Home Forums Reloading Varmint Rifles Experiences with fouling and the 17 calibers?

Trying to decide between another 17 rem or fireball gun vs a 22 caliber varmint rifle, and called an unnamed ( to protect his opinion) barrel maker who told me that 17 calibers foul more than 22 calibers ( question was on hornet capacity- so no screamers) and if he were to choose between the 2 he said he would go with the 22 K hornet.


I haven't shot either of my 17 remington guns enough to make my own opinion on fouling, which I assume his concern was accuracy loss . Curious if others have gone away from shooting "volume" quantities of 17's and switched to 22's. Expecting to shoot at a max 100 rds between cleaning as I have enough vermin rigs to rotate during a day's outing.


Thanks for your experience / opinions


Allen

Sir,

I load for a number of small caliber chamberings.



l to r

17 ackley hornet, 17 hebee, 17 mach iv, 17 fireball, 17 remington, 20 vartarg, 20 tactical, 22 hornet, 218 bee, 221 fireball 222 Rem, 223 Rem, 223 Rem AI, 22-250, 220 swift.

I've been shooting the 17 Ackley Hornet and 17 Mach IV since the mid nineties. Firing Seventy-five to 100 rounds at a moderate pace, you should see very little degradation in accuracy. Although I don't care for them, you can also use moly bullets. Sometimes I wonder how many folk have actually "worked" with the sub calibers.

FWIW, I think most folks over-clean. In fact I don't even do barrel break in any more. I get three or 4 bore brushes, a quality rod, brass brushes and use a mixture of JB bore paste and Kroil. I "hand lap the barrels with 200 + strokes, usually 50 or so between cleaning the brush and using fresh application of aforementioned mixture. That is my "break in". IIRC an article in the Small Caliber News years ago featured a fellow that was near 300 rounds through his MachIV since he had cleaned it. He was going to see just how many rounds he could fire before accuracy cratered.
As an aside, if you haven't picked out a rifle yet or have your heart set on the Fireball, you might check out the 20 VarTarg, which is the 221 Fireball necked down to 20 Cal. It's a mild mannered chambering that has excellent accuracy potential.




GWB

Thanks for your input.


I do recall long ago remington got bad press with the 17 remington due to fouling, but I also know barrels are much better than they were then.


I was surprised at the Barrel Mfg saying that too, but it also may have been a higher people complain about the 17's more than a K hornet, ie they would rather sell the 22's than 17's.

I am loaded heavy on 20 cal's, my 17 rem is an AR so a single shot/ bolt is my next acquisition, I hope.


How much for the Vartag? I have a supply of 4198...LOL

Thanks

Allen

I've been shooting the .17 Fireball a lot the past few years, the rifle an all-factory synthetic-stocked Rem. 700 with a chrome-moly barrel. It fouled some at first, while shooting up a case of factory ammo, but once I switched to handloads using Ramshot TAC (very clean-burning, with a de-coppering agent) it didn't foul much. I then installed Dyna Bore Coat and the bore hardly fouls at all anymore. My handload duplicates the velicity of factory ammo, 3950 or so in a 24" barrel with 20-grain bullets.

I just bought a .17 Remington 700 BDL made in early 1973 so will soon find out if it fouls more, though the bore looks very smooth in my bore-scope. I suspect part of the problem with the .17 Remington wasn't so much the barrels as the dirty-burning ball powder used in factory ammo. Heavy powder fouling doesn't do any good for accuracy itself, but also tends to increase copper fouling due to abrasion.

The Ramshot ball powders are very clean-burning, and today we also have a number of small-grained extruded powders that burn cleanly today that are almost as easy to drop inside a .17 caliber neck.

Ohhhhh...its gonna foul like a Maux Faux, and you'll have to get rid of it...quickly.....

Thanks again.


John, can't wait for your loading experience out of the 17 Remington. I have a good load worked up for the AR, around 3/4" that I need to repeat before loading a batch for next spring, and still need to continue seasoning the UBC as it is still coming out blue and assume it will stop after the next backyard session. I think I have a way to start expansion on the little pills to keep from blowing holes in my 1/4" Milspec armorplate...

Allen

Hemiallen: I have been shooting the 17 MachIV for a long time now and have never been troubled with "fouling" interfering with my Varmint Hunting.
I also have a Remington 700 VSF in 17 Remington Fireball - again no fouling troubles to date!
I currently have 3 different factory Models of the Remington 700 in 17 Remington - I am somewhat overly protective of these three Rifles when it comes to round count between cleanings.
With that caveat in mind again I do not experience lack of accuracy troubles with any of these factory Rifles!
I use them mostly for Colony Varminting and some predator Hunting.
I am quite smitten with the 204 Ruger and its amazing performance in the Varmint arena!
That might be an interesting new Varminter for you?
I would NOT be afraid to try another 17 centerfire at all based on my decades of in field and at the range useage!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
P.S.: As usual be wary, VERY WARY, of the bizarre dribblings of self described and proven "TURD" like peoples - it naver ceases to amaze me of the irrelevence and idiot like musings of the few TURDS that unfortunately frequent this and some other outdoor sites!
These folks (TURDS) have nothing of merit or sensibilty to add yet they TURD around making fools of themselves!
Sheesh - grow up TURDS or go play with yourself in the corner!

This is precious......

