Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Essay - Don't know what you don't know - That's the worst place to be.

I can't prove Rummy was responsible for all the USGI ordnance in Iraq, but a lot of the dates of stuff over there suggests he was.

What however, is not a point of contention is that he screwed up the invasion by sending a fraction of the soldiers necessary for the job, and sent them in there TOTALLY ill-equipped for the mission he sent them on, against the advice of a minority of his senior staff, whom history his vindicated.

The burn center at Ft Sam has been quite busy with the results of his lack of forethought and poor judgement.

TaK;

You're got a personal hard-on for Rumsfeld. For whatever reason, it is what it is. Your personal feelings are your own.

However, if you are who/what you say you are, and do/(have done) what you say you do (have done), then you should have the operational and situational integrity and honesty to acknowledge when, where, and how the facts do not meet with your preconceived ideas or your enotional bias.

Knowing enough to know, that emotional/situational/factual disconnect is what has and does get folks killed.

I would hope that you are better than that.

That's not a slight; perhaps just a nudge into the "hey, wtf man" self-realization of facts/situations.

Rumsfeld has more than enough to answer for on his own, for what his directly responsible for; adding mistakes not his isn't necessary.

True enough, point taken. I stand corrected.

Regardless of politics,
the dang manual safety simply does not belong on the slide.
John Browning and Gaston Glock knew it.

This is the "Handguns" forum. Let's keep it that way.

I couldn't agree more.

All I can say is the best forums seem to have the least moderation. I made the mistake of accepting being appointed a moderator of a few different forums on other websites, and my stance is to be mostly hands off.

So no offense to the op, but trying to be a self apointed moderator is at best a loosing battle Truth sorts itself out, and stupid is the least receptive to correction.

Speeking of handguns, I need to get to the range!

Wholeheartedly, on all points expressed (especially where the damned safety ought to be mounted).

Well, I really wasn't trying to be a moderator. The intent of this post was exactly what the essay said. To point out that the guys who were making incredulous statements may have intended well, but since everyone pounced on them, and they just dug their heels in deeper and deeper, yet really offered nothing of substance...I was trying to tell the guys, while you may have intended well, PLEASE consider that maybe you just don't know, what you don't know.

Clearly they made statements that may not have been "wrong", but they certainly were not "Fact". We come here to learn, and when someone makes a statement of fact, and clearly it's not fact, then generlly someone will call them on it. Most people who have it within them to admit they're wrong, will go something like "Oh, I didn't realize that, or "whoa, I never knew that" or something. Since these two, who clearly are not DUMB took offence to anyone saying they could be wrong.

So I was trying to get them to consider an alternative. Perhaps you don't know what you don't know...happens all the time.

I'm certainly not a moderator, wouldn't want the job, don't think we need one (okay, I was BEGGING for a moderator when we had Liar24, but that was the only time).

My hope, is that we can pull these two out of the nose dive they're in and make them into productive members of the forum, 'cause I think they have something to offer.

Hey, I gave it a shot...CLEARLY I failed...I fail at a lot of things, so sorry I brought it all up.

Not that I have ANY dog in THIS fight, but Mesabi, some food for thought. It's well known that during the late Reagan years, that Rumsfield supplied VX gas missiles to Iraq when it looked like Iraq was starting to lose the Iran vs. Iraq war. That's the weapon that got all the bad press, but while I can't seem to find anything to verify it, I have a hard time believing we sold ONLY our most ugly chemical weapon. And while the only piece of Iraqi artillery that has ever managed to get any press is their South African 155's that were designed by Gerald Bull, they had to have something before that. Given the well established reputation of the splendid accuracy of the US 105, and the huge success it was in international sales for DECADES, I think it's well within the realm of possibility that Iraq had some 105's at some point. If not bought directly from us, then perhaps second hand. And since we were willing to sell the horrendous VX missiles, I don't think it's a stretch to imagine that we could have sold them ammunition for 105's.

Now, this doesn't prove a damn thing. And TAK blames Rumsfield, but Rumsfield was acting on the behes to his president, he NEVER had carte blanche to just run off and sell weapons of mass destruction without the Presidents signature, no matter how much you may hate Rumsfield.

I don't know the first thing about 105's in Iraq; but I can think of at least a dozen ways that most ANY highly common (and the 105 is highly common) artillery could be found in Iraq or any other war zone. I find it HIGHLY possible and even probable that Israel cold have supplied not only the shells, but the guns as well. While it's not extremely common knowledge that Israel sells military hardware to Arab states, it's not exactly some high level secret; I've read more than one story talking about just that...I rememberd these stories because, like probably everyone else, I went "why the hell would they do that?". Israel receives about 2.6 billion in military aid from the US, but it comes with strings; they have to buy US equipment. Well let's say Israel doesn't need 2.6 bil in military equipment, but DOES need 1 billion in cash. Simple, sell off some older equipment that you've just upgraded with from your US aid, and you can raise a billion pretty easily.

