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StrayDog. I presume you are eliminating any user-induced flyer. I also presume that whichever rifle you are shooting at that time is able to produce a good 5-shot group, so the barrel heating up is not an issue. Or is it? I say that because your next sentence leads me to think the barrel heat is the issue; "put several together then one way out."
I usually shoot 3-shot groups with regular hunting rifles. I shoot 5 shot strings with heavy barreled rifles. I shoot 20+ round strings with my match rifles.
I find barrel heat can be quite detrimental to group sizes, but 4 MOA in a 5-shot group is more than I would expect.
Sorry I can't be of better help.
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Time for a physics lesson. There are several functions that affect flyers. The "Big Five" are as follows: 1. Rotation of the earth 2. wind speed 3. wind direction 4. Barrel twist 5. Northern or Southern Hemispheric contra-polation aka Transpositional Mass Acceleration Rotation of the earthAs you can see from this picture, the earth rotates counter-clockwise around its vertical axis. Flyers are more likely caused by shooting at right angles to the rotation - due north or south. Flyers are least affected by shooting from west to east or east to west. Wind Speed & DirectionWind can act in concert with or act resistively to the earth's rotation. In a nutshell, flyers are more likely caused by shooting at right angles to the wind. Flyers are least affected by shooting directly into or in the same direction as the wind. Please note that when the wind is blowing, you must take into consideration its direction and the direction of the shot. Wind can exacerbate the flyer or, contrarily, minimize the rotational effect. It all depends on how your range is built and/or, if hunting, where the game is standing. It's a demanding science. Barrel TwistIs your twist a left or right hand one? A left handed twist with a left blowing wind will cause huge flyers. A left handed twist with a right blowing wind will reduce the flyers. A right handed twist with a right blowing wind shooting at right angles to the earth rotation will allow you to shoot around corners! Thank you Julius Sumner Miller! Northern/Southern Hemispheric Contra-polation Hunters that live in the Northern Hemisphere will find that, should they travel south - to Oz for example - they will have difficulties connecting with their targets. Transpositional Mass Acceleration or TMA, is the result of objects used to spinning in one manner or direction, being forced to spin in contrary juxtaposition. We experience this when we speak to Australians. Their version of English is different. Known to linguists as the Coriolis Communication or Contra-Chat for short, it influences similar languages by forcing diphthongs in opposite directions. Vocoid pharyngealization is the result. In conclusion, next time you see a science teacher, give him a hug...or punch him. They are to blame for the "half-full" versus "half empty" arguments that have torn up the physics community since 1829. Now you know.
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
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4MOA?!!! That sounds like Parkinsons syndrome Or too much caffeine. If you're saying it never has happened to you, I don't believe it. I have at least one flyer in all of my groups. Seriously. I only measure the best 4 out of 5, or the best 8 out of 10. I give myself a half-MOA handicap. Thats what the dime is for...
