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That video was an initital take by Rumsfeld during the early to mid stages of the Iraq war and what he was addressing was that often-times operational requirements outweigh fiscal accuracy and I agree with that. Can it be cut? Oh you bet and I've written about that extensively and I'm too lazy to do it again.


A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Procurement issues have been an ongoing problem for many moons.Typical example:When I arrived in SEA the first thing that struck me was.. over here on the tarmac we had multitudes of broken airplanes sitting awaiting parts,a shortage of 7.62 ammo but over here stateside beer piled up two stories high and exploding under tarps.C-130's and 141's coming in day after day with beer,but parts/ammo?? Nada!! Our maintenance people pulling their hair out to keep everyone as operationally ready as they could but by God we had beer and plenty of it!! We always said if the VC would ever overrun us we'd just lay down our weapons and hand out the beer!!! whistle


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tbear Offline OP
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This is typical with what I have seen in the DC area for 40 years. There are certain projects that are minority set-asides & only certified minority firms can bid. A few perform well, but most do poor work, cut corners, etc. Again, they get away with this because they are a minority. In DC everything for their government is bid as an 8A minority. Many minority firms have gotten rich from this system. Its standard practice for non-minority firms to give a kick back to a minority firm so they can bid DC work. I'm an engineer with 50 years experience in the high voltage field & specifications being issued on electrical products has never been worse. Transformers incorrectly specified & the project I referenced had 15KV switchgear. The Navy specified vault mounted switches, then pad mounted gas switches, & finally pad mounted fusible switches. The drawings indicated the correct product - switchgear. The design engineer constantly disapproved our submittals because they did not meet the specification which was incorrect. Letters that were written were ignored. Then panic set in when the switchgear was needed & 100% overtime was paid. The manufacturer lost money because of all the engineering work in preparing resubmittals & having to reorganize production. We could reduce the construction & weapon purchase budget by 50% & not lose anything if efficiency could be obtained. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening. Every where we turn as tax payers there is inefficiency & waste in government, including the military, & both Democrats & Republicans continue down the same old road.


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Quote
Our maintenance people pulling their hair out to keep everyone as operationally ready as they could but by God we had beer and plenty of it!!


Well, we never ran out of beer where I was but toward the end of the month we were down to Falstaff and Carling Black label. Funny how at the first of the month Budweiser and the other good beers showed up. Right on time every month. miles


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Originally Posted by tbear
You must be an idiot. I'm a small businessman & have no ability to change anything that the Navy or government does or doesn't do. No, I lost my a$$ on this order with all the changes, resubmittals, engineering time, calls to manufacturers, & on & on. My point is that this happens time & time again & no one in the military is accountable..
Change that to: "no one in the government is accountable - and you got your answer..

If it has to do with gov't - it's full of pork, waste and inefficiency, period..


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Originally Posted by milespatton
Quote
Our maintenance people pulling their hair out to keep everyone as operationally ready as they could but by God we had beer and plenty of it!!


Well, we never ran out of beer where I was but toward the end of the month we were down to Falstaff and Carling Black label. Funny how at the first of the month Budweiser and the other good beers showed up. Right on time every month. miles


From what I've been told Budweiser requires cash payment on every delivery to every vendor. Those others probably sold on credit...





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Received a design & build project issued by the Navy late yesterday that included a 15000 volt "Gas Impregnated Switch". I want to see a Navy engineer impregnate this switch. Definition of impregnate - imbue or permeate, to cause to conceive, make full, infuse, or best of all in a metaphorical sense to fill a container. Everyone in our local electrical industry is laughing their a$$ off at the Navy (again). They couldn't simply state "utilize SF6 gas bottles" like the utility industry. Just more psychobabble.


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Originally Posted by jorgeI
Pick on the uniforms with "great sources" like U tube and CBS news. Bottom line is uniformed officers have very little to say about spending. They set requirements and assess then it's in the hands of the politicans. I've written ad-nauseam here about procurement and how the Congress and mostly the civilian leadership drive that train. Make it worse today where the leadership both uniformed and civilial try to run an organization that is essentially wasteful by nature like a business, pad the budget with non-military expenditures and add contractors replacing jobs formerly done by uniformed personnel and you have the waste.


Jorge - you are right on with this post. I do want to note that in many programs, developmental and production costs are either, underestimated, not known, or just plain lied about until we learn publically that the program is way over-budget, is late and lacks the required performance.
The F-35 (a case in point, especially the B version) is at the $335 billion level, is late and, the exhibits low performance. Now we either pony up more $$$, or cancel the program (and waste the "invested" funding).
The Army's cancelled Crusader artillery piece is another. The current mechanized artillery system is the upgraded Paladin M109-A system. Ironically, after cancelling the Paladin, the Army incorporated many of the advanced into the now cancelled XM1203 Non-Line-of-sight artillery system, also cancelled due to increasing costs.
We do need to get a handle on realistic costs and performance before embarking on expensive full-scale developmental programs.

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Originally Posted by djs
There are a lot of defense contracts that are known wastes of money; performance and budget are poor. Lower level military officers (AF/Army Colonels & Navy Captains who actually run the programs admit it. I have recommended cancelling several (only the Contracting Officer can legally cancel a contract) and feel that my recommendations have saved money; but then, it gets wasted elsewhere. These were in the order of about $100-125 million each, not big, but significant just the same.

