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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2007
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Maybe there will be answers to all these questions in four or five months.
Retired cat herder.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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[quote=curdog4570]You ought to count the "may" , "if", "maybe", "could" etc. words in your post, DINK.
You are trying to defend an ACTUAL wrong by using hypothetical justifications.
That's a lawyer trick which might impress Bob.
Not me. You have to use "may", "maybe", "could" and "ifs" when no facts are known. There are few facts known so everything else is a wild azz guess. It is not a wild ass guess that cops launched 71 projectiles into a small area containg a woman and child. They may not have known the women and kids were there. This guy is supposed to be a drug runner and a person that had done home invasions do you really think he put his family first? There is a very good chance she only comes around for a dope fix or pay day to get what money she can from him and does not stay there everyday/night. They fired 71 rounds from 5 weapons in seven seconds according to the reports. It was also reported that they hit him 60 times. If that is true those guys are some of finest operators around. They kept their cool and fired thier shots and made them count. Its true that there was a women and children inside the residence but it still did not keep him from starting a gunfight inside the house. You want to hold it against the police for this gunfight happening but they did not start it. According to one of the reports they told him to drop it when he raised it toward them. Its very easy to justify why they backed out of the house. Remember they are after several subjects at the same time and there is a good possibility that other armed turds are inside the residence. After the first shots were fired the police still had to think about the neighbors/public. It would have been irresponsible for them to continue in the house knowing that any other turds in there would probaly have fired shots hitting other homes. The insurance company will pay. It will be much easier to throw a few thousand dollars at her so she goes away. Its easy money for her attorney so they will take the first settlement offered. When watching one of the video the wifes attorney stated several times that it was the wifes goal to clear her husbands/marines name. The attorney never stated that it his goal to clear the husbands/marines name. I thought that was odd. Of course the wife is going to say what a great person he was. Everyone is a great person when they killed by the police. Its kinda like the bum that sits on the same street corner everday for years drinking 40's. Let him stumble infront of a car and get hit and all of sudded he was going to get a job the day he was hit by the car. He will have no input to if he was guility or not. He made that choice when he pointed a gun at the police. All you have done in this post is to smear a man and woman you don't even know .In opposition to all the things you say he MAY be , I remind you of one thing he most definitely WAS and his death does not diminish that . He was a Marine who served two tours in Iraq.The fact that some cops SUSPECTED him of going bad can never take THAT away from his legacy.At least during his time in active service , he was more of a man than you will ever be. You are my second person to ever put on "ignore" .Say hello to TRH when you get there. You smear every officer of a department and swat team and thats ok. Your taking up for a man that had a warrant signed against him because they had enough PC that he was involved in dope running and home invasions. I take the side of the cops anyday. His death was his doing. No one elses. He knew what was going on and decided to do something stupid. Him being a marine matters not one bit in this case. He might have been a great marine 5 years ago that does not mean he's not a turd today. Awwwww you put me on ignore. Don't forget TRH wants to have a word with you. Dink
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,961 Likes: 54 |
Maybe there will be answers to all these questions in four or five months. By then, if you bring it up again, Bob will inform you that it's old news, then suggest that your need to bring up old news of that sort means you have a bias against cops in general.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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I am still at the point of my initial post and stand by it. I would need to read all the warrant paper work and after action reports before I would even think about making a final decision.. This really don't pass the smell test on what is available. It also seems like the team went out of control, that is a hell of a lot of expended rounds for one man IMHO.
I really would like to know the whole story on this one. Until then I will reserve judgment. But I will state that I think the over militarization of the police in general and the freedom of no knock warrants is wrong. They should be reserved for the most serious of cases and require much verification prior to issue IMHO. This is my PERSONAL philosophy as I know there is no reason to bust my door and I will be thinking worst case scenario and in fear for the life of my wife and myself, I will react as I have trained. A dynamic entry to my home may mean my death, but not all the entry team will be going home afterwards, that is my line in the sand. I will not bow to the ABUSE of authority as I did not abuse my authority when I had it. Mr. Lee, thanks for sharing your wisdom on this subject. You got it exactly right, and you did it with class and dignity, two things that are often in short supply around here. Rick
I'm better when I move.
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Joined: Jun 2002
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,961 Likes: 54 |
Mr. Lee, thanks for sharing your wisdom on this subject. You got it exactly right, and you did it with class and dignity, two things that are often in short supply around here. Rick
Big Plus One. If only his type of cop were more the norm today. His Americanism is the real kind.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2001
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It has been a few years since I've been involved in negotiations to determine the woth of a dead pilot in a wrongful death lawsuit.In most states that is the jury's first duty.Then , they have to assign blame of all the involved parties and that's done on a percentage basis.The deceased almost always is assigned some portion of the blame. At 26 years of age , Jose had a lot of earning potential in front of him. The denial of access by medical personel may turn out to be a really big factor as you can almost always find some expert witness to testify that his wounds were survivable although with 60 holes in him , it's not likely. The pain and suffering he experienced in his final moments due to this denial WILL be a big factor in determining any award and this could be without regard to his presumed guilt. You could probably start at saying he is worth a minimum of a half million just because of the manner of his death . And that would be if they are sucessful in making him dirty. If there is room to create reasonable doubt as to his guilt in any crime , the INS Co. will write a check for the limit of their liability and walk off. The city or county will pay more on top of that . Like I said earlier ,I live in a county that paid out a million bucks because the Sherrif screwed a female prisoner. Bob will dispute everything I've said since I'm not a lawyer.But I used to HIRE lawyers for stuff like this . 
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2010
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Boring Police Story
I went to the local police station yesterday morning to get a permit to serve and sell liquour at a foodbank fundraiser for which I am the bartender. They took my 25.00 bucks and the application and said thank you, I said thank you back. No one shot me and I went to work afterwards.
Are you going to get a lawyer?
If 'ya can't put hot sauce on it, it ain't worth eat'n....
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,553 |
There is ALWAYS a wrongful death lawsuit and you ALWAYS pay. No amount of money can give a man his life back. You guys are true dangers to society with the attitudes your reveal in threads like this. Why? Because he's actually talking from experience on what happens in the real world?
"I Birn Quhil I Se" MacLeod of Lewis
I Burn While I See
Hold Fast MacLeod of Harris
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Posts: 24,239 |
Now Mac , It borders on cruelty to mention the real world to Hawkeye .It takes him awhile to get back in his "special place"
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,553 |
My apologies. Cyber kick to the nuts for that one.
"I Birn Quhil I Se" MacLeod of Lewis
I Burn While I See
Hold Fast MacLeod of Harris
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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[quote=crossfireoops]" How do we know that 71 rounds were fired?"
Would a Pima County Sheriff Department's press release do, dumbchit?
You'll just run that head and mouth at the drop of a [bleep]' hat,......guess you "pro" LEOs develop a sixth sense that dismisses the need for any backround work,....or READING a post before blowing gas.
Patehetic,.....you'll be demanding someone 'Show" you,...next.
That type of info. should of never been released to the public. It wasn't a need to know. The agency brought on some of their own issues with the press release. Your sure got a smart mouth for such a scrawny built person. I know for a fact little fella, you wouldn't say these things in person.
I know for a FACT that you WILL get a free complimentary "Abandoned Mine Shaft Tour" if you keep acting like you're the Law in Arizona..... ...and bring that attitude here. Inevitable,....and one's physical stature has NOTHING to do with that outcome,.....you poor pathetic and cowardly excrescence. You say , "remember i get paid to lie to people."I say,...we all know that now, so [bleep] off. But if you just have to,...pray,....continue,....belicose one. Quivering here,......just terrified and shaking in my mocs. GTC
Member, Clan of the Border Rats
-- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Your taking up for a man that had a warrant signed against him because they had enough PC that he was involved in dope running and home invasions. I'm not. I'm taking up for me and my neighbor and even you. These "dynamic entries" are the stuff we used to watch the Gestapo or KGB do at the movies as kids and be revolted by it. But that would never happen in America. We knew this was a free country. Well, it is happening here and it is not moral, legal, constitutional, and not American. Or we are not free and the tree of liberty needs a dose of watering. I'm amazed by the number of folks cheering the demise of our most precious freedoms such as being secure in our own homes with our families from our government. No doubt people who believe because they are part of the "system", it can never happen to them. Think again, suckers. The first steps down that slope are easy, until you realize it's getting slicker and steeper and there is no way back up. I fear we are nearly there.
We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?
Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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What about the precious freedoms and security of the innocent folks who's homes were invaded by the perps,if true? If the home invasions are a fact, I don't feel the marine could sincerely agree with your position,at all.
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.
