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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,860
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,860 |
I've read the 16in guns weren't reliable. An M14 doesn't have an adjustable gas regulator, it is designed for 147-150gr bullets. It is an open-top action, that fills up with crud.
I'd pick an FAL for a gas-gun. An 18in Para version. I'd avoid the standard stock as they have a rediculously long LOP.
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 35,293
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 35,293 |
What the hell do bears need protection from?
For crying out loud... now I'm not going to sleep tonight.
jeesh.
Something clever here.
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,939 Likes: 3
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,939 Likes: 3 |
Here's a hypothetical question on Alaskan Bear protection. How would a 16" barreled Springfield Armory M1A with a 20 round magazine loaded with 180 grain hunting bullets work on the Bruins up there? I'd especially like Phil's opinion on this: http://springfield-armory.com/armory.php?model=22P.S. I'm not planning a trip to Alaska antime soon It would work just fine. I carried an M1 Garand for a short while as well as a 500 Beowulf but for me they just didn't feel right as a hunting rifle.
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 86,252 Likes: 25
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 86,252 Likes: 25 |
Question from someone who has NO experience stopping bears- Wouldn't a Remington 760 pump in 30/06 stoked with Barnes or Nosler bullets be far superior to the 870 12 gauge?
Royce That's kinda funny coming from you Fred, because that's the exact reason I bought one of them things! I likes it as a camp gun.
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time. --Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice. --ironbender
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 86,252 Likes: 25
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 86,252 Likes: 25 |
The idea that less-skilled individuals should use even larger rifles is both funny and sadly, the way things too often are.
And that's funny because that's the same "discussion" I had with our 1D10T friend Murph over there.
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time. --Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice. --ironbender
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 86,252 Likes: 25
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 86,252 Likes: 25 |
A bigger bore might make you feel better but It's bullet placement and bullet performance that kills bears. Yep. Ol' what's his pockets here always said: Placement, Boolit, Cartridge. He mighta been on to something.
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time. --Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice. --ironbender
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,635
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,635 |
The more I see of Murphy's writings the more it cracks me up... And those sycophants calling him "professor"...
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 223
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 223 |
The best gun for bear protection is the one you have in your hands when a bear attacks and you can hit a moving target the size of a softball at 10 to 15 yards with it.
I've never been a fan of having a gun specifically for "bear protection". I believe I am a lot more likely to have my hunting rifle in my hands when a bear attacks and I better be able to use it to defend myself. Low powered scopes that you can shoot with both eyes open or iron sights are the way to go.
Try this and see how you do: Take a thicker balloon and fill it about a third full with water and a third full with air. Don't fill it all the way so it has some stretch to it. Hang the balloon from a tree branch with some string. Have someone get it good and swinging over an arc of a couple feet. The water will slosh around and cause erratic side to side and up and down movement in a manner I believe is a decent simulation of a bears head moving as he charges (my esitmation is only from one in person charge and a few internet videos, so it might not be perfect). When your swinger clears, draw your rifle or pistol from where you'll likely have it when hunting. Try hitting that balloon at 10 yards in under two seconds. Now consider how well prepared you are to defend yourself from a bear charge.
I put over 500 hundred rounds through my duty pistol every year and that is barely enough to stay proficient at the level that I could hit that balloon in the non-stressful conditions at the range. Sadly, I put a lot less rounds through my hunting rifle and I'd be lucky to hit that balloon a third of the time. It's my opinion that the argument of what is an acceptable caliber for bear defense is largely irrelevant because the vast majority of hunters, myself included, will likely not be able to hit a bear in the stressful conditions encountered when it charges. My recommendation is to pick a familiar and comfortable rifle and practice, practice, practice.
"Beware the man with only one gun; he may know how to use it."
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 86,252 Likes: 25
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 86,252 Likes: 25 |
Everyone "professes" something!
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time. --Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice. --ironbender
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,317
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,317 |
The best gun for bear protection is the one you have in your hands when a bear attacks and you can hit a moving target the size of a softball at 10 to 15 yards with it.