The collection of taxes which are not absolutely required, which do not beyond reasonable doubt contribute to public welfare, is only a species of legalized larceny. Under this Republic the rewards of industry belong to those who earn them. Coolidge
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Time for a physics lesson. There are several functions that affect flyers. The "Big Five" are as follows: 1. Rotation of the earth 2. wind speed 3. wind direction 4. Barrel twist 5. Northern or Southern Hemispheric contra-polation aka Transpositional Mass Acceleration Rotation of the earthAs you can see from this picture, the earth rotates counter-clockwise around its vertical axis. Flyers are more likely caused by shooting at right angles to the rotation - due north or south. Flyers are least affected by shooting from west to east or east to west. Wind Speed & DirectionWind can act in concert with or act resistively to the earth's rotation. In a nutshell, flyers are more likely caused by shooting at right angles to the wind. Flyers are least affected by shooting directly into or in the same direction as the wind. Please note that when the wind is blowing, you must take into consideration its direction and the direction of the shot. Wind can exacerbate the flyer or, contrarily, minimize the rotational effect. It all depends on how your range is built and/or, if hunting, where the game is standing. It's a demanding science. Barrel TwistIs your twist a left or right hand one? A left handed twist with a left blowing wind will cause huge flyers. A left handed twist with a right blowing wind will reduce the flyers. A right handed twist with a right blowing wind shooting at right angles to the earth rotation will allow you to shoot around corners! Thank you Julius Sumner Miller! Northern/Southern Hemispheric Contra-polation Hunters that live in the Northern Hemisphere will find that, should they travel south - to Oz for example - they will have difficulties connecting with their targets. Transpositional Mass Acceleration or TMA, is the result of objects used to spinning in one manner or direction, being forced to spin in contrary juxtaposition. We experience this when we speak to Australians. Their version of English is different. Known to linguists as the Coriolis Communication or Contra-Chat for short, it influences similar languages by forcing diphthongs in opposite directions. Vocoid pharyngealization is the result. In conclusion, next time you see a science teacher, give him a hug...or punch him. They are to blame for the "half-full" versus "half empty" arguments that have torn up the physics community since 1829. Now you know. I didn't read this post, as I thought it would jinx my shooting and I'd end up with 4 moa flyers all over the place. They say "ignorance is bliss"
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Campfire 'Bwana
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[quote=noKnees Thats what the dime is for... [/quote] Pstt... hey don't be givin away our secrets
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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I'm talking about when load testing bolt action rifles. I usually shoot 5 shot groups at 200 yards, if all is well 5 shots @ 300 yards. Usually load testing an un-tried load will produce a random pattern of various sizes. But then you can get a load that will put several close together then one way out, that's what I'm talking about. Just wondering, are the flyers more left or right or are they more high or low?
“No one in hell can ever say I went to Christ and He rejected me.
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Hey did you shoot at the California State High power match about '68 or so as a junior? I remember a kid that out grew his '03 shortened stock and was getting hammered in the nose (blood flowing) every time he fired. I shall never forget his Dad saying, "Hang in there son you have a good score going... we'll get you a new stock before next match". That short stock can cause a flyer.
Last edited by lingoch; 07/28/11.
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Time for a physics lesson. There are several functions that affect flyers. The "Big Five" are as follows: 1. Rotation of the earth 2. wind speed 3. wind direction 4. Barrel twist 5. Northern or Southern Hemispheric contra-polation aka Transpositional Mass Acceleration Rotation of the earthAs you can see from this picture, the earth rotates counter-clockwise around its vertical axis. Flyers are more likely caused by shooting at right angles to the rotation - due north or south. Flyers are least affected by shooting from west to east or east to west. Wind Speed & DirectionWind can act in concert with or act resistively to the earth's rotation. In a nutshell, flyers are more likely caused by shooting at right angles to the wind. Flyers are least affected by shooting directly into or in the same direction as the wind. Please note that when the wind is blowing, you must take into consideration its direction and the direction of the shot. Wind can exacerbate the flyer or, contrarily, minimize the rotational effect. It all depends on how your range is built and/or, if hunting, where the game is standing. It's a demanding science. Barrel TwistIs your twist a left or right hand one? A left handed twist with a left blowing wind will cause huge flyers. A left handed twist with a right blowing wind will reduce the flyers. A right handed twist with a right blowing wind shooting at right angles to the earth rotation will allow you to shoot around corners! Thank you Julius Sumner Miller! Northern/Southern Hemispheric Contra-polation Hunters that live in the Northern Hemisphere will find that, should they travel south - to Oz for example - they will have difficulties connecting with their targets. Transpositional Mass Acceleration or TMA, is the result of objects used to spinning in one manner or direction, being forced to spin in contrary juxtaposition. We experience this when we speak to Australians. Their version of English is different. Known to linguists as the Coriolis Communication or Contra-Chat for short, it influences similar languages by forcing diphthongs in opposite directions. Vocoid pharyngealization is the result. In conclusion, next time you see a science teacher, give him a hug...or punch him. They are to blame for the "half-full" versus "half empty" arguments that have torn up the physics community since 1829. Now you know. Not gonna doubt any of this but I have to ask...IF this is the reason, then why wouldn't/ doesn't it apply to Every shot ? None of these (except the wind possibly) changes at ANY time.
