Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders Considering entry to ML shooting

In WI we get our 9 day deer season, but it can be quite a free for all bordering on a cluster-f#$@ with all of the shooting going on. Hunting parties start making drives on opening morning these days. Thankfully our 60 acres falls in a fairly quiet section, but the deer are definitely smart and know what is up once the shooting starts. We have a ML season that follows the traditional season and I'm thinking I would like to give this a shot.

I'm familiar with metallic reloading and have loaded thousands of rounds of varmint ammo so I know how to pay attention to detail. What I've been considering is the Savage 10mlIIss inline for simplicity. Any suggestions as to whether I'm making a good choice and is it practical to think that I could pick up something like this and hit the ground running in a couple of weeks with a handful of shots to get on target or do I need to send a bunch of lead flying to get acquainted?

Don't take what i'm about to say personally. What you want to do is quite common today. Let me jump on my bandwagon for a minute. I don't feel what I say will sway you in anyway, and you'l go ahead and get a muzzleloader.

There was a time when there was no muzzleloader season. If you wanted to hunt with a muzzleloader. You did it during the rifle season. Then states started to open muzzleloader only seasons. These were started for those who love to shoot muzzleloaders. The accepted the limitations of the guns. It was the intention of the states to give the true muzzleloader shooters a season of their own. It wasn't a season added so the rifle shooters could have an extra season to hunt. That's what it has turned into though.
What has happened now is the muzzleloader licence/tag is harder to get than a rifle tag. I don't shoot anything but muzzleloaders. I'm forced to hunt the rifle season with a muzzleloader, because it's harder to get the muzzleloader tag. Those who love muzzleloaders for what they are, and not to hunt an extra season, are forced out of their own season to hunt.

Oh hell. Why do I bother. It's a dead end street now.

Carry on.


btw..Go ahead and buy the Savage. You can shoot smokeless powder in it. No sense in buying black powder if you don't have to. (saracsm on full)

I have a great deal of empathy for what Old Hunter has said above (Myself being something of an old hunter as well), though in Idaho, we simply add a Muzzeloader endorsement to our license.

What has happened in many states is that, because of popularity and in some states the virtually unrestricted category of weapons, the distinction between a muzzleloader and a modern firearm has become hard to find except for the single shot feature.

Protected, in-line ignition, saboted projectiles, and scopes have increased the efficiency and effective ranges of the weapons, and have inarguably increased harvest rates by comparison to "traditional weapon" requirements. That's cool, but F&G Departments have reacted to increased rates of harvest by simply reducing the seasons and opportunities to keep things in balance. So, many states which do not much restrict the attributes of a "muzzleloader" are seeing "muzzleloader" seasons sort of melt in with the regular rifle seasons.

We should clarify that Idaho hunter . We do not have an open state wide muzzlelaoding season .
Instead we have specific areas that are defined . While its true that we can just buy an stamp for some of those areas . a lot are now DRAW only .
We aldo do not need to purchase a muzzlelaoding stamp , if we are using a muzzleloader in the general any weapons season or a designated short range weapons hunt .
Again the stamp is only required for specified MUZZLELOADING ONLY hunts .
That stamp is only good in open hunts .
In permit/ draw hunts , not only do you need the stamp but you also must draw a tag and pay for that tag. In doing so you are then locked into that area and only that area for the species the tag was drawn for

thus while you may have a majority of open hunts up north , thats not the case in centrial or southern idaho

That is right-on captchee. What is aggravating about our Northern general muzzleloading seasons for elk is that they are typically spikes-only, a truly aggravating feature when you stumble across one of the big-uns.

A ML tag in Colorado used to be for the whole state. Now it's draw only, and you have to pick a unit to apply for just like rifle season.

While ML season in CO does increase thea bility to get two a tags in some areas, I must admit I hunt both. Mostly because it gives me 20 days or so in the field vs 10 which I value more than what tool I am carrying. No big deal if I do not fill either tag, but some years I fill the ML tag, some I years I fill the centerfire rifle tag.A few years I filled both.

I think the month long archery season in CO is more of a misnomer in such that the technology has far surpassed the original intent.

I agree. Look at unit 55 for 2010. The bow hunters got 43 bulls. The muzzleloader got zero.

Bow hunters aren't handicapped anymore. They don't even have to wear blaze orange.

Wow thanks for all the on topic answers :rolleyes:

WI season for ML is simple. If you have a gun deer tag left at the end of season you can use it for the ML season that immediately follows. The first 3-4 days following the gun deer season are pretty much a waste, but by the time the following weekend comes along things start to settle down.

I'm not a fan of the Savage, so I couldn't help you much. I didn't get the simplicity part. Because it's an inline, or it can use smokeless powder? Almost all muzzleloaders will need a load worked up that the gun likes. By the time you get the load worked out you should be familiar with it enough to go hunting.