William Arthur Ward
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261 |
I am still at the point of my initial post and stand by it. I would need to read all the warrant paper work and after action reports before I would even think about making a final decision.. This really don't pass the smell test on what is available. It also seems like the team went out of control, that is a hell of a lot of expended rounds for one man IMHO.
I really would like to know the whole story on this one. Until then I will reserve judgment. But I will state that I think the over militarization of the police in general and the freedom of no knock warrants is wrong. They should be reserved for the most serious of cases and require much verification prior to issue IMHO. This is my PERSONAL philosophy as I know there is no reason to bust my door and I will be thinking worst case scenario and in fear for the life of my wife and myself, I will react as I have trained. A dynamic entry to my home may mean my death, but not all the entry team will be going home afterwards, that is my line in the sand. I will not bow to the ABUSE of authority as I did not abuse my authority when I had it. I'm like you Terry, there is no reason for a dynamic entry on my home. I will assume a dynamic entry is a home invasion and will respond with force if possible.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2006
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I participate in these threads in order to further my knowledge of human nature. [ Some would argue that Bob - being a lawyer- should be excluded from any study of "human" nature , but he has feelin's too you know , so I invite his participation]Since the subject of my studies has not changed in recoded history , I never expect to learn anything really new.The results usually just re-inforce truths already known.
The fact that there is no resolution to the debate at hand is due to this :
Cops are examples of beauracratic excellence , though they don't see themselves that way.Like all government bureaucrats , ideas of "right" and "wrong" have been supplanted by "policy".
So any action taken,regardless of its' ramifications, is judged to be "approved" or "dis-approved" according to "policy".
It is frustrating to us when we can't convince them that something is just flat out WRONG on its' face.
The one thing that ANY government beauracrat hates above all else is an arrogant citizen.When we say something is flat out wrong even though it may be "policy", we are guilty of that arrogance.
It has never been established that cops are any more intelligent than the general population .[They couldn't be since THAT is where they come from]They also are not any smarter.
So the fact that a handful of them spend this much time defending the actions of individual cops whom they don't even know against an overwhelming number of non-cops who condemn the actions in question is not because of any intellectual divide.It is not because "we know stuff you don't know" which is the reason most often given.
They surrendered their right to judge right from wrong when they became cops. Just exactly like all other bureacrats . The more I think about this the more you are right. Police are government employees (bureaucrats) who serve the government they work for. Therefore, the police agree with the policy of their government. Fortunately, most policy that police have to follow of their respective governments in Montana is more liberal than other states and urban areas. We have less problems with police in general than other areas.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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What about the precious freedoms and security of the innocent folks who's homes were invaded by the perps,if true? If the home invasions are a fact, I don't feel the marine could sincerely agree with your position,at all. Maybe the search could have been executed by regular, uniformed police officers while the now deceased suspect was at work. Would have been pretty safe for the police and everybody's precious freedoms and security might have been preserved. On another point, I want to go on the record and say that the suspect got what he deserved if he knew he was pointing his rifle at police officers.
I'm better when I move.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 62,043 |
It was a simultaneous home search.You don't permit chances of disclosure to other suspects. SOP.
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.
William Arthur Ward
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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The more I think about this the more you are right.
==============
I think someone just shat his drawers. Strike that...trousers!
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.
William Arthur Ward
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Posts: 34,261 |
You smear every officer of a department and swat team and thats ok. Your taking up for a man that had a warrant signed against him because they had enough PC that he was involved in dope running and home invasions. I take the side of the cops anyday.
His death was his doing. No one elses. He knew what was going on and decided to do something stupid.
Him being a marine matters not one bit in this case. He might have been a great marine 5 years ago that does not mean he's not a turd today.
Awwwww you put me on ignore. Don't forget TRH wants to have a word with you.
Dink Having a warrant signed against you, especially a warrant that is a War on Drugs warrant, doesn't mean a thing. Only court can decide if you are guilty of a crime. I suppose to the police the War on Drugs grants the police the privilege to consider every citizen a druggie and therefore, the enemy.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 62,043 |
Fortunately, most policy that police have to follow of their respective governments in Montana is more liberal than other states and urban areas. We have less problems with police in general than other areas.
==================
Do you really live in Montana? Your state is in the news most often for it's SWAT operations.
That's about the 7th time you've asserted unsupportable statements as to Montana.
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.
William Arthur Ward
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