So, while the two you you are dukeing it out, I can certainly see ways a highly common artillery shell could end up in Iraq, or just about any other theatre of war. Look at all the other oddball stuff you never thought you'd see in Iraq, but magically appears there. On the firearm side, the good numbers of MP-44 assault rifles is odd (very cool - but odd), but we know the Germans sold them to Syria, and Syria sold them to Iraq.

In the mean time Dink...I've extended my hand; let's bury the hatchet. You begin acting like a gentleman and perhaps think before you post something outlandish. I on the other hand, will work to conduct myself in a much more gentlemanly fashion, and try not to get my tampon in a twist when I see BS.

Or if you'd prefer, we keep it like it is, and I'll just ignore you.

Just let me know our preference sir.

Kevin, I already explained where my information came from: The actual FMS/FMA records. If you want to believe there was some secret conspiracy, feel free to do so, with the understanding that the records aren't secret, but they're a real pain in the ass to dig through. Coming up with a conspiracy theory is much easier than doing nug-work; many people in the media have made a career of it.

Like I said, Iraq captured American M102 (105mm) howitzers and ammunition (which we sold to the Shah) during their conflict with Iran. The South African G5's (based on the Canadian system designed by Bull) were an extremely small percentage of Sadaam's artillery; the bulk was Russian designed 152mm towed and SP systems. Even the 122mm systems were a minority, because on the Middle Eastern battlefield smaller systems like the 105 just don't have the desired range characteristics for mobile warfare.

Also, I didn't know that it was "well-known" that Rumsfeld supplied VX missiles to Iraq. In fact, I'd like to know what "VX missile" the US had in it's inventory. (Of course, the SecDef can't do anything but forward foreign requests with his recommendation to Congress for approval or disapproval. The State Department provides input and licenses sales.) The Soviets that provided the 152mm and SCUD delivery systems must not have liked the competition.

I think you're also way-off on "Germans" selling MP/Stg-44s to Syria. The Soviet Bloc may have provided them from captured stocks, but far more were provided by East Germany to Somalia. Iraq didn't need -44s, they had plenty of East German, Romanian, and domestically-manufactured AKs.

lofl

The "slide" mounted safety is not now, and never has been a "safety". It was always intended to be a Hammer Drop for a double action to single action semi-auto. Once the hammer was dropped, the lever was supposed to go back to fire mode so the weapon could be fired with a pull of the trigger, double action. It was only bureaucrats who decided to employ it as a "safety" and force officers to carry it that way. After that, the "nomenclature" was modified to include the words safety into our vernacular.

It never appeared on single action pistols because it wasn't needed on single action pistols. Those who use it for a safety, are defeating its purpose and the purpose of the pistols it is featured on.

Dan

There-in lies the problem, "the majority" of the senior staff was wrong. Most side with the majority when faced with making tough decisions. I Seems to me that the "proffessionals" (the senior staff) should be the ones of blame, after all it is there proffession to "know these things and they didn't

Regardless of its intended original design intentions (decocker), locating it on the slide is an abortion. Making it function as a safety also is a trainwreck. Period.

The original Beretta 92 had a frame mounted safety.
When the 92S was designed the slide was given a decocker which performed as a safety also. It was not designed decocker only.

Are you referring to the S&W varieties?

I'm glad that's settled.

A "decocker" makes sense, regardless where it's placed. But as the majority of new guns tend to be on the lines of the Glock, any decocker is pretty much obsolete.

Dan

"Now, anonymous from dumbasses who fly off the handle and threaten and psychos who get so torqued up over nothing that they are willing to drive across several states to get their asss whupped, is a different story. A handle provides an extra bit of security. Only a moron would put all their info out there for all the crazies, not to mention all the spiders constantly harvesting info for who-knows-what purpose."

Trick is to not post something that would rile a psycho moron up in the first place. What good does it do? In the mean time, no one's been here to visit me. Of course, if you piss off a cop, you might find them using official means to track you down and put the word out to brothers in your town to remind you of your station in life.

I know of one instance where that happened on another forum.

Dan

Can agree with the need on a DA/SA, on its location not mattering I can not agree.

Striker fired pistols deal with safety in a different manner.

I stand corrected sir, thanks. What I said was something I could envision, at no point did I say any of it was fact.

As to the VX, I put the word missiles, and now that I think about it, I'm not sure it was missiles, but it most certainly was VX. There was a speech where I watched Rumsfield saying the US knows for a fact that Iraq at least HAD WMD's because Rumsfield said HE brokered the deal in the '80's. The speech was about accounting for those weapons. If I saw the interview on television, then I would imagine it's AT LEAST public record, if not common knowledge. Perhaps it's not common knowledge because the MSM has conveniently chosen to forget that speech after we didn't find WMD's in Iraq.

And the story on the MP-44's that I read could have been incorrect. I said they were sold to the Syrians by the Germans...It could have been the East Germans, the story I read was about a decade ago. Regardless, a good number of MP-44's have been found in Iraq. And I wasn't inferring that it was the Iraqi military that had those weapons, but the insurgents. Iraq wasn't on the most friendly of terms with Syria, so I wouldn't expect the Iraqi government bought them from Syria.