I didn't mean to bust your chops. It a sore spot for me.

The Savaga ML is a fine weapon. You should have no problem becoming aquainted and effecient with it. Mine shoots great with 45 grs. of VV N110 and a Barnes MZ 250 gr. saboted bullet. It won't take much to find what your rifle likes. There are a couple of powders that Savage recommends in the loading manual, they work ok also. The VV N110 gives it a little more oomph.

Tennessee has a 2 week ML season prior to the rifle season. You have to buy a ML tag for $28.00, and you are allowed to kill 2 of your 3 buck limit, and 3 doe per day every day of the season. Non-Resident license runs $250.00 for the entire hunting season.

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IdahoElkHunter has defined the "problem" well... I.E., the "mix" of muzzleloaders (both "modern in-lines" and "traditional" muzzleloaders) together with modern rifle hunting seasons have almost made the "special" muzzleloader seasons useless.

What needs to be done is to split the "muzzle-loader" season into two categories... "Muzzle-Loaders using iron sights shooting ONLY a patched, lead rifle ball" and "Muzzle-Loaders ONLY".

With such a long designation, it could be shortened to just "Muzzle-loader/patched, round ball ONLY/iron sights ONLY" and "Muzzle-loaders ONLY.

The reason being that there is a distinct and major "difference" in range and accuracy between a patched, round lead rifle ball fired from a flintlock or cap-lock rifle vs. a sabotted jacketed "bullet" fired from any muzzle-loader.

If you think about it, there's not all that much "difference" between an in-line shooting a patched, round, rifle ball and a traditional flint-lock or percussion cap rifle shooting the same round, patched rifle ball.

The big complaint from traditional muzzle-loader shooters comes when the in-line shooters use scopes and sabotted, jacketed bullets weighing close to 250 or 300 grains that are more accurate and far out-range round rifle balls from traditional muzzle-loader shooters using patched, round rifle balls.

The "playing field" can easily be leveled by causing in-line users to fire patched, round rifle balls just like the traditional shooter do and limiting the powder load to "100 grains or less".

The ballistic inefficiency (the rapid slowing down of the projectile due to air friction) of the patched, round rifle ball definitely "level-the-playing-field" causing those objectionable "differences" between the "traditional" and "in-line" rifles to quickly fade into "nothingness".

If all States would set up their deer seasons in the above suggested way, the controversy between the traditional and in-line muzzle loader shooters would disappear in all likelihood and if the in-line users wanted their own season, then so be it.

If there is any other "problems" in doing this... I'd appreciate your posts telling me what they are.

Jus' my 2�...


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

Well, to your point number one, I have two answers, the first being "so what." The "big complaint" from in-line shooters is traditional shooters getting on their high horse and saying "you don't do it like I do so you're not really shooting a muzzleloader." The big complaint from bowhunters is that they have to share their early season with guys toting rifles. Again, so what. Should we tailor our seasons according to "the big complaint" of in-line shooters, since there's more of them?

My second answer would be to eliminate scopes and sabots (if they're the problem, as you said) like Colorado has done.

As to your second point, who are you, or anybody else to dictate how "all states" should structure their hunting seasons? States have differing reasons for holding special muzzleloader seasons, not all do it so that traditional hunters can have their own season. States back east do it because they have way too many deer and they want the populations reduced, regardless of the method of take. Individual states need the flexibility to set their seasons according to their own objectives.

And to the original poster, sorry for the diversion, I can't help with your question but I will say I've never heard a Savage owner say he couldn't get his rifle to shoot, and there's been a fair amount of discussion about the rifles here.

http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/index.cgi
If you are looking to get a Savage I suggest you take a look at this sight. It is a forum with a lot of knowledgeable and helpful people who have been shooting and experimenting with the Savage since it first came out.
I shoot one myself and love it.
Cash

Thank you very much. I have a friend who follows and agrees with my theory that the ML season is often more appealing and often more successful. He offered to let me use his tried and true ML as he'll be away at work. He also said his next one will likely be a Savage. I'm hoping to end up with a Savage myself, BUT I was really hoping to find the stainless with laminated stock which is apparently no longer in production...

What are the odds of finding a stainless/lam for sale preferrably new?

Are they still making new ones? I thought I read they will make one special order, but i'm not sure that's true.

The chromoly/synthetic are still listed but like you mentioned sounds like made to order only.

From what the vendors are telling me, they are only running them once a year, seems like it was February last year, and they only ran Blue/Synthetic & Blue/Laminated. Don't know if their gonna run S/S next or not.

JohnP

21 weeks and no stainless is what I was told. I talked to a nearby dealer that had 3 but all were spoken for. One party was questionable so I had him put me on the list.

laminated stock and scope bring the savage over 10lbs.