Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting Is Long Range Hunting an Oxymoron??

Phil

I believe the statement about results was more aimed at if you can hit the center 100% of the time, why worry. If you get into this range debate thing again, its a loosing battle. For if one where to say get close IE 200 or less, I can say why shoot that far, why not have the skill to get into handgun or bow range. Why use scopes on pistols etc...

The whole point to this should be know your max range. Mine may be further than yours or vice versa. And its dependant on conditions, animal etc..... Some days its obscenely long due to many thousands of rounds downrange practice every year not to mention cases of 22 ammo. Other days the 2 second shot chance I get at 50 yards is not workable so you have to pass. At least those with any conscious will pass.

Jeff

I hunt mule deer in the CRP grasslands and wheat stubble farm area's of Eastern WA. Shots beyond 300 yards are the norm here. With lots of practice, good equip. and rangefinders it can be done quite regularly. I have set my personal limit at 500 yards based on what I accomplish from feild positions during summer varmint shooting experiences.

safariman

Yes.
"Hunting" is finding the "game".
When you are pulling the trigger, the hunting is over and the "Shooting" starts.

______________

Unless you underestimated the "long distance" and overestimated your "shooting capabilities", made a piss poor shot, wounded/crippled the animal and now the "real hunting to find the same animal" starts all over again. And it's now 20 minutes until dark.
Old Toot

Yep Old Toot. That exact scenario can happen from the muzzle on to way out there. Distance isn't so much of an issue but capabilities are. There are enough out there that can't hit a barn at 100, much less beyond.

I think Ole Toot said it well.
I've a 500 yard range to shoot on with a solid covered bench. Target backing at each 100 yards out to the 500 holder. When I look at the 500 yard target and see how small a deer is ( they wander on to the backstop) I KNOW that I (note the I) will never attempt a shot at that distance.

Ya know that its all subjective too. I'm sorry I just can't resist. 400-600yards just plain seems very easy to me. But I"ve a bit more practice than most. Now stretch that out to real long range (IE to me LR starts at 800 and goes to 1000+) and I'm like you. It takes a lot to be 100% sure on out there.

Of course I"ll toss this in, I used to have a hard time at 100 when I was a kid. Shakes and all.....

Sorry, ya'll just keep tempting me.

I'm on record that for most folks, just leave it alone.

In my experience, there are some situations where it's a long shot or no shot at all. I'll agree that a lot can go wrong when you're shooting at 400+ yards, but if done with some care by an experienced rifleman, a long shot on game can be pulled off fairly easily. Two seasons ago I killed a 5-point bull elk on a steep avalanche chute in Idaho's Selway. The laser rangefinder showed a range of 506 yards (measured from the dead elk to the large boulder I fired from). I took two shots and both connected in the vitals, the second, because of the uphill angle, went through the spine and dropped him. Several things were in my favor; it was early afternoon with plenty of light left, and I had a very solid rest on my day pack over the boulder. I knew the range, and I had memorized the trajectory of my 7 Mag with 175 grain Noslers (chrono'd a little over 2900 fps). I held a foot or so over the elk's back and the bullets went where I expected them to. I didn't consciously consider the uphilll angle (it was probably 30 degrees or so - I used to measure slope angles when I worked for the forest service so I have a pretty good feel for that). Anyway, it all went well, and under the circumstances getting closer would have been tricky and chances are I wouldn't have been able to get a shot from another angle. I don't recommend long range shooting for everyone, but if you know your trajectory, know the range, and have a good rest and an accurate rifle, it certainly can be done successfully.

Just love this topic! About every 2-3 weeks somebody casts the pattern upon still waters and all hell breaks loose. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> An issue that certainly brings out the opinions and moral pronouncements. There are many forms of hunting I do not pursue, and though I think a few are daffy I'm not going to pass judgement on them. House divided and all that stuff... I only ask that each of you do your level best to bring a humane conclusion to the hunt, and that means knowing your limits and remaining within them.

Well, once I did opine to a bunch of spear hunters that I thought a gaff would be more sporting for hunting bears and hogs... I have my moments of weakness.

Slope angle is one of the easiest things to formulate in. There is a cosine angle indicator device that factors in the angle vs the distance and gives an easy correction for distance. Much like the easy to use mil dot formulas. FWIW

The worst thing is wind and mirage in my opinion. Yet there are few LR shooters that would chance a LR shot if the wind was up to any speed. IMHO anything over 5-10MPH has to many variables. Yet along the way there are many things to help. I watch the grass at 100 yard intervals, the mirage is almost ever present. The leaves in the trees help a lot. And combined with my handy Kestral, makes the wind much easier to manage.

Wind wise I suspect more folks mess up at 300 yards or so because it never dawns on them that wind can be an issue, vs those that know whats up and use what they have in their arsenal to complete the shot.

Did that keep it stirred enough?

Jeff

The open minded part of me says "Dead is dead. If you have the skill to bring it off, then do it."

The prejudiced part of me says "Why don't you just put out land mines?"

And the practical part of me notes that the huge majority of self-styled long range "experts" are worthless shots who are depending on technology to make the hit, at least in my experience.

