Home Forums Lever Action Central Marlin 336 Lever Actions 356 back from JES

Got my 356 Win back from JES last week. It started out in life as a 30-30 but is now grown up!!



Eventually I will add a Holosight or laser sight. This will reside behide my front door and will go out with my wife or I when we take the dogs out and night. I'm hoping a 280gr hard cast at 1700 fps will slow a bear down enough for the dogs and I to get inside!

He did one for me back when the price was ~$150...came out very well. The neck was about 0.040" longer so I could seat out. I also did some work on the carrier and can load to 2.65" COAL for some bullets.

The 220 Speer FP was the most accurate in mine. 250 gr Beartooths did 3-4"...OK for hunting accuracy to 150 yds.

Haven't seen too many 35 cal bullet over 250 but I know Woodleigh has a 310gr, Swift have 280 and Kodiak a 275gr jacketed, Semi pointed and there are molds available up in that weight catagory. Mountain Molds probably could make you one with a nice large truncated cone nose.

You can file off the nose on RN's to about 0.300" diameter and use them...the primer diameter is ~0.210" for LR's. I've done this many times over the years with complete safety and success.

I added two more barrels to my Marlin...a 444M and a 458 American for the heavy bullets

Luck with your new toy...I like mine.

I have about 300 280gr GC cast bullets and about 150 285gr cast bullets. I didn't specify a twist, but told him my intentions and sent 2 dummies of each bullet along.
If I ever have to use this to save my life I hope the twist rate will stabilize them to 25 yds.
Once I get a factory crimp die I will load some up and see how they do at 50 & 100yds.

Nice looking rig...are you going to "Big Loop Lever" it? I keep thinking about it, but would need two levers to handle the 3 different barrel/cases...a standard 30-30 and a 450 M.

Having a lot of bullets in a couple of weights is ALWAYS a great excuse to build/modify a rifle. ...and you can cut down the length if they don't quite work...making a nice big wadcutter so to speak. I'm guessing Jes would have cut the twist to handle the bullet length...a "standard" 1-12(358 W) to 1-16(35 Rem and 35 Whelen) 35 cal twist will work OK for the most part.

Optimum twist for a 35 cal, 1.5" long bullet at 1700fs is roughly 1-13...your bullets are probably about 1.35" - 1.4" or near that. Post how long your bullets are and I will run them through my twist calculator or you can do it as there are several online twist calculators available. It is the bullet LENGTH and expected velocity that determines the best twist rate.

You could load both those bullets up to 2000fs and still be well within the Marlin safe pressure zone. H4895 seems to be a very good powder for the 356 W case and heavy bullets. I use it, RL-15, Varget, BLC-2 and AA2495 in my rig, with Varget and H4895 getting the nod for accuracy and BLC-2 and AA2495 having the highest velo and lower pressures. I've used both 356 W and 358 W cases interchangeable, mixed in the mag tube and had no problems with cycling or ejecting them. I also tried about half dozen other rimmed, semi-rimmed and rimless cases and they all worked without a hitch.

I don't load to SAAMI specs of 52KCUP for both the 356 and 358 Win, prefering to keep the pressure running 48-50 KCUP which still gives plenty of velocity and better accuracy with the 220 Speer FP.

Personnally tho'...I carry my 12 ga 3.5" Mossy pump with handloaded slugs and 00 buck when I go walking at night...I live in the boonies of Oregon and have black bear and cougar come visit now and then...but my dog goes along which keeps any inquisitive 4 legged critter a long ways away...2 legged ones are my main concern as there are some real crazies living scattered around the area.

I've only been bothered once with a starving young black bear at the gargage bin that wouldn't go away and I had to send him off with a 38 special in his head.

Felt a bit sad about that...his ribs were showing and his skin was sagging and he was bawling like a baby. Couldn't be helped, I live in cattle country with lots of young kids and stock running all over the place and he was a danger to all.

Keep us up to date as you work out your loads...I haven't gone over 250gr and never even thought about it, but if yours works out well I might just dig around and see what happens in my shooter.

Luck

Please keep us updated on how things go with load development, this is an interesting conversion.

Twist calculator? Do provide the link!!
My bullets are only 1.060".
I don't have data for the 356 with bullets that heavy so I was using downgraded 358 data. I also want to keep the velocity down because my 5' 110lb wife may be shooting this when she takes the dogs out.
This won't be a go out in bear counrty and walk along gun. If I go into bear country (elk hunting or firewood cutting) I take a 358 Norma or when firewood cutting, a Dan Wesson 445 S Mag w/330gr bullets. My dogs aren't big enough to keep anything away. They may actually attract a predator. My Avatar has a pic of my 7 lb princess . This gun is just for the bears that find their way too close to my house.
John Linebaugh lives across the creek from me and his research shows that over 1300 fps you don't gain a whole lot of penetration. Several years back he tested a 38 Spl with 220gr or 250gr (I forget) bullets at around 1100fps. At that time it penetrated the most - even exceeding a 458 WM. He even recommends 1200fps for his 475 and 500 Linebaughs. I guess if your after hogs or elk a little more velocity and shock effect can be a good thing. But for deep penetration he stays around 1200fps.

I have 4895, BLC-2, AA 2520, IMR 4007SSC, 4064 and Ramshot Big Game and TAC.

I'll keep it small loop for now. I may get the metal ceracoated to match my krylon stock paint job.

I'm planning on rebarreling my Savage 99 to 358 Win in order to fill that hole.
Can ya tell I am kinda partial to the 35 cal

Interesting post, who is JES and how much did the conversion set you back? New barrel or a rebore?

Rebore.
$225 includes return shipping
About 2 weeks from the time it left my hands 'til it was back in my hands.
http://www.35caliber.com/

Cowboy, good and interesting posts. I love the 35cal also in every flavor!

Hope your wife makes it back inside too

It's bullet LENGTH, not bullet weight that governs twist rate...but since most heavier bullets are also longer, the two get mixed up.

Google "twist rate", you will get a bunch come up...all my twist rate calculatora are included in several of my software exterior ballistics programs.

I ran your 1.060" from 1200 to 3000fs and the twist rate was 18-23 so most "normal twisted" 35 cal will handle. The longest 35 cal I could find was the Nosler 225gr AB at 1.6" had an optimum twist rate of 16 to 3500fs. Woodleigh 310 FMJ were 1.44" long.

While you can certainly kill a bear with a pistol in hunting situations and John Linebaughs beautiful creations are awesome hunters and a joy to behold...in a surprise situation with ANY bear you don't have enough time to say "SHI*"...even if you THINK you're ready. A bear can run faster than a horse, have been clocked at 25-30 mph over several hundred yards and faster when really spooked...about 35f/s or more and can accellerate from sleeping to that fast in about a second...you might want to reconsider your thoughts on the matter.

I use a Mossy 3.5" 12 ga with my own 750 to 1000gr slugs mixed with Dixie Slugs 3.5" slugs and Tri-balls now and used a Fox double barrel "sawed off at both ends" to minimum lawfull lengths in the distant past.

I killed that yearling bear while it was just standing there looking at me at about 20 ft. Used the same pistol...S&W 4" Combat Masterpiece loaded with 38 specials, 158 gr RN lead bullets...that I used to use in competition, and I won a LOT of booty with it. I fired off a couple of rounds to scare it off the first time around and when it ran around the barn then started walking back, it was all over. The Mossy was leaning against my leg and if it was a full grown bear doing the same thing I would have hit it with 3 73 cal/12ga rounds as fast as I could the FIRST time...and I CAN work a pump pretty fast.

Just something to think about....reality wise.

Luck

Do ya know how fast the 750-1000gr slugs are moving in a shortened barrel? I agree, there is no substitute for projectile diameter, but I can't have my wife afraid of the gun due to recoil. The reason I take the handgun while wood cutting is because if I took a long gun it would sit 10' away while I had the chainsaw in my hand. I'm sure the bear would beat me to the gun !! The handgun stays on my hip. I use the 358 Norma because shotguns don't have the range for elk hunting. Living in OR I'm sure you know that, but an east coater reading this thread might not.

Thanx for the twist info. Is it overall bullet length or bearing surface length that is critical for twist? The bearing surface length is about .950" on this cast bullet. The bearing length on some old Barnes 300gr FMJ bullets that I have is about .775". On 250gr Hornady Spire pt bullets about .625" and on Barnes 250gr X bullets about .725".
Summary of some 35 cal bullets:
300gr Barnes FMJ OAL= 1.360", bearing = .775"
275gr Norma RN OAL= 1.285", bearing = .785"
250 gr Barnes X OAL= 1.390", bearing = .725"
Hornady 250gr Spire OAL= 1.25", bearing = .625"
Nosler 250gr Partition OAL = 1.285" bearing .685"
Cast 285gr GC bullet OAL = 1.050", bearing = .950"

The cast bullet has the shortest length but the longest bearing surface.

All twist programs ask for 3 specific things...bullet LENGTH, bullet CALIBER and VELOCITY...4 if you count whether it has a boat tail or not...bearing surface plays it's part in accuracy and pressure relationships...more bearing area, more pressure required to get it started and keep it going, but that gets into the esoteric end of the arguments more than anything...bearing surface has really no "bearing"(pun intended) on bullet stability...arguably.

The velocity for those heavy slugs runs from 1000 to over 1500 fs for use in a pumpgun and whether in a smoothbore or rifled barrel, either my Mossy 535 or Rem 870, I have both barrels for both shotguns. In my NEF Ultra Slug I can go quite a bit faster. Better accuracy in the rifled barrels, but that isn't always the case...it depends on the diameter of the cast slug and choked or not. These loads are using a plastic case...When using a modified 50 BMG case and 14-1500 gr brass slugs, you can get over 1700 fs real easy...YOU can...I pass...

Goto AccurateReloading... http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve... Big Bore forum, "12 GA from Hell" link...all the latest information on the various 8ga, 10ga and 12ga stuff is there. Dixie Slugs... http://www.dixieslugs.com/... has loaded ammo and lots of information on testing...EVERYONE should check out these sites ANYTIME they have hallucinations and delusions about a bear/pistol "what do I use to save my azzzz" scenario.

The main problem with these big slugs is recoil and recovery for a second or third shot. Depending on which slug weight, powder weight and total ejecta column weight the recoil in my 9 lb Mossy/Rem shotguns goes from 60 ftlbs to 120 ft lbs...a bit less with my 15# NEF USH with muzzle break...but that has only one shot and 15# is hard to move quickly...great for hunting, but NOT for taking on a moving dangerous animal unless you are very practiced and stout too boot.

I understand about people and their ability to handle recoil...it is very subjective. Being able to handle recoil is a "learned activity", it takes time to learn...and you have to learn how to handle it by doing it and finding YOUR point of comfort. I've seen a few very petite ladies pop off a 458 WM and a Lott off hand with nary a complaint...I don't know how they kept standing...and stout "Bubbas" walk off with their arm dragging almost sobbing.

I'm 5'10", 250#, welder/truck mechanic most of my life...a fireplug...and recoil isn't a bother for the most part with most of my weapons...but my NEF 12GaFH with a 1400 gr Darwin solid brass slug, loaded with 100 gr of powder at 1400fs generates over 125 ft lbs of recoil(a little less with a MB). I'm not all that keen on doing an afternoon of developing loads off the bench even WITH a 25lb lead shot sissy bag between me and the stock ...and even offhand with a Magnum Past recoil shoulder pad, absording that amount of recoil for a few shots leaves my whole body shaking uncontrollably. When I was 20 I could handle the recoil of large bores without too much problem, but at 70, the mind makes the old body pay for such foolishness.

When I cut wood, alone usually, I keep my Mossy on my ATV rack and it moves with me as I cut...hardly more than arms length away... a chain saw is a very good weapong if used like a sword in front of you... I carry my Sig 220, 45 ACP with my own Plus P hardball loads...and I'm very good with that also...but it doesn't really matter as if you're cutting wood with a chain saw you can't hear a thing and you are consentrating on the saw anyway...so...Besides bears and cougars leave the area as soon as they hear/smell any kind of human activity...it's only when humans don't make any noise that they get into trouble...usually...generally speaking.

A Dixie slugs 750gr "Terminator" at about 1200 fs generates about 40 ftlbs of recoil...about the same level as a 12ga Magnum shotshell...and is much quicker to recover for a second shot.

Besides a .73gr flat nosed projectile has a cross sectional nose area of ~0.42 sq in while a 50 cal bullet is less than half that area 0.196" sq in. My 510 Makatak does 2400fs with a 535gr bullet...plenty of slap for even an elephant but I will STILL use that BIG, flat nosed 12 ga slug for anything mean, toothy and nasty up close on this side of the pond.

I've tested the "Terminator" slug and others from 500 gr to 1045 gr on lodgepole pine dry logs from end to end and from side to side with penetration of 3' and ended up with lots of kindling I didn't have to split with a maul. ...and the slugs ended up with varying degrees of disruption...the Lyman 525 gr slugs flattened out to ~0.850" OD, the Terminators had the noses smeared slightly and some could have been used again in a smooth bore, the other 500 gr DGR slugs had their noses smeared and the plastic gas seals chewed up, but otherwise didn't loose much weight...and the deer and elk I've shot with them just folded up and hit the ground.

Anyway...slightly OT and what you use and how you use it is personal choice...I'm not trying to talk you into or out of anything...just presenting some arguments and my personal observations. I've been in deep stuff many times in my life...been chased by bulls, elk cows, buck deer, a crazy jackrabbit, a HUGE beaded lizard and a couple of rattle snakes(only a few steps) and bad guys etc, but never a whizzed off grown bear...I'm not so much afraid of getting whacked but the thought of ending up as bear shi* is embarrasing, but dying in bed is even worse.

Luck

Hawk bullets www.hawkbullets.com make some odd caliber/weight bullets. Besides the normal 200,225 and 250gr .358 caliber they make 275gr and 300gr. Also North Fork bullets make a 270grainer. While these are probably not needed in a .356win they are out there. Also Mt Baldy bullets makes a 280gr gas check cast, as well as a 240grainer. I have a BLR in .358win and a Savage 110 in 35 Whelen, oddly enough the Whelen has a 1-14" twist rate while the BLR has a 1-12" rate maybe the lower velocity of the 358win dictates a faster spin with heavier bullets? Love them 35's

As a side note i just bought a 336 in 375win and i cant wait to see what she will do!!!!