Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only New guy with 405 Winchester question

With 2 teen age boys using my 300 Win Mags I was in the market for a big bore lever gun when I reluctantly traded my AR 15 for a Model 1895 Winchester chambered in 405 Winchester. I say reluctantly because I was looking for an 1895 Marlin in 45-70. But after shooting 2 boxes of 405 factory loads I have started to reload for it because it has become my favorite gun. Almost everyone in Alaska either has a 45-70 or has had one. But the 405 WCF is kind of rare. Just the history if the 405 WCF is cool enough but add to that it is really fun to shoot. I put a Williams peep on it (my tire old eyes can�t focus on the stock sights) and I can get a respectable group at 100 yards.

I reload Hornady 300 grain FNJ bullets over 58 grains of H4895 and they chrony at an average of 2265 fps. Now I want to find some hard cast WFN and LFN bullets in the 350 grain to 400 grain range. A search on the web finds a few 300 grain hard casts and a 325 grain from Montana Bullet Works. I will try them but I can�t find anything in the 350 to 400 grain range. I see in some of the posts on this forum a few of you guys are shooting 400 grain bullets. So I joined the forum so I could ask you where you are getting them. I have really enjoyed reading all the post on the 405 Winchester here. Thanks for any information you could pass on regarding hard cast bullets for the 405.

Look for 400 grainers intended for the 450-400 N.E.

Hornady has a .410" and Woodleigh made a .411", not sure if they still do though.


Pete

Congrats, a 405 WCF is a very cool gun.

The problem with going to 400 grains is twofold. One you slow down velocites too much in my opinion and then there is the issue of limited OAL. I recommend you try 300gr Barnes TSXs specifically designed ogive to handle the 1895's magazine box and they will penetrate better than a conventional cup & core 400gr slug. My recipe is 51-52gr VV N-133. If you want a solid, the North Fork solid is absolutely superb (reduce the load to 50.5gr), both get 2250 plus with no problem and great accuracy (sub MOA@ 50 yards). jorge

I spent a considerable amount of time last summer testing bullets in my 400 Whelen. Ballistics wise it matches up pretty well with the 405 Winchester. I tried both the Hornady 300 grain bullets, the flat nose and the spitzer, Woodleigh's 400 grain RN, Barnes' 300 grain TSX and Hawk's 300, 350 and 400 grain bullets. Hawk makes a pretty good selection of bullets in the .411 diameter. I really liked the 350 Hawk in my rifle but have not had a chance to take any game with it yet.

I also had Accurate Molds make a mold throwing two different weights of bullets, a 320 and 400 grain. I have cast a few but haven't had a chance to get to the range yet to try them out. Shoot me a PM if you would like to try a few in your 405.

I think you will love that 405. Keep us posted.

Mart

Thanks for all the info

I have been looking at the Hornady 400 gr DGS bullet but I wonder if the 405 will stabilize the .410 diameter bullet.

Woodleigh�s 400 gr soft point looks like a good option and the 1.298� length will chamber fine. Midway USA also has a Woodleigh 400 gr FMJ but it is 1.412� long. It may be too long to chamber, and I hate to spend $76 plus shipping for a box of 50 and find out I can�t use them.

I had not heard of the Hawk bullets before but they look like good options for expanding bullets.

I may have to give that TSX a try. I don�t have any experience with solids yet.

I would like to find a low expanding 350 to 400 grain bullet for deep penetration in brown bear

I tried the 400 gn Hornadys (.410" diameter) in my Ruger #1 and the few that hit the paper at 100 yd made oblong holes. The 400 gn Woodleigh (.411") were very accurate and are made for the 450/400 Nitro at 2150 fps. Hodgdon has data for this bullet and Benchmark powder.

Cheers,
Walt

IMHO 300gr slug going 2200fps will take anything in NA. So stick with the weight that has worked for a long time. Clint

I know that 300 gr will the job, I just like to tinker.

JorgeI: I am looking for an article on velocity vs. penetration. Elmer Keith and others have done testes that indicate that the heavy big bores get better penetration at lower velocities (1400-1800 FPS) than at higer velovities. (When I find it I'll post the link.) If this is true the lower velocitiy for a 400 gr bullet won't be detrimental. With iron sights and old eyes I am pretty much limited to 100 yds or less any way. If I can get 1800 fps out of a 400 gr bullet it will still be traveling at over 1550 fps at 100 yds.

Current 1895 (jap) Winchesters have a .413 bore and both of mine have no problems with any of the bullets mentioned. The only caution are with North Fork .413 solids that need to be dialed back about 2gr to keep velocites (pressures) down.

I found the article: http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.html

I just slugged my bore. My caliper reads .412 but my caliper is an old plastic one. I'll have my friend check it with his higher quality guage.

It's a great cartridge with lots of history, and I think, a good future. Lovin' mine in a #1 Ruger.

I use 300 Barnes X. They're accurate, and they retain weight well. (Like all Barnes X.)

