Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Mule Deer- 308 load w/ Varget

Read this:

http://www.zediker.com/downloads/m14.html

Wow, that is quite a resource. I shot a limit of grouse this morning, and get this article in the afternoon. It's a good day for this guy.

Mule Deer I been thinking that maybe one of those in 270 would be just what I need in my old age. Fixed German 4x on it yea just what I need.!

I've been shooting a .308 load with Varget that's been working perfectly, with no excessive pressure signs, but now I'm wondering if it could be on the warm side, after hearing some of the loads quoted in this thread. I worked up to it carefully in 1/2 gr increments with no problems at all. 150gr Hornady SST's, Rem 9 1/2 primer, new Federal brass (but about 30 years old, that I bought a LOT of from a store going out of business), and 47.5gr of Varget. BUT, I seat them out to 2.816" COAL, which is about 0.020" off the lands in the 22" barrel of my Win 70 classic stainless featherweight. It shoots right at 2900 fps, or a fuzz below, and gives groups around 7/8" for three shots.

But, I really don't like the SST's all that much at that velocity. They're too soft at closer ranges and don't penetrate the way I want them to. However, loaded down to around 2600 fps with around 43 to 43.5grs of Varget out of the 20" barrel of my old Browning BLR, they do MUCH better.

Well, your load does exceed the maximum load for 150gr at the Hodgdon website, which is 47.0 gr. So that's a first issue.

So what are these pressure signs that you speak of? And why do you trust them?

It also sounds like you have selected the wrong bullet for your application.

46.5 grains of VARGET, with either Fed 210M or CCI Benchrest primers, Winchester or Nosler brass with 150 grain PH's or 150 grain Hornady Spire Points shoot very well in my rifle. I took that load from an article by Mule Deer in Handloader he published several years ago.

At your convenience, please weigh a new one or a deprimed fired one. It will be interesting to compare with the heavy brass of more recent manufacture.

Fraser

The only advice I would give on reloading your M1A is to use CCI 34 primers. The are specifically made for the M1A and M1 Garand. I use them in my M1 Garand with no problem.

358win

Even when single loading an M1A, let the bolt strip the round from a magazine. Don't chamber the round and let the bolt fly home.

I load 46 grains of Varget under a 165 grain NBT in RP brass with a CCI 200 primer, seated about .020 off the lands in my Ruger #1B. It's very accurate, brass extracts easily, primers aren't flat, kills deer very well.

I loaded that component combination to 2.8" overall for years for a friend's 308 Kimber. Same results too.

Pretty good and enjoyable article. Here's a good quote:

"...Probably the slam-firingingest weapon
there is is a Garand chambered in .308 W.
Here now is a huge bolt running down
behind a helpless and cringing shorter case..."

You can't use any load you like...

A bolt action rifle can easily digest ammo loaded hotter than the gas system of the M1-A will tolerate.

Generally speaking, powders no slower than the 4895-4064 burning range with bullets no heavier than 180gr loaded to pressures equivalent to military ball ammo is the correct ammunition for the M1-A.

That pressure range is at least 10% below the max loads that bolt action rifles can consistently handle.

TC

Yesterday evening I was shooting a load comprised of 150's and Varget. I think I pulled it from an article JB had listed in a mag a couple of years ago under the title "The .308 is Great". It is either 46 or 46.5...and it stacks the 150's in multiple rifles!

First, I developed that load in 2007. At the time, I had no published data for the 150gr SST and Varget, so I took the data I had on hand from Hodgdon and Nosler, started at a safe level and worked up from there. Got to where I was getting good velocity and accuracy I wanted and stopped there, one grain short of the max shown in the Nosler manual, and no pressure signs. So I wouldn't say that's a "first issue".

Second, if you want to learn about pressure signs, how to interpret them, and why you should trust them, you can find that info in the front of most, if not all, reloading manuals from the major bullet manufacturers.

When I started reloading in 1966, 45 years ago now, I studied them long and extensively in the Speer and Lyman manuals of the day. As I've purchased additional manuals over the years, I always look through that section again, to see if there's something new to learn. It might do you good to do the same.

Third, at this moment, on my shelf in my loading room, there are boxes containing at least 12 different .308 caliber big game suitable bullets of various brands, styles, and weights. I use many different bullets for several different things, including big game hunting. If you don't experiment, you never find out what works for your particular applications.

I was an R&D and Test Engineer for NASA and the US Army Missile Command for quite a few years and I used to have a sign on my desk that said "One test is worth a thousand expert opinions."

mathman: You got my curiosity going also. I weighed 10 virgin, but old stock, Federal cases and they averaged 163.26gr. I weighed some once fired, deprimed, tumbled Winchester cases and they averaged 163.43gr. So the FC averaged 0.17gr lighter than the Win cases.

Four of the FC cases weighed 163.4gr,. three weighed 163.5gr., one weighed 163.8gr., one weighed 162.1gr., and one weighed 161.6gr.

You've confirmed my belief that older FC cases are lighter than the ones that have been around for a while now. Current stuff is something like 178 grains.

What vintage are your WW cases? Every one I've weighed for years has been in the 155 to 158 grain neighborhood.

I have no idea. They could be thirty years old also. I'm still loading a bunch of Norma, Sako, Browning and FC brass that I picked up back in the late 70's. I don't have much Win brass in .308, but it hasn't been loaded enough to need trimming yet.

Point 1: I always follow the powder manufacturer's load data. They know their product better than anyone else especially if there are changes or variations in their product. More often than not, the bullet manufacturers' loading data will be too conservative and you may leave potential performance on the table. Bottom line is if you exceed the max load from Hodgdon, you're looking for trouble.

Point 2: We can have a long discussion on pressure signs and how to interpret them. From "flattened" primers, to difficult bolt lift, case head expansion, ejector marks, case head swipe, etc none of them are worth much without a chronograph. If you encounter the above signs, they usually mean you are already over max and in danger territory. I maintain that developing loads until you see some or all of these signs is not a good thing. The only real way to measure pressure is with a setup that most people do not have at the house. It is much better to verify your loads by chronographing them and comparing to expected velocities from manuels, wherever you get them. I have yet to see somebody with a magical rifle that can launch bullets faster than expected data "without any pressure signs," and still have a safe load.

Point 3: I'm all for experimentation, especially if you have unlimited time and unlimited budget and you do not know what the "best" is. For most people however, one must not let perfection be the enemy of good enough. My comment about having the wrong bullet for your application was in response to your comment:

My .308 is a Kimber Classic with Broughton 5C barrel, glassed and free floated. I shot a number of combo's, including Varget. My best load was with 150 gr. NBT's and 45 gr. H4895. Varget was the best choice with the Barnes 130 TSX.

DF

Edit to correct "Barnes" 130 TSX. For some reason, I had written Berger.