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steve I rely on all 5 points plus caffine jerks and heavy heart beats wind shifts and stray bumble bees to improve my group size. You have to go with the flow and beeee the bullet...
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Shooter error. The most common accuracy problem.
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Stray Dog - There are a no. of UNKNOWN variables that can cause what we call flyers. VARIATIONS: 1 slight bullet abnormalities. 2 brass inconsistency 3 primer " 4 slight misalignment of cartridge in chamber to mention a few and NOT blame the shooter
jwall- *** 3100 guy***
A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap
Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
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Almost all of my fliers are the result of the nut behind the stock-me.
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steve I rely on all 5 points plus caffine jerks and heavy heart beats wind shifts and stray bumble bees to improve my group size. You have to go with the flow and beeee the bullet... You've let the cat out of the bag now! Successful competitive shooters and skilled hunters have known about the bee method for years. One of the McMillan clan discovered this by accident I think, but I'm not sure. Bee venom and fear influence shot placement. The thing is, most people think that being stung adversely affects performance. Oh no! Several strategically placed stingers will tune you up. That, and the narcotic affect of Afterbite. Just don't mention exactly how it works or everyone will be shooting naked and installing apiaries at their ranges.
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
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......or some runout in the bullet seating could reasonably be a cause...... If you will isolate the piece of brass fired when the flier appears and then check that piece for concentric neck thickness you will likely find the neck to be thicker on one side. I also push each piece of brass to the extreme rear of the shell holder slot before it goes up into the die. I think, if you don't, and you are using run of the mill dies, it could enter the die at a different angle than the rest. Most brass will center itself during the resizing process but not every time.
"I never thought I'd live to see the day that a U.S. president would raise an army to invade his own country." Robert E. Lee
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I believe that most of my outliers come from different placement of the rifle on the front rest from shot to shot or the amount of "squeeze" I apply to the stock.
Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.
Happily Trapped In the Past (Thanks, Joe)
Not only a less than minimally educated person, but stupid and out of touch as well.
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Gentlemen, what is traditionally considered a flyer, that is, a hole that is noticeably separate from the rest of the group, isn't important. It is only important when the rifle is used in competition or there is a spread of two inches or more with the same load. Even then, my first instinct would be to watch the shooter.
Rifles and loads are what they are. Shooters are the biggest variable.
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
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You can also have a gravitational anomaly occur during a shooting string.
These are caused by electronic radio wave interference (ERI) with the earth's gravitational field.
JM I thought thats what foil hats were for..... Now, be nice to JM. He was at the front of the line when they started creating anomalies....
If you're fixin' to put a hole in something, make it a hole to remember.
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What distance are we talking about here? How many shots in a string? For example, are we talking a 10 shot group and #10 goes astray? Was the barrel warm? Hot? Cold?
Your question is extremely general and thus difficult to answer.
I'm talking about when load testing bolt action rifles. I usually shoot 5 shot groups at 200 yards, if all is well 5 shots @ 300 yards. Usually load testing an un-tried load will produce a random pattern of various sizes. But then you can get a load that will put several close together then one way out, that's what I'm talking about. So lets take that load that you are happy enough to take the paper out to 300 yards,,,,, what size group are the other 4 bullets in? My point is, are we considering a 1/4 minute angle group, or a 1 minute group..... with said flier making it a 4" group? If you are comfortable shooting off the bench, get good ( say 1/2 minute) groups, you should be able to "call" said shot that isn't in the group, or you need better reloading habits, IMHO. For the ammo ( powder charge or bullet runout) for 1 of 5 to be poor compared to the other is a stretch in my book, more likely poor bench or trigger tecnique.... in my opinion. Allen
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All true Steve. But whatever the cause and no matter how irrelevant from a practical point of view fliers are damned aggravating. Call it loony-ness.
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
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