I will definitely be trying out the Barnes X bullets. I think they will be excellent for moose, brown bear or bison if I draw a tag one of these years. Kodiak bear and Bison are on my bucket list.

Like I said above I like to tinker with things and I want to try some heavier bullets. I called Lee Precision today and spoke with one of their technical reps about resizing .417 commercially made, lubed and gas checked hard cast bullets down to .412. He said that it could be done and that for $35.00 Lee will make me a sizing die of that size. So in 6 to 8 weeks I will have the sizing die and some 375 grain .417 diameter hard casts from Beartooth to try it out on.

He also said that I could size down a .416 jacketed bullet with the same die. If this works, it will open up a wider selection of bullets to reload with. I�ll know in a couple of months.

I got one of the Winchester 95s several years ago.
I bought mine to be a cast bullet gun exclusevely.
NEI and Mountain molds make great products. NEI makes a great 300 grain gas checked and Mountain molds made a 350 grain gas checked mold for me.
I've had my best results with IMR 3031.
Have fun.

Jim

North,
Welcome to the 1895 .405 WCF club.
Keep us posted on your progress.
You have received much good information already and more will likely come along soon. For most all game, you should be able to use an appropriate 300 grain bullet as discussed in posts above.

All that I can add at this time is that I have pushed the Hornady .410 400 grain bullets to 2050 fps in my 1895 TD .405 before having the chamber lengthened to allow seating the .411 400 grain Woodies at the cannelure. When time allows, I will get back to loading and testing the Woodies and will then post the results. Others have reported good velocities and accuracy with these bullets and have used then on cape buffalo with success; I expact the same in SA next year. Meanwhile, I am very pleased with the accuracy and killing power of the 300 grain bullets.

Thanks for the welcome CRS

You are correct that the 300 grain bullet will do everything I need it to. I have heard that the Hornady 300s don�t stay together when they encounter large bones. That does concern me for a brown bear load. That is why I am looking for a solid that will hold its shape and penetrate even after taking out large bones. With a bullet that is starting out at nearly � inch I am more concerned with penetration that expansion.

As far as 300 grain Hornadys go, the factory loads shoot as well as my reloads but where is the fun in that? I have not yet tried the Barnes TSX bullets. They are on my list.

I�m curios about the 400 grain .410 Hornady bullets. My barrel slugged at .412, I would think that the .410 would be to far undersized to perfume well in my rifle. 2050 fps is very good, how is the accuracy? What powder do you use? So far I have only tried H4895 and Benchmark. Both worked very well and performed better than Hogdon�s data suggested.

When I seat a bullet at 3.190� COL it is touching the riffling and just barely fits in my magazine. It seems that if I lengthened the chamber I would also have to modify the magazine as well.

North,
You are correct about the Hornady factory loads; accurate and very effective if you do not strike large bones. For example, here is a picture of one that passed through the left shoulder blade of a nilgai, but was stopped by the right shoulder blade, requiring two more shots to finish off the critter. Naturally, had I shot the thing properly in the heart/lung area, it would have shot through and one shot would have been sufficient; shot placement wins over other factors again.



For this reason, I loaded North Fork bullets with N133 for my water buffalo and one shot with a NF Cup Point Solid was all that was needed on this animal three times the size of the nilgai, with perfect shot placement, of course. An article on this was on the NF web site some time back but I can not locate it now.

The Hornady .410 DGS were just throwaways to establish a load start point for the Woodies that were on order and I shot them only at 25 yards to chronograph them; at that distance the faster load around 2000 fps shot small groups, but that was of only passing interest. From what I have read they will not stabilize in a clean 1895 .405 barrel.

Somewhere, I have a Word doc on the issue of the magazine length and 400 gr Woodies and I will provide that if my experiments with that bullet work out well. Gotta go now.

TSXs and North Fork softs & solids and I don't think you need to go up to a 400gr bullet.

Jorge,
I do not disagree, but my PH lives here in the Dallas area and we have been working together on the 400 gr loads. Though this is a fun project, I will also be taking my trusted NF loads with me to SA.

I know I don't need to go to a 400gr bullet, I have to go to a 400gr bullet. When I get there I might back off to 300 but I have to get there first.

mart has generously offered to make me some 320 and 400 gr cast bullets. I will be making a trip to down to SA (South Alaska) later this month so I will get to meet mart and hopefully see his 400 Whelen as well. As soon as we get some warm weather (+20) I'll range test them and post the results. It was +34 today but that won't last. If only global warming were true.

How much was left of that Hornady JFP?

Those 400 Gr Woogleigh FMJs are attracteve but they are 1.412 inches long. According to my calculations I can load up to a 1.308" bullet for a max compressed load. I never load to max so I might be able to use the Woodleigh with a reduced load. I can use the soft point for sure. If I could get a consistant and accurate 1900 fps out of the FMJ that would be sufficient for 100 to 150 yards.

Thanks for all the input.