Personally, I'm more impressed with the hunter who puts himself into stonethrowing distance than I am with the one who brags about how easy 700 yard shots are. YMMV.

Well said Double D!

Never thought about it that way - casting upon still waters and all - but Ii like the way you put it!

Only recently did I spring for a Nikon Laser 800 and play with it a bit. What was enlightening was ranging all the landmark distances in Ohio I had shot throughout my sporting life.

My conclusions are that the rolling hills of north central Ohio can be deceptive. Most of the distances I thought were really "out there" were only between 400-500 yards.

But hill to hill 300 yard shots are common on chucks here. Keep in mind Ohio is a shotgun state for whitetail deer - our only true big game species. Apparently, my tendency was to overestimate the range. I was a "football field" estimator prior to the range finder...

However, I did sight in to reduce my margin of error. With flat cartridges, I would sight in anywhere from 2-4" high at 100 and then tape the ballistics of the particular bullet to the scope.

Under 300-400 yds on a standing chuck - aim at the chest. At beyond what I thought was 400 yds the first shot was at the very top of the head. Horizontal chucks were another matter. Under 350 was no biig deal. Over that and I had to sit and study the range a bit. Usually I aimed on the tip top fur for those and connected more than not. Which underscores my over estimation tendancy.

As for wind - in Ohio, you wait for it to quiet down. Constant 10+ wind is rare except in NW Ohio. If it is worse than 10 mph - I typically wrap it up unless I'm going to walk and hunt.

In my early 20's and best shooting days as a one gun 22-250 shooter - 300 (approx) yard headshots were not unusual.

TM

Noel3006,



Do you really beleive those shooter care what someone else thinks? They are just having fun doing their thing.

Didnt we have this discussion LAST month?? I enjoy truly hunting, I have taken dangerous and non dangerous game at very close range and enjoyed very much the hunt and stalk. On the other hand, I have two deer on my wall taken at 440 and 490 yards and I am proud of them not only for their antler size but largely for the shots made. I do practice a LOT on small varmints to prepare and always use excellent equipment. I will not shoot past 500 yards or past 250 in any apprecialble wind. "A man's got to know his limitations" Thats my thoughts.

Interesting trait of human nature is that it is a common occurance by some types to ridicule & demean those that are capable of doing something that they are totally incapable of accomplishing, both physically & mentally, or perhaps just lacking in experience or proper perspective.

Noel3006

Take this with a grin. My whole point along the way is that we must stick together. You say you are more impressed with close range shots. Maybe thats 100yards or less. You call it stone throwing distance. Do you hunt with stones then?

I'm basically a bowhunter by trade because rifle shots, unless they are very far off, are no challenge to me at all. But I don't ridicule those that hunt with a rifle. I see no challenge in it personally.

There is no place that we should draw the line as long as the result is 100% humane kills. For some thats very close bow shots(my closest is with a homemade recurve, arrow and head at 3 yards on the ground) and for others it may be a long rifle shot. I've shot a 50 enough at over a mile to know that if one practiced and conditions are right a shot of a mile or more is not hard at all.(my longest rifle round is 855 or 856 yards and I dialed in the elevation and wind and it was one shot kill instantly)

So the point here is to be responsible in what you do. Thats why with our deer here I won't shoot my bow past 15-20 yards-- they move too much. I'm capable much further. Muleys I'll shoot further at but not our WT. Handguns I won't fire at game past 75 yards with iron sights, rifles are another subject. You are the one to worry about your own skills, not those of others.

The end result in most hunting endeavors is "pulling the trigger" and its anticlimactic to most. Its only a part of the hunt. It should not be I'll shoot and then go see if I got em. It should always be a 100% knowledge that this is the end. IF I pull the trigger my hunt is over.

Regards, Jeff

I think we can all agree the key words here are "humane kills". And yes we all do possess differing levels of skill
at varous distances. But that's no reason to argue and
degrade the skills and pleasures of a fellow outdorsman.

We all hold disdain for the unskilled pot-shoter who
just hopes to get lucky. Don't we?

I have never practiced shooting my deer rifle past 100 yds.
Since I hunt my home state of West Virginia, there's little
reason to do so. Long distance shooting for me would be
about 200 yards. And most of my shots at game are from the
off hand position.

While living in Idaho 35 years ago, it was a different story.
I toted a magnum and practiced at 200 yards. And I
suppose I'd have felt ok with a 300 yard shot. My hunting
partners could shoot very well at twice that distance.

Never having hunted with a bow, I suppose 10 feet would
be my limit there! And that may be too far?

How can anyone disagree with the statement that it is
hunting up to the point we pull the trigger, then it is shooting?
I like to HUNT! Whether or not I tag a deer is secondary.
My joy comes from being an old fishtard (bass) that is
greatfull for being healthy enough to enjoy stealthily trekking
through the mountains and enjoyiong the great outdoors. I
like the smell of evergreens and decomposing leaves. I'm
not at all bothered by the squirrels or turkeys making a racket. And the fresh air is great since I'm normally a city dweller.

