

41magfan said it best. The FBI was not so much out gunned as out smarted. I believe in my own mind that most of the agents thought that those guys would give up just like the hundreds before them had. Only after the shoot out did the start the bullchit of they knew they were after very dangerous men.

Dink

Almost all of our new hires have a degree of some kind and most have never fired a gun until they go to the academy.

I know of a very large agency that wanted kinder gentler policeman. On there exam there was a question asking something to the effect of "Would you rather be involved in a homicide investigation or helping school children cross the road." Anyone that answered homicide thier application was thrown away and they hired the ones that answered to help children cross the road. They hired approximately 50-60 people this way. Now they have 50-60 people that won't fight, chase bad guys or do anything but a Public Relations event....Needless to say they don't hire like that any more.

Dink

The agents were on stake out and had about given up when a team spotted the car and other teams headed that way. The BG's started into a residential area which caused the agents to act when they did. 2 of the agents arrived after the firefight was under way. The agents were using the weapons that they were authorized to use at the time.

They knew these men were dangerous, because the agents knew that these men had shot and killed people during there hold ups even when not necessary

Many years ago I went to an interview that was videotaped while I was asked some pretty strange questions. They must have thought I had some pretty strange answers because I did not get hired.

Ok...a question for you Kevin....how many shots did Madix fire..?

You got to watch the Training Video...I have the ORIGINAL.

Bob

Alot of the older FBI agents, didn't like the new semi's. They prefered their J-frames lighter and easier to carry. I've carried both a S&W 1076 & 1006 until S&W quit making them, and the agency went to a different weapon. I liked the 10mm, but it was heavy and i can see the agents side of carrying it in a suit everyday. Lessens were learned, tactics were improved, new weapons became available.