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Joined: Oct 2004
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
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MD,
The one bullet in that category that I got outstnading results on from Waterbuck to zebra to cape buffalo is the RWS H-Mantel.
The front end blows up and the backend stays intact and penetrates. I have recovered some rear sections from the 9.3 after some very impressive performance.
I'm disappointed I can't get them anymore.
"The Democrat Party looks like Titanic survivors. Partying and celebrating one moment, and huddled in lifeboats freezing the next". Hatari 2017
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." Han Solo
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Why not just accept the fact that some of us prefer other bullets than your beloved Noslers? We get along just fine with our "flying bricks"'and other designs you seem to look down your nose at, given your vast hunting experience. I could care less what bullet you use. I just don't buy the BS about certain bullets with long proven track records being denigrated by people with little expiereance and or knowledge of said bullets design parameters.
Last edited by BWalker; 04/15/16.
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Campfire Regular
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There you go again making assumptions that you have no way knowing are accurate or not. Many of us are quite familiar with the design parameters of the bullets mentioned and have more than a little experience hunting game of all sizes. If we choose not to use them for various reasons it's not a condemnation of them, it's simply someone liking something else better.
Last edited by John55; 04/15/16.
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Joined: Jun 2007
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
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I guess I would simply ask how many elk you (in the third person of course) have killed with a 300 WBY with which bullet and pay less attention to hearsay bullets tested in gelatin blocks and other speculative endeavors...
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Campfire Outfitter
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There you go again making assumptions that you have no way knowing are accurate or not. Many of us are quite familiar with the design parameters of the bullets mentioned and have more than a little experience hunting game of all