Uncle Larry??.....

hemiallen,

If your bore is still gathering copper after its been shot a number of times after installing DBC, then you should put some more in the bore.

Installing DNC in smaller bores can be a problem, due to more of the stuff being pushed out of the bore by the patch or bore mop than staying inside. The instructions say to use a bore mop, and I've definitely found a mop to work better than a patch in smaller bore. But some mops also fit too tightly. I've started using a file card or coarse sandpaper on mops before using them to install DBC. The mop should fit the bore loosely.

Nope...thats your aunt Sally.....

LOL!!!!

I've toyed with several 17's and my testing is not very good: I haven't ran a patch through any of them (except a used Douglas 17 Rem. that, after cleaning, I found there was no throat).

We've put about 400 rounds through an old, used 17 Rem Ultra Wildcat barrel, and it hasn't shown a noticeable change in accuracy. My friend bought his 17 Fireball 3-4 years ago and have never cleaned it (it still shoots 3/4, five shot groups).

We put a hundred rounds through a new (but old) Flaig/Douglas 17-222Mag barrel about a month ago. It shot as scary from the start as it did ten minutes before we left. That sucker shot a 1/2 in, maybe less, five shot group for me after it already had about 75 rounds through it.

I think there was as much ado about bad bullets of that size as bad barrels back at its infancy along with dirty (especially ball) powders, and a combination of them would certainly make one search for an answer.

I haven't had enough issues to find an answer for and I do not clean unless there is a need to.

Thanks John.

About UBC, I was concerned when I had other guns treated that cleaning after range session 2 they still showed copper, then did some searching and it seems the consensus is it takes a few range sessions before the barrel is usually copper free???

I used one of the nylon strings with a blob made on the end by melting then filing smaller, cut down patch and made sure it was still wet after pulling through the bore ( ie wet at the muzzle) and did 2 settings since it takes so little liquid on the small bore. I think the application was ok, but will recoat if the consensus is it should be copper free after the second range session ( 20 shots after broken in)


Yes, I read early bullets were problematic adding to the early remingtons getting bad press.


Thank you

Allen

hemiallen,

Are you cleaning all the copper out after the first (curing) range session? Treated barrels normally foul during the curing shots. Then you clean 'em and there should be noticeably less copper after that.

Thanks John

I have been using the string to remove any brass discoloration/ false readings I initially saw with a cleaning rod, and my 223 had the same showing of Cu after the second shooting session. I'll shoot the 223 a few more "sessions" to see if my application is poor in general, using CU+2 mostly.


Thanks

Allen

hemiallen, my 17 Remingtons copper fouled heavy with fast loads of 24.0g of IMR 4320 and 25g bullets, velocity was around 4100+. In two Sako Vixens, I got around 25-30 shots before bullets started going side ways. I shot the barrels out of the two Vixens with Win 760 on dog towns in the very early 80's.

Next came two Rem 700's in 17 Rem, and my hunting partner had at least 4. I shot the barrels out of mine with a hot load of 760, once again with 25's, velocity in the 3900-4000 fps area. Typical shooting on dog towns was to shoot till the bullets started disappearing, then clean.

My partner started shooting AA2015 with the 25s with the velocity in the 3850 fps with the 25's with a powder charge of about 21.5g with a Rem 7 1/2 primer. Shot strings in Rem factory rifles was in the 100-125 round area

Powder fouling is of major importance in the 17 Remington, especially if you are into high volume shooting.

I built a turn neck, minimum SAAMI spec 17 Rem on a Shilen barrel, and started shooting groups in the .300's and smaller almost immediately after the initial sight in with AA2015. With all of these 17 Rem's that we shot out, it seems that if you keep the velocity below 3900 with the 25g, that copper fouling is MUCH less. Further more, any bullet made on a J-4 jacket will foul less than other bullets.

We started tumbling our bullets in Wax sold by Todd Kindler of Small Caliber News and immediately saw a reduction in copper fouling. The Wax also lowered the Standard Deviation in velocity to the low teen's.

I think that the UBC treatment would do nothing but improve the situation in addition to the Wax on the bullets.

Over on the www.saubier.com board, you will see a group of very experienced small cartridge wild catter's, and I encourage you to post over there.

Keith,

You mentioned Sako and Saubier and Todd K.

Years ago I purchased a Boyd's thumbhole laminate stock from a fellow. It had been bedded for a Sako S491 action. Would you be that Keith?

GWB

New solvents, better bullets, powders and cleaning gear make the 17caliber horror stories acient history. I love small calibers. I have ran everything from 14-221 walker up to a 20Tactical. I have never had any of the issues that were talked about when the 17 Remington came out.

ingturdwe: As usual your postings are completely devoid of any rational thought or positive input in any way shape or form!
You once again prove YOUR OWN STATUS as nothing but a turd.
Your bizarre dribbling quote to follow:

"Ohhhhh...its gonna foul like a Maux Faux, and you'll have to get rid of it...quickly..... "

Grow up turd - life is passing you by and you have NOTHING to offer anyone - to date!

Again all should be aware of turds and turds who go out of their way to prove their turdiness AND THEN take the time and effort to describe themselves as turds!
Sheesh, what a worthless turd you are there ingturdwe!
If you have nothing pertinent or positive to add I ask again why don't YOU just go flush yourself?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy