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Excuse me, but that is the most obtuse thing I've read on the 'Fire today.

Okay, I'll spell this out in small words and short sentences so you'll have a chance to understand.

Profitable industries pay tax, because people want what the industry is selling. Unprofitable industries do not pay tax, because there aren't enough people who want their product to meet costs of production.

A tax deduction on income a profitable industry has earned means the government is not taking as much of your profits away from you as they feel they are "entitled" to. A subsidy is tax money the government pays to a company or industry so it has a chance to make a profit. Tax deductions are capitalistic in nature, whereas subsidies are fundatmentally socialistic in nature.

Tax deductions and subsidies are both incentives, but beyond that they have nothing in common.

Your words: He [Pawlenty] will say whatever gets him the most primary votes.

Rewriting VEETC is sound policy and backed by the ethanol industry, not a lie for votes.

If you say so JOG. I stand by he will suck up to whatever will get him the primary nod. That is his ONLY motivation.

Every industry wants a tax exemption credit. But only the politically popular will get it. As soon as it is not perceived as politically popular, it goes away. And for sure the VEETC is being perceived as politically unpopular by the Tea Cuppers. So, he has to be against it, at least through the nomination process, and hope that won't hurt him too badly in Iowa and other cornbelt states. It is smart politics.

If it happens to be good economic policy, that is totally coincidental.

You gotta way with words, Doc.

Brent,

The point is rewriting VEETC will help Pawlenty in Iowa, and he is siding with both Iowa Sen. Grassley and the ethanol industry. You guys seem determined to interpret this as Pawlenty throwing the industry under the bus - the opposite is true.

No, not at all. I don't give a damn for the ethanol industry and I would rather see it taxed out of existence than subsidized with tax exemptions. But let's call a spade a spade. Pawlenty road the ethanol bus when it was popular to do so, and now he recognizes that he goes nowhere w/o the Tea Cuppers and so he has changed his tune. He did not suddenly find religion. He just found that the lines in the sand have shifted.

The same can be said of the once Honorable Grassley. He used to speak a lot more independently, but no more. The Tea Cuppers have him scared too, so he has changed his tune big time. I don't mind his shift against the ethanol subsidies (I have always opposed EtOH), but I do dislike his sudden change of heart that represents nothing more than going with the flow. I no longer trust him any more than I would Harkin - less in fact.

Your not reading the whole story. Both Pawlenty and Grassley want a rewrite to trade VEETC for a blender pump tax credit for service stations.

AND THAT is a problem. Blender pumps are the last thing we need.

EtOH, doesn't need a new form of subsidy it simply needs to go away. Period. End of story.

I like the Tea party, and I like Pawlenty, but I think it's quite a reach to say the tea party is infuencing pawlenty to do anything.

We've learned a lot about ethanol since it's early promisses and proposals. Pawlenty included in "we".

I was gonna say that!

You got him pegged this guy is a POS.

Cap and trade greenie.

You might be the only person in the world that believes that. After the 2010 elections, it's pretty clear the Tea Cuppers have a huge say in who is in and who is out. Just watch Bachmann. She wouldn't even exist w/o them.

EtOH has been a known non-solution for a long long long time.

I'll admit I was looking at it wrong awhile back until SteveNo gave me a quick education the hard way.



Sometimes you hear the propaganda in the media so much, you believe what you hear without thinking about it.




Give the guy a break. Some of us, myself included, just need the facts to be brought to our attention.

Docrocket, I think it's a tax deduction they don't need. When these oil companies make the most profit of any company in the history of the country. And every big and small business and the gas buying public suffer for their single gain, I think they really don't need help from the taxpayer. How much is enough money? If their profits doubled would the tax break still be needed? And by the way, lay off the name calling.

they make huge profit cause of volume....per unit they dont make a hell of alot....their mark up aint a hell of alot...

It needs to go from 'huge' to 'overwhelming' I think she's been helped for sure, but they came later - she's been conservative before they evolved..

I can't believe we agree BrentD, but we DO DO DO...

Rattler, you hit the nail on the head.

luke- I tried to school you on corporate profits before. If these facts piss you off, I'll take you to be a liberal.

The oil companies turn less than 10% profit, which by Wall Street standards, places them in a non-healthy status. You think 15 billion profit is a huge number? It is, but when it's made on a 175 billion or so in sales, it's not. Any company that can consistently turn 15% or greater for several years is very healthy and worth watching. Over 20% and they are dynamic. The oil company profits are hardly exciting, not only to them, but to their share holders and Wall Street as well.

On second thought, maybe you're one of those that think they shouldn't be making anything at all? That's what I'm thinking, since you keep bringing up this conversation. High gas prices hurt everyone Luke, but the $4.00/gal isn't making the oil companies rich.

And you know this how? Have you looked at their financials in detail? Do you know how much profit is necessary to keep their stocks competitive in the market? How much of their profits go to individual stockholders, who are real people like you and me? Do you begrudge these people the return on their investment?



Why is making a large profit a bad thing, luke? Are you buying into the socialist propaganda that "profit" is an obscene concept?

Again, tax deductions are not "help from the taxpayer". The taxpayer pays nothing to the oil companies directly (we pay a helluva lot of tax on gasoline at the pump, though!). Corporate tax deductions are incentives to a corporation or industry to keep working hard to produce something that the nation really needs. The petroleum industry pays enormous sums of money in the form of various taxes, but it needs to keep making profits to keep the oil flowing. Cut off the profits, and you might as well park your car and buy a horse. That's the bottom line reality of this discussion.

Your first post betrayed your ignorance of basic economics. This second post betrays your socialist leanings.

As for "name calling", I will heed rattler's advice and cut you a break. I said you were dense, but perhaps you're not. Perhaps you've simply bought into the socialist economics propaganda that they fill the schools and media with. You owe it to yourself to get some education in the realities of markets and taxation.

he also doesnt seem to realize that a hell of alot of similar deductions are available for small businesses....i know i take advantage of a bunch for my business.....did i ask for them? nope....but i aint gonna turn them down either.....