Hell, I find more pleasure in my son taking an animal! As
a yuppie, I don't think he takes enough time to enjoy the
great outdoors. But I can't knock his very large income
either!

So for whatever it is worth, I enjoy HUNTING! Shooting and
killing is just some icing for a very good cake!

To all of the long range hunters,
Did you ever notice that Long range hunting is the only practice or collective activity that if you try and talk about it with others interested in the sport you continually get harassed by people that know absolutely nothing of the sport but continue to take jabs every chance they get?

To the stirrer,
OK so here are some suggested topics for you to post in the rest of the forums throughout this widely diverse site.

Hunting Optics: "Ain't it really stupid to use scopes?" And put whatever words of wisdom you can in there to prove to the world that your longbow can't hold a scope so therefore it is just not right. No wait a minute....low power scopes are OK as they are better than "wonder scopes".

General Big Game. "What, you can't hit small game?" I have been "wanging away" at varmints all my life in Ohio and I don't think you all should shoot at anything bigger than that. Just cuz.....well just cuz.

Elk Hunting: "Is Elk hunting a oxymoron?" And go to explain that if there was an Elk in the rolling hills of your hometown that it would stick out so much like a sore thumb that you should really call it "Elk Sighting" and then "Elk killing" because there really truly is no sport in killing an animal that is as big as a car.

Deer Hunting: "Why do you shoot half grown up Bambi's?" And then go on to explain that if you were a true hunter that you would "stalk"(politically correct cool word)to the point of a completely humane "harvest" by sneaking up and tapping the animal on the hiney with some environmentally friendly sleepy tipped not too sharp arrow that will simply put the animal to sleep for a few minutes in which you can check the teeth wear and determine if it is ethically ready to be harvested. And then once this is done You drive a 32 inch hand whittled arrow with an arrowhead, chipped out of a piece of flint from your great granddads rock collection through the animals heart for a "clean" kill.

BowHunting: "The most ethically humane sportful way to cause puss and gangrene." No wait a minute you wouldn't do that one so I'll skip it. (By the way I shoot bow too)

BigBoresOnly: "Anything bigger than my 22-250 is a waste of lead." And go on to explain that you can shoot 300 yard chucks in the head so therefore the large recoil inherent to a bigbore is unuseful and therefore dumb. Oh just a second it says "BigBoresOnly" So you ain't invited to tick people off.

CustomRiflesand Wildcats: "Remingtons suck!" Oh wait...Dang that one was taken.....

SingleShots: "1 shot, who are you trying to kid" Everyone knows a true hunter needs to be prepared to the point of having a rifles belly full of armour plated premium "hunting" bullets in order to humanely harvest an animal.

Competition Shooting: "I'm a Hunter, Not a Snob Elitist" Explain how all of the nancy girl case prepping and practices have no real application in the real world because rifle shots of over 3 to 400 yards have no practical purpose, unless of course you are one of them there superduper long range 308 sniper guys. Then I guess it's OK or if you hunt gnats at 100 yards, HAR HAR.

Hunting Rifles: "The 30-06 is the most useless rifle made!" Probably wouldn't even cause a rise though because most guys still toting them are grown up enough to take BS pot stirrers with a grain of salt.

I love long range hunting. (Nuff said)


So to yall that think the world is flat good luck to ya. I don't really care if you use a boat oar to take your critter, have at it.

And to yall that know the world is round......I don't really think it is the world turning that causes the three clicks of lateral adjustment at 1k but rather barrel twist.....

Later

Yes, it's an oxymoron, BUT I was exposed significantly to it a couple of years back when by a series of events I was forced into a camp of long range hunters. One was a movie producer filming that late season hunt. I had a series of late night discussions with him and the outfitter on the subject, both very knowledgeable. I've just been sent the DVD, part of which included that hunt. I'm much more tolerant of the sport now providing the participants practice shooting at those ranges and generally follow the recommendations for preparation, including setting up of the equipment.

These guys use heavier rifles with long barrels. The scopes are generally 4.5X14 Leupolds with the elevation turret changed to a tactical turret. Blank knobs are etched with the range based on the ballistics of the particular load for that rifle and they are "proofed" before the hunt during practice sessions. They use Leica 1200 yard range finders, range the game, then turn the turret past the range and back to be dead on, then shoot. About all they can do is "dope" the wind, which is sometimes very hard to do in the canyons and mountains where they hunt. I did see one huge 400" plus bull gut shot and lost because of incorrect wind doping, and that is my objection, but I also observed several one shot drops, and all the hunters got their bull.

Live and let live. It's not for me but I respect their rights to hunt and pursue game as they see fit.

For those interested, the title of the DVD is "Beyond Belief". It is produced by a guy named John Burns, a very knowledgeable shooter. The name of his production company is "Long Range Video Production, LLC". No address appears on the DVD. For those interested, and even those opposed to it, it's worth the $10 or so it costs. One shot flops are taped at ranges from 700 to 1000 yards on elk, also a few on coyotes.

My favorite bumper sticker,
If there is one thing I can't stand it's Intolerance!
GWN <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />