Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire SWAT kills Marine in his home

It only plays 16 seconds on my computer. Shows no action at all.

But thanks.

The bit about lights and sirens in front of the house was available through one of the early links posted here.

It was just not "seen".

It played for about a minute and 20 seconds for me.

So much for the "knocked and waited up to a minute".

:34 to :52... that's 18 seconds between first approach to door and blown door.

Not going to get back in this thread, but my issue with this still stands, it was not a valid 4th amendment search under the parameters set by SCOTUS in U.S. v. Banks.

HS

One things is painfully obvious...the wife's a damn liar. Looked out the window and had no idea it was LE and their lights weren't flashing,huh? A fake LE home invasion with about 5 fake police cars makes for a well planned home invasion,don't you think?

Then husband,after clearly knowing they were LE,raises the gun towards the police.

Damn....be grateful I don't charge for my gut instincts. I know some will think so but NO, I was not there!
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SWAT attorney said video speaks for itself
Posted: May 27, 2011 1:14 AM EDT
Updated: May 27, 2011 1:14 AM EDT
Reporter: Joel Waldman

TUCSON, Ariz. (KGUN9-TV) -They say a picture is worth a thousand words. SWAT video, however, might be priceless, according to the lawyer representing SWAT in the shooting death of marine Jose Guerena.

"In your opinion, is this now cut and dry once you see the video?" KGUN9 asked. "Yeah, you watch the video and clearly you hear sirens, you see them (SWAT) approach, you see them knock and announce several times. Clearly, anyone in the area will know police were there," explained SWAT lawyer Mike Storie.

For the first time, we saw what happened the morning of May 5th. Until now, we had just heard from both sides, including the Marine's wife, Vanessa Guerena. A few days after the shooting, KGUN9 asked her about SWAT announcing itself before entering, "At any point did you hear them yell, "police or SWAT?" asked KGUN9's Joel Waldman. "No no!" answered Guerena. "At any point did you hear sirens outside?" asked Waldman. "Oh no!" answered Guerena.

"You're saying they only yelled SWAT after the shootout?" Waldman continued. "Oh, yes, yes!" responded Guerena.

We sat down with lawyer Mike Storie to watch the video shot by SWAT. And, he pointed out something completely contrary to Guerena's wife's claims, "The person is now knocking on the door, and giving verbal commands as far as announcing in Spanish and in English who they are, you see him (SWAT officer) knocking," explained Storie.

"The breacher moves in; they move in, the shield and now we hear the shots," pointed out Storie.

And, lots of them, SWAT admits to firing 71 shots in just seven seconds. After the shooting, the Pima County Sheriff's Department Lieutenant Michael O'Connor explained that number of shots, "They're going to fire until the threat is over. (SWAT) fired in seven seconds."

And, Storie told us there was a threat; a gun pointed right at them. The deputy to the right of the shielder, Storie said, saw it first, "The person above his right shoulder will be the first one who is looking down the hallway who will see the gun turning the corner and being raised towards them."

We reached out to the Guerena's attorney, Christopher Scilepi, but he did not return KGUN9's phone call.

Banks said 15 seconds is cutting it close, but it did not establish a per se minimum. It also recognized numerous exceptions to the knock and announce rule, stating:



It also may be feasible to argue that the announcement began when the siren (accidentally?) was activated right outside the residence.

I can't tell from the video whether we are looking at the main entry team or a backup team at the back door.

I fall into the "not enough information" group because these cases hinge on a lot of nuances, and lawyer statements, press releases, and bits and pieces of information just don't cut it for me.

Your billing rate would have to be pretty high to multiply it by .5 seconds and make real money.

Communication is two ways. Turning on a siren and shouting outside of a man's house does not ensure the siren and shouts are heard.

Volumes have been written about the effects of stress on hearing, and more volumes on the combat mindset, which this Marine had.

(note that Marine is capitalized always, and is Soldier, Airman and Sailor.)

Illegal police entry = illegal death, no matter what the Marine was pointing at them, OMHO.