The higher level officers are more career conscious than the lower level officers and rarely admit that it is time to pull the plug.

The problem is that each new project or technology appears to offer great benefits at first and then following contract award, the successful bidder starts finding issues that they told the Technical Evaluation panel were negligible or presented no major hurdle. Recall that in 1990 Defense Secretary Richard Cheney ordered the A-12 aircraft cancelled; years of litigation followed.

It is just a system of greedy contractors milking the system



Coming from someone who is milking the system for all he can, as fast as he can.




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djs Offline
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Originally Posted by tbear
This is typical with what I have seen in the DC area for 40 years. There are certain projects that are minority set-asides & only certified minority firms can bid. A few perform well, but most do poor work, cut corners, etc. Again, they get away with this because they are a minority. In DC everything for their government is bid as an 8A minority. Many minority firms have gotten rich from this system. Its standard practice for non-minority firms to give a kick back to a minority firm so they can bid DC work. I'm an engineer with 50 years experience in the high voltage field & specifications being issued on electrical products has never been worse. Transformers incorrectly specified & the project I referenced had 15KV switchgear. The Navy specified vault mounted switches, then pad mounted gas switches, & finally pad mounted fusible switches. The drawings indicated the correct product - switchgear. The design engineer constantly disapproved our submittals because they did not meet the specification which was incorrect. Letters that were written were ignored. Then panic set in when the switchgear was needed & 100% overtime was paid. The manufacturer lost money because of all the engineering work in preparing resubmittals & having to reorganize production. We could reduce the construction & weapon purchase budget by 50% & not lose anything if efficiency could be obtained. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening. Every where we turn as tax payers there is inefficiency & waste in government, including the military, & both Democrats & Republicans continue down the same old road.


+1 here. I have always opposed any form of set-asides (minority, small business, etc.). I want the best product at the lowest cost.

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Campfire 'Bwana
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Defense spending should be easy. Assess the threat, let those in the know put out the requirements to build a counter, compete the candidates, select a winner with REAL TIME capabilites, contract for the units required, pay a portion up front and the rest upn delivery. Congress should write the check and nothing else.


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djs Offline
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Originally Posted by VAnimrod
Originally Posted by djs
There are a lot of defense contracts that are known wastes of money; performance and budget are poor. Lower level military officers (AF/Army Colonels & Navy Captains who actually run the programs admit it. I have recommended cancelling several (only the Contracting Officer can legally cancel a contract) and feel that my recommendations have saved money; but then, it gets wasted elsewhere. These were in the order of about $100-125 million each, not big, but significant just the same.

The higher level officers are more career conscious than the lower level officers and rarely admit that it is time to pull the plug.

The problem is that each new project or technology appears to offer great benefits at first and then following contract award, the successful bidder starts finding issues that they told the Technical Evaluation panel were negligible or presented no major hurdle. Recall that in 1990 Defense Secretary Richard Cheney ordered the A-12 aircraft cancelled; years of litigation followed.

It is just a system of greedy contractors milking the system



Coming from someone who is milking the system for all he can, as fast as he can.


I have saved the government more than your entire lifetime tax payments will be, just by closing one $125 million project.

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djs Offline
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Originally Posted by jorgeI
Defense spending should be easy. Assess the threat, let those in the know put out the requirements to build a counter, compete the candidates, select a winner with REAL TIME capabilites, contract for the units required, pay a portion up front and the rest upn delivery. Congress should write the check and nothing else.


Yes, in an ideal world. How big a check to write might depend on whose district the project falls or how many add-ons will be allowed.

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Originally Posted by djs
Originally Posted by VAnimrod
Originally Posted by djs
There are a lot of defense contracts that are known wastes of money; performance and budget are poor. Lower level military officers (AF/Army Colonels & Navy Captains who actually run the programs admit it. I have recommended cancelling several (only the Contracting Officer can legally cancel a contract) and feel that my recommendations have saved money; but then, it gets wasted elsewhere. These were in the order of about $100-125 million each, not big, but significant just the same.

The higher level officers are more career conscious than the lower level officers and rarely admit that it is time to pull the plug.

The problem is that each new project or technology appears to offer great benefits at first and then following contract award, the successful bidder starts finding issues that they told the Technical Evaluation panel were negligible or presented no major hurdle. Recall that in 1990 Defense Secretary Richard Cheney ordered the A-12 aircraft cancelled; years of litigation followed.

It is just a system of greedy contractors milking the system



Coming from someone who is milking the system for all he can, as fast as he can.


I have saved the government more than your entire lifetime tax payments will be, just by closing one $125 million project.


Yeah..... okay.

BTW - it isn't the gov't's money; it's the money the gov't extorted from the citizens, and that money was never refunded.

Thus, you only allowed .gov to move it from one project to another, and saved no one anything.




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djs Offline
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Nothing personal Sean, just a question. Do you bring as much negativity into your life, employment and family as you do here - or is it just me?

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My employment, family, and life is pretty damned good, thank you.

No thanks to .gov, lie-berals, and either side of Team Fed.




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djs Offline
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That bad, huhh - on all counts?

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