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To add to bigwhoop;

The original pre-ST Sako A7s are lighter than the current A7 ST with the soft-touch overmold stock, and lighter than the limited edition Tecomate with the B&C stock. The magnums are heaviest due to the longer barrels, but the reported weights on the S and M actions with original stocks are generally no more than around 5-pounds 15-ounces. Keep in mind that these A7s are based off the Sako75 design but with a modified round top receiver to reduce weight, and the A7 includes the weight of attached scope mounting bases. You eliminate over an ounce when you remove these bases to use the Talley LW mounts. Both my A7 S and A7 M rifles fell under 6-pounds, and as I previously stated, my M 30-06 with mag box now weighs 6-pounds 12-ounces using Talley LWs, and LEU 2-7X scope with Alumina scope covers installed. To add, even though it has a single stack mag box, the open design is such that you can top off the inserted mag box through the port. Because of this feature and because the rifle is compact and light, I've been thinking of taking a stainless pre-ST A7 30-06 and installing a set of Brockman Generation III sights without scope to make a compact/lightweight backwoods beater to leave in my hunting cabin. These rifles are not that bad, the operation of the action, bolt, trigger system, etc. are pretty much Sako75. The barrels are very good, and great deals can be found so that even if you stuck one in a McMillan stock, it would still be cost effective.

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I weighed a few rifles last night and my T3 tikka .308 win came in at 7 lbs 3 oz with a 2.5x8 leupold and the stock rings. It seems a little heavy compared to some reports here but it is older so maybe they have lightened the stock. My 300wsm Model 70 EW in talley lw and a 3.5x10x44 conquest came in at 8 lbs 3 ozs. I'm thinking that for a hardcore hunting setup with the possibilty of long shots under stress this weight is about perfect for me. I still want a kimber for a true lightweight but may now go past the 84L to the 84M in either 7/08 or .308.

I'm kinda in the same boat. It seems like the benchmark for good reports on the Montana is an 84M from what feedback I've read. I'm thinking if the new 84L Montana gets lousy reviews, I'll change gears and start looking at an 84M Montana. I do favor the 30-06 though, so I'm crossing fingers that the new 84L turns out exceptionally well.

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GaryVA,
I too hope the 84L Montanas come in with high marks at the range.
I have the 30-06 and 270 coming so hopefully sooner than later.

I need to add my T3 is a Superlight, not a standard T3 Lite. The Superlight saves another 1/4 pound or so off the regular T3 SS Synthetic. Base weight bare on my T3 .30-06, 22+" bbl, is 5 lbs 12 oz. Also keep in mind with T3's they are all on a standard length actions, so even .308 Win is going to weigh slightly more than a .30-06 in the same gun, due to the smaller chamber, shortened bolt stop and magazine filler. The T3 has the best power to weight ratios, if you stick with a standard length cartridge. Likewise a .270 will also weigh more than a .30-06 by a couple of ounces, just due to the smaller hole in the same taper barrel. My T3 Lite SS Synthetic .338 Win Mag, 24+" bbl., weighs 6 lbs 2 oz bare, (sorry but the Kimber's don't even come close to that) and it still is easily sub-MOA.

I have a Kimber 84M Montana (2009 vintage), its a neat gun, wonderfully designed, mine was poorly executed, and though they kind of fixed it, its still pretty average on the accuracy front, good enough but not great. It's been broken more times than my three Tikka's combined, (all with about the same round count). But even though I may have gotten a "lemon" of a Kimber, I still keep it and use it, but I just don't feel it was a good value, when compare it to my other guns. Just my experience, obviously some others get different mileage.......

An 8400 Montana in 325WSM at 6lb. 2oz. is pretty close.

And I know I'd enjoy shooting it more.


Like I said before, I am old-school, so some of the A7/Tikka construction details just offend me (and please correct me if I am wrong about my assertions, because I have never truly examined either of them enough to be 100% certain on all of these points):

• The injection molded stock (with rubber inserts). I can force myself to like the Montana stock, a McMillan, or similar but just can't like an injection molded stock.
• The trigger guard which is part of the stock, and is webbed to provide adequate strength. Purely aesthetics. I just prefer a more traditional design.
• The lack of a short-action to house short-action cartridges. I hate design for manufacturing shortcuts, ala post-64 M70.
• The detachable magazine (and the price of them). I just prefer a hinged floorplate, or even a blind magazine.
• A detachable magazine that protrudes below the stock. An ergonomic issue.
• Other plastic components. Because I'm old-school.
• On the plus side, the use of plastic components allows the use of heavier barrel contours, while still remaining light.

To me, the stock and all steel construction of the Kimber is easily worth the $300 premium over an A7. And my experience with multiple Kimber rifles has been good, so I don't have that fear of the unknown.

On average, I am sure the Tikka/A7 will be more accurate than the Kimber. Kimber puts the weight in steel parts, while Sako/Tikka puts the weight in the barrel.

But all of them are lightweight hunting rifles, not benchrest rifles, so to me sub-moa is easily good enough.

At the end of the day, I just feel better with the Kimber in my hands.

And especially if it has a nice piece of walnut.

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"The injection molded stock (with rubber inserts). I can force myself to like the Montana stock, a McMillan, or similar but just can't like an injection molded stock."

- Mine does not have any rubber inserts. It's a modern made plastic stock. The ergonomics of this stock are near perfect for me, and it is near as light as an Edge. It is not a heavy duty stock for mounting a heavy bi-pod and/or using a USMC tight sling, but for an ultra-light stock, it is very durable if you use the front swivels as intended.

"The trigger guard which is part of the stock, and is webbed to provide adequate strength. Purely aesthetics. I just prefer a more traditional design."

- My trigger guard is not part of the stock. It is a traditional one-piece design that uses two T-25 action screws to mount. The plastics used is along the lines of a Glock or Sig and it is very strong and durable. Factory specs for torquing the T-25 action screws is 55-57 in-lbs!! It is not a weak part.

"The lack of a short-action to house short-action cartridges. I hate design for manufacturing shortcuts, ala post-64 M70."

- The Sako A7 uses the correct length action without spacers. It is very well designed.

"The detachable magazine (and the price of them). I just prefer a hinged floorplate, or even a blind magazine.
A detachable magazine that protrudes below the stock. An ergonomic issue."

- The Sako magazine is excellent. It does not protrude to be an ergonomic issue, it can be treated as a blind magazine if you wish, or it can be treated as a drop box if you wish. Though the A7 has a single stack design, my 30-06 can be easily loaded from the top with the mag box inserted, no different than a drop box or blind mag. The latch system used is outstanding.

"Other plastic components. Because I'm old-school.
On the plus side, the use of plastic components allows the use of heavier barrel contours, while still remaining light."

- The plastics used are extremely tough. In a durability test, they would more than likely outperform the traditional light alloys and the eggshell design light stocks used that you prefer. Same as how the plastics used in the Glock and SigPro performs well in the military durability and drop tests.


Not sure from what hole you are pulling your statements, but it sounds like you are talking from emotions and not facts. The A7 is not a bad gun at all. You can pick apart most any firearm design. One could pick apart any synthetic stock as being bad, when compared to Guild standards of wood. One could pick apart any stainless gun, when compared to Guild standards of well finished chrome moly. Even these eggshell stocks that everyone seem to love are in reality very weak due to their construction design. They are light, but they are weak when compared to traditional designs.

Speaking only for my A7s, they are probably the best bang for the buck I've found in a new purchased rifle in many years. They are not my favorite rifle to best suit my personal taste, but they are good rifles for what they are.

Best

Being that I work at a gun shop, I've had to handle the new 84Ls for awhile now. My biggest problem is deciding between a select grade .30-06, or .280 AI.
I'm also not sure if the .280s are chambered for P.O. Akleys version of the improved, or Noslers .004 shorter version. If they are the old standard, then Nosler ammo will have excessive head space issues when used in these rifles.
Since I handload this is not an issue for me, but would be for the factory ammo shooter.

As I indicated in my post, I have not examined an A7 to know if all of my "negatives" apply to the A7 also. Thanks for the information. It sounds like the A7 is a real upgrade from a T3.

I am glad you like your rifle. As I said, I am sure it is as accurate as you claim.

But there isn't much use in continuing the discussion, because we are into personal preferences, and you aren't likely convince me, nor I you.

You'll never convince me that the Montana stock isn't worth $300 more than the A7 IM stock.

You'll never convince me that steel parts aren't preferable to plastic parts.

And I'll never like a plastic detachable magazine on a bolt-action rifle. Especially one that protrudes below the stock line.



But Gary, life is short. Why wouldn't you buy your favorite rifle to best suit your personal taste?

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Yep. That's a tough one. Has a 280AI passed through your shop yet? I still haven't seen one.

My biggest problem is convincing myself that I should buy a Montana for tough conditions and lousy weather. I'd rather just buy another Classic Select.

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But I do have quite a few favorites, I'm not a single brand show. Pre-64, Post-64s, Mauser, Sauer, CZ, Ruger, Sako75, Sako85, M7, Voere....

Not trying to convince you of anything, I use both A7s like tackle box gun guns, one for yotes, one for general purpose. I don't mind loaning them out, and if someone breaks into the cabin and steals both, I won't be out of much money and I won't lose an old cherrished favorite.

That's why I'm on this thread, interested in bringing a Montana into the fold

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