Banks answered that. The guy was in the shower. The court said it doesn't matter if he heard it or not.

Banks said 15 seconds is cutting it short for a 2 room apartment. Souter, who wrote the opinion, said more than a minute for a townhouse.... one has to assume similar for a house.


FWIW, that is the front door. Notice the driveway. I looked up the house and google view early on in this thread. The back door has a small wall around it. This was the front door and where the confrontation took place.

18 seconds does not a minute make...

LE Attorney has lied as much as the wife, if not more. You keep missing that if they didn't wait long enough to satisfy Banks or Wilson and it's found to be an illegal search, none of the stuff you're hanging your hat on matters.

Illegal search is what the family's attorney will be going after.

It's what I understand the moniker to be as well. Can't make a rational argument, call the other guy a kook.

As to me, DD, I used to call myself a conservative then a conservative Bohemian or a classical liberal. Now I usually, but not always, call myself just a Bohemian. I do this for a number of reasons. By nature, I'm an easy going person who doesn't give a rip about social convention. I also call myself this because the word conservative and liberal has been so mutilated from it's dictionary meaning. Most conservatives, even the ones on the Fire, are what's defined as a street-corner conservative. According to my dictionary, that's some-"one who calls him- or herself a conservative without understanding the term." Most conservatives are right-wing socialists (fascists?). Most liberals are left-wing socialists (communists?). Hence, I've given up the word conservative and the words classical liberal and just call myself a Bohemian, someone who supports liberty and freedom, an easy going person who doesn't give a rat's behind about social convention and is a philosopher, what many of you call a kook.

Your 18 seconds is nonsense nor does it have to be a specific, choreographed to the second knock and announcement dynamic. One looks at the totality of the circumstances. What we do know is the wife is a now confirmed liar. She clearly stated she saw the vehicles and there were no lights flashing nor was there any siren noise. Clearly exposed lies. She stated she looked out the window and saw the units,all 4-6 of them,all clearly marked,some being marked SUV vehicles and all with lights flashing and she was unable to ID them as LE. Her viewing the vehicles and the SWAT team in clearly marked LEO vehicles and LE wearing full LE regalia is simply one part and parcel of the announcement/presence requisite. Their home is the size of a 2 bedroom apt. and the nuance/crux certainly won't focus on the residence's sq footage. Further,Souter did not say, as a matter of law, it had to be more than a minute for a TH nor did he say when that time clock actually commenced.

When a prosecutor gets his grasp on the clear fact the wife, a crtical witness, can be easily exposed as a liar, confidence soars. When a Plaintiff's lawyer realizes his material witness is incredible and a confirmed liar, it's a crushing blow.

Just from what's been posted here about the Banks decision cast doubt on the notion that LE has to wait x-amount of seconds or minutes before making entry. If they hang their case on the time LE waited before entry they'll lose.

Yep; its based purely on being reasonable, which is pretty loose...

U.S. v. Banks.... it's all there Counselor

Souter said that time and the size of the home does matter, less mitigating circumstances.

2 of the 3 established mitigating circumstances, cannot be met in this case. You can't flush body armor or a rifle which is all they found and you have Storie claiming they "found what the search warrant called for". Thus no go on the mitigating circumstance in Banks.

No imminent danger to LEO's. Hell, they are lallygagging around and nonchalant right up to blowing the door. They don't even assume a defensive posture until the first shots are fired. So no go there.

Now, the one and only option to ignoring the time to answer door, is whether waiting would be "futile". That is the most ambiguous mitigating circumstance and of course, given the right judge, could win the day for the search.

See my post right above. Banks established you don't have to wait IF you can prove mitigating circumstances. But you have to prove them. The Banks decision rested on cocaine potentially being flushed. Can't flush weapons and body armor.

I'm glad you brought up the milling around. I thought it was just me. I saw nothing there, to me, that required a SWATT type search warrant.

The footnotes do discuss times and proximity as set forth in other cases. The relevance of that is that nuances matter.