Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting Determining a load's maximum range

This is a topic I have spent much time on over the last decade and obviously there is some controversy !!!!!
This is just my opinion and experience from what me and my nephew have done over the last decade.
My longest range rifle is a 338 Lapua Imp. with all the bell's and whistle's (at 56#), throated to shoot the 300gr SMK.
Both me and my nephew have shot game past 2100 yards with this rifle but have noticed that just past this distance when this bullet starts to go sub-sonic or trans-sonic (depending on elevation, humidity etc.) all accuracy is lost and spotting a shot is next to impossible.
Other's have a different view.......For example gunsmith Gordy Gridder's has almost an Identical rifle to mine shooting the same bullet at the same velocity that he claim's is accurate to 5 miles (more than 3 miles sub-sonic!!!!!).

Make a Long Range rifle and find out for yourself

You're getting a muzzle-velocity of 3300 fps using a .30 caliber 200 grain Gameking? How long is your barrel? Are you getting any pressure signs?

Gordy built the rifle I'm using. He does excellent work.

I'm in the Houston area.

The 338 Lapua Mag is a great long range rifle and as of 2009 it held the sniper long range record with two kills at 2,707 yards. Still, the director of the company that manufactured that rife said "It is still fairly accurate beyond 1,500 m (1,640 yd), but at that distance luck plays as much of a part as anything." I wonder what they would say about Gordy Gridder's claim that his 338 Lapua Mag is accurate to 5 miles (8800 yards)?

I guess it depends on what you mean by "accurate". Shooting a target at 8,800 yards is impressive, but range estimation must be tough; I mean, if you're off by a yard or two, the bullet will miss the house. Are laser rangefinders good enough for that?

Also, I'm pretty sure he would not be doing this offhand, so if he's shooting from a bench, I think the target would be over the horizon. I'm sure it would be if he's shooting prone. Then again, it could be a huge target, like the side of a mountain.

My unaltered quote is as follows:



In my next post where I corrected the bullet weight I also said "the MV might be beyond the 300 Win SM for a 200 grain bullet." Also note that I said "Just as an example", not something like "My 300 Win Short Mag..."

At 5 miles you would have to elevate the 338 Lapua Mag rifle like an artillery piece and have a forward observer to call in corrections. Not that you could hit anything the .338 bullet would have much of an effect on, but with no wind you might be able get a group size of 255 yards, which works out to a 1 MOA group at 8,800 yards. Some would call that accurate, just not practical.

I stand corrected...

Okay I'm gonna have to pull the bullschit card out and lay it down on that one...

Many years ago I did a job for a client (Fort Knox Safes), while sitting in their office waiting for them to cut me a check I noticed a magazine that I had never seen before..."The Varmint Hunter". I was fascinated and asked if I could buy it from them. they said take it, it is yours. I read it from cover to cover more than once and got addicted to the writing's of Ned Kalbfleish,Major L.Boddicker, Steve Hanson and Steve Timm (dogzapper on this forum).
My hobby since that time has been to shoot varmint's at longer and longer ranges, me and my nephew have spent a decade or more and ten's of thousand's of dollar's in that persuit getting into the Varmint Hunter's 500,1000,1500,2000 yard club's.
In 2005 I recieved the Varmint Hunter's" Long Shot of the Year" award for shooting a marmot (rockchuck) at 2144 yards, I thought this was quite an acomplishment.

until the 2006 LSOTY award came out...........It was total B.S. what was claimed was not possible and all credibility was flushed down the schitter.
Ned Kalbfleish was gone, Steve Hanson was gone and one of the best gun writer's ever Steve Timm was banished.
Then the Varmint Hunter was left with with self promoters like Gordy Gritters (good gunsmith, but lack's reality in his shooting ability). and total moron's like L.P.Brezny that think's he know's it all when he has trouble wiping his own azz.
I am not sure since I cancelled my subscription and threw all my old one's in the trash, but he made this claim sometime in 2006

After the Sandy Hook tests of 1879, a new variation of the .45-70 cartridge was produced, the .45-70-500, which fired a heavier 500 grain (32.5 g) bullet. The heavier 500-grain (32 g) bullet produced significantly superior ballistics, and could reach ranges of 3,350 yards (3,120 m), which were beyond the maximum range of the .45-70-405. While the effective range of the .45-70 on individual targets was limited to about 1,000 yards (915 m) with either load, the heavier bullet would produce lethal injuries at 3,500 yards (3,200 m). At those ranges, the bullets struck point-first at roughly a 30 degree angle, penetrating 3 one inch (2.5 cm) thick oak boards, and then traveling to a depth of 8 inches (20 cm) into the sand of the Sandy Hook beach*. It was hoped the longer range of the .45-70-500 would allow effective volleyed fire at ranges beyond those normally expected of infantry fire.

I think a lot of the difference in range between the loads from an accuracy standpoint is the intended use on "individual targets" as compared to "effective volleyed fire." Given the same shape, the heavier projectile would have a higher ballistic coefficient, but a lower muzzle velocity. I expect both loads would have similar accuracy, but with the heavier projectile having more penetrating power at 3,350 yards.

There's a difference between 'maximum range', and 'maximum effective range'.

And then 'effective' can be a lot of different things, depending on the intended purpose.

Effective range for harrasing fire on a troop staging area with volley fire, is a lot different than effective range on prairie dogs.

I think volleyed fire means a bunch of troops firing at the enemy. Given the ballistics of the .45-70-500 the elevation required to even hit the ground at 3,350 yards would be measured in degrees rather than MOA and likely beyond the adjustment of the iron sights on guns of the time. Aimed by vertical Kentucky windage, effective must mean the power to do real damage on the chance a particular bullet finds a target.

Well, I suppose my point was that often times the cartridge we choose may be far more capable than we would intially give it credit for. By citing that article I would have never dreamed that a 45-70 could even be considered fit for duty even much beyond 700 yards or so, let alone 3500. So I expect the intent of the long range shooting would actually be the goal.

My intent was not to showcase the 45-70 for this thread.

Gordy built my present long range rig, and I believe his gunsmithing abilities are second to none. I talk with Gordy fairly frequently. What precisely was it he claimed that the BS card is being thrown on, and when exactly did he claim it? Finally, who heard Gordy make the claim as described in this thread? The VH staff? A poster on this forum?

I plan on asking him, and hopefully clearing this up for myself. I find it difficult to believe Gordy would make such an outlandish claim as recounted on this thread, but I'll find out for myself. Gordy has always been straight with me, and I would expect he would continue to be so.

I'm sorry. LOL.

My brother and sister both live off of Jones Road in NW Houston. We all were born in Baytown and grew up in LaPorte. All three of us went to Texas A&M. I ended up going to work for the Brazos County Sheriff's Department in 1983 and worked there until 1999. My wife got her PhD from Texas A&M and was offered an Assistant Professor position (skipping the 2-year post doctoral period) at Southern Illinois University. I despise Illinausea more with each passing day. We now hold the distinction of being the ONLY state in the Union that does not offer some form of concealed carry. I think that's special; like short-bus special.

What was claimed? How was it determined the shot wasn't possible? Who claimed to have made the LSOTY of 2006?

You MOVED to Illinois. From Texas? Did you lose a bet?