I've never been a fan of having a gun specifically for "bear protection". I believe I am a lot more likely to have my hunting rifle in my hands when a bear attacks and I better be able to use it to defend myself. Low powered scopes that you can shoot with both eyes open or iron sights are the way to go.
Try this and see how you do: Take a thicker balloon and fill it about a third full with water and a third full with air. Don't fill it all the way so it has some stretch to it. Hang the balloon from a tree branch with some string. Have someone get it good and swinging over an arc of a couple feet. The water will slosh around and cause erratic side to side and up and down movement in a manner I believe is a decent simulation of a bears head moving as he charges (my esitmation is only from one in person charge and a few internet videos, so it might not be perfect). When your swinger clears, draw your rifle or pistol from where you'll likely have it when hunting. Try hitting that balloon at 10 yards in under two seconds. Now consider how well prepared you are to defend yourself from a bear charge.
I put over 500 hundred rounds through my duty pistol every year and that is barely enough to stay proficient at the level that I could hit that balloon in the non-stressful conditions at the range. Sadly, I put a lot less rounds through my hunting rifle and I'd be lucky to hit that balloon a third of the time. It's my opinion that the argument of what is an acceptable caliber for bear defense is largely irrelevant because the vast majority of hunters, myself included, will likely not be able to hit a bear in the stressful conditions encountered when it charges. My recommendation is to pick a familiar and comfortable rifle and practice, practice, practice. I'm going to get on that as soon as I finish my "lightening dodging" training. People really love to worry about bear attacks...
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 86,252 Likes: 25
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 86,252 Likes: 25 |
[quote=Kay9Cop
Try this and see how you do: Take a thicker balloon and fill it about a third full with water and a third full with air. [/quote] What is the other third?
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time. --Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice. --ironbender
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 5,787
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 5,787 |
Member of the Merry Band of turdlike People.
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 |
All of my time in Brown bear country was spent with a 30/06 and 200gr Partitions.
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 4,950
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 4,950 |
Were you ever killed by a brown bear for want of a bigger cartridge?
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 58,549 Likes: 8
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 58,549 Likes: 8 |
I've been trying to get eaten,for alotta years...but haven't been able to pull it off yet.
Have toted AR's,Mini's,M1A1's,HK-91's,Garands and a plethora of bolt guns,wheel guns and self-shucker pistoles. Boolits matter more than headstamps and too many are looking to purchase practice and that simply cain't be did.
All Time Favorite? S&W 422 22LR.....................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,755
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,755 |
Sure you can kill a bear with an '06, but to stop a charge?.....doubtful, unless you're real lucky! If you're real lucky, you wouldn't have a bear charging you in the first place.
He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice.
- Albert Einstein
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 17,491
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 17,491 |
People really love to worry about bear attacks...
That's the truth.....and that the only bear attack one will encounter is a freight train charge.
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 223
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 223 |
too many are looking to purchase practice and that simply cain't be did. I couldn't agree more. In 30 years of hunting I've only been charged once. In 21 years on the job I've only been in a deadly force situation twice. Just because either doesn't happen often doesn't mean there isn't a need to practice and be prepared. It only takes one miss at a critical time to get seriously injured or dead.
"Beware the man with only one gun; he may know how to use it."
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,939 Likes: 3
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,939 Likes: 3 |
Question from someone who has NO experience stopping bears- Wouldn't a Remington 760 pump in 30/06 stoked with Barnes or Nosler bullets be far superior to the 870 12 gauge?
Royce No....a 30 caliber bullet is not exactly considered a bear stopper. Sure you can kill a bear with an '06, but to stop a charge?.....doubtful, unless you're real lucky! I have to agree with Steelhead on this one. If you know how to shoot the 30-06 with 200-220 Partitions will work just fine. The world record brown bear was taken with one and I have used mine to stop close range charges. Althought I have posted this photo before it is me with a brown bear I had to wrinkle out of the pucker brush two years ago after a client wounded it. It charged from 20 feet away and my 30-06 with 220 partitions worked again.
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Joined: Jun 2002
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,030 |
Darn it, Phil. There you go putting forth real world experience.......this is the internet for crying out loud; where opinion trumps experience! Jeff
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