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Joined: Mar 2004
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Campfire Tracker
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A runout guage has changed more than a few minds on what dies and presses are and aren't really worth the money........................DJ
Remember this is all supposed to be for fun.......................
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 17,491
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 17,491 |
A few years ago some scribe had done some tests on various presses to determine who was building the most precisely machined presses. At that time, as I recall, it was nothing fancier than a Lyman Orange Crusher press which took the title.
It would be a pretty awful (defective) piece of equipment which would not make accurate - not necessarily benchrest- ammo. Operator error is probably a bigger factor in making ammo that shoots less well than the brand stamped on the equipment. Regardless what you may think about Lee products in general -(and they do make some very good, precise ammo-making stuff, as well as some rather pot-metallic stuff), the Classic Cast press is a well-made product.
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 26,332 Likes: 11
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 26,332 Likes: 11 |
I have been looking at getting a RCBS Rock Chucker Supreme or a Lee Classic Cast Iron Press.
I am leaning towards the Lee, but I would like to get some input from those with more experience.
Thanks!! I currently have a RC I, a RC II, a Jr2, Jr3, and a Lee Classic mounted on my two loading benches. I bought the Lee soon after they came out for $55 plus shipping, and I love it. But my fav press is my Jr 2 I got for Christmas 35+ years ago. Alas, the Jr's are no longer offered by RCBS. And...RCBS has the best warranty on the planet........
Casey
Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,124
Campfire Tracker
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The Lee is the last one designed,so it has more features.
The RCBS ones do wear out. My buddy was showing me his new Mag-7 press,I ran the ram to the top and tried to move it side to side,just a few thou. Then I went over to his 30 year old Rockchucker and said "This is wore out!".The next time I visited his reloading room there was a new RCBS. He couldn't bring himself to buy a red press.
You can hunt longer with wind at your back
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,742
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,742 |
Slop in the ram isn't necessarily a bad thing. Some float allows less torque in the sizing and seating operation. This contributes to less run out. Proof of this can be found in the Forster Co-Ax press which floats the entire die to reduce run out.
For the OP I've used both presses and for me it really comes down to whether you like a press that cams over or not. I prefer the cam over function and feel it's a more consistent method.
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Joined: Jan 2008
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Posts: 589 |
For the OP I've used both presses and for me it really comes down to whether you like a press that cams over or not. I prefer the cam over function and feel it's a more consistent method. I am the opposite. Have had both types and I prefer the solid stop. I find it handy when I want to do a partial full length resize. I hold the press hard against the stop, screw the sizing die hard against the shell holder, and then back it off the required amount. Much harder to do with the cam over style. Head separation on cases could probably be eliminated if reloaders would take the time to back their sizing die off enough to stop excessively bumping the shoulder. Besides having the solid stop type lets you sleep better at night. The cam over guys lie awake wondering "Should I cam over, or should I not? Does caming over size my case too much or too little. Is caming over hard on my press, or dies, or ..."
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Joined: Mar 2004
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Reading the comments about the Lee's lack of Cam over almost makes me curious enough about one to try one just to see if I'd like that or not.
I tend to think that I wouldn't. I've bought a couple different lots of 1x fired brass that was a little long on headspace +.006 to +.008 and I've not been able to get such brass properly resized to .000 or -.001 headspace without using cam over.
Last thing I probably need is another press but hmmm..............DJ
Remember this is all supposed to be for fun.......................
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Joined: Nov 2009
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Without hijacking a thread and since it's been brought up, I'd like to hear about how cam over or the lack of it, benefits or takes away from producing top shelf handloads.
Men ocassionaly stumble over the truth from time to time but, most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing happened.
- Winston Churchill-
NRA Endowment Life Member
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Joined: Mar 2004
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Without hijacking a thread and since it's been brought up, I'd like to hear about how cam over or the lack of it, benefits or takes away from producing top shelf handloads. As mentioned above I'd like to see if a press without Cam-over is able to properly size oversized brass down to nominal. I may have to buy a Classic just to see......................................DJ
Remember this is all supposed to be for fun.......................
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 4,313
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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The positive stop is nice, but there is still some spring in the system. In the example of when I resize once fired '06 from Garand and Springfield matches that may or may not have been fired in my rifle I size them to fit the L. E. Wilson cartridge length gauge. This is done on a Lee classic with Lee dies. About 90% to 95% fit with the die turned in 1/12 rotation from contacting the shell holder. With the die turned out farther they come out long. The ones that are still long I size again with the die turned in an additional 1/24 rotation. I repeat as needed, and once the die is 1/3 rotation in from the shell holder no shorter sizing will result from turning it in farther. Even at this point about 0.5% of the cases will not fit the gauge, and I chuck those.
Resizing cases from my sporter bolt guns often does not require the die to be turned in from the shell holder at all and can be backed out some. This varies both with load and rifle, and some cases will need up to the full 1/3.
The point is that even at the solid stop there is up to 0.024" springiness in the press. A more solid linkage system could be designed to eliminate this, but not at a cost proportionate to the problem. In other words the work around to solve the springiness is functional and much less costly.
Brushbuster: "Is this thread about the dear heard or there Jeans?"
Plugger: "If you cant be safe at strip club in Detroit at 2am is anywhere safe?"
Deer are somewhere all the time
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Joined: Aug 2010
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,370 Likes: 43 |
The Lee is the last one designed,so it has more features.
The RCBS ones do wear out. My buddy was showing me his new Mag-7 press,I ran the ram to the top and tried to move it side to side,just a few thou. Then I went over to his 30 year old Rockchucker and said "This is wore out!".The next time I visited his reloading room there was a new RCBS. He couldn't bring himself to buy a red press. Been using my Rock chucker for 15 years now and it is still like a virgin  . Don't know how many thousands of rounds I've loaded with it 
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,944 Likes: 12
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,944 Likes: 12 |
Been using my Rock chucker for 15 years now and it is still like a virgin . ... If you decide to deflower it at some point, I would be a bit leery of the threads (unless your diameter is less than standard thread size). Imperial Sizing Wax might help, but I wouldn't completely count on it. 
Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.
Happily Trapped In the Past (Thanks, Joe)
Not only a less than minimally educated person, but stupid and out of touch as well.
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,749
Campfire Tracker
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The positive stop is nice, but there is still some spring in the system. In the example of when I resize once fired '06 from Garand and Springfield matches that may or may not have been fired in my rifle I size them to fit the L. E. Wilson cartridge length gauge. This is done on a Lee classic with Lee dies. About 90% to 95% fit with the die turned in 1/12 rotation from contacting the shell holder. With the die turned out farther they come out long. The ones that are still long I size again with the die turned in an additional 1/24 rotation. I repeat as needed, and once the die is 1/3 rotation in from the shell holder no shorter sizing will result from turning it in farther. Even at this point about 0.5% of the cases will not fit the gauge, and I chuck those.
Resizing cases from my sporter bolt guns often does not require the die to be turned in from the shell holder at all and can be backed out some. This varies both with load and rifle, and some cases will need up to the full 1/3.
The point is that even at the solid stop there is up to 0.024" springiness in the press. A more solid linkage system could be designed to eliminate this, but not at a cost proportionate to the problem. In other words the work around to solve the springiness is functional and much less costly. Thanks for the detailed response Youper, well done. I suspected that what you mentioned might be the case. I've found that a little cam over can end the problem without having to chuck too many cases but who knows? It might be best to go ahead and chuck those cases anyway vs sizing them down to nominal. I too use the L.E. Wilson guages and also like the RCBS Case Micrometer because it will give you an actual reading of how far your cases have been sized down to thousandths. I still may try a Classic some day but after reading your post I'd lean even further towards an RCBS or other that does have the Cam-over. In my mind it seems best to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it, the price difference is relatively insignifigant vs the cost of components used over the life of the press...............................DJ
Remember this is all supposed to be for fun.......................
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,491
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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"As mentioned above I'd like to see if a press without Cam-over is able to properly size oversized brass down to nominal. I may have to buy a Classic just to see"
There is absolutely no difference in what can be done with either type. The process goes from pushing on the lever to rotate the toggle and the toggle lifts the ram. When the ram gets as high up as it can go the toggle is said to be at "top dead center"; that's as far up as the ram will go. Those presses which do not 'cam over' have a stop that prevents further toggle rotation, those that do cam over simply have the stop just passed top dead center and that's all there is to it. Die adjustment is the same for either press design, therefore what we do to cases depends on how we adjust the die, not the 'cam over' feature.
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,749
Campfire Tracker
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"As mentioned above I'd like to see if a press without Cam-over is able to properly size oversized brass down to nominal. I may have to buy a Classic just to see"
There is absolutely no difference in what can be done with either type. The process goes from pushing on the lever to rotate the toggle and the toggle lifts the ram. When the ram gets as high up as it can go the toggle is said to be at "top dead center"; that's as far up as the ram will go. Those presses which do not 'cam over' have a stop that prevents further toggle rotation, those that do cam over simply have the stop just passed top dead center and that's all there is to it. Die adjustment is the same for either press design, therefore what we do to cases depends on how we adjust the die, not the 'cam over' feature. I see what you are saying but I'm still not so sure that there isn't a certain mechanical advantage to being on a certain part of the cams linkage at the top of the stroke. There's a difference in die adjustment between turning the die until it touches the ram, touching + 1/4, +1/3 turn etc.. Basically I'm wondering what presses have better mechanical advantage when you are taking the flex out of the presses.....................................DJ
Remember this is all supposed to be for fun.......................
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Posts: 2,155
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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It's important to keep them lubricated. A judicious drop or two of oil on the pins and a wipe of the ram with an oily rag will minimize wear. My 33 year old rockchucker has virtually no play...as tight as new one. A friend who loads a lot, but never thought to give the press a little rem oil has play in his rockchucker (hmm...that doesn't sound that bad, actually) that I'm pretty sure could have been avoided. I don't use much oil, but hit it with whatever gun oil I'm using every 500 rounds or so. I grew up on a farm, and learned that you oil open bearing surfaces so they don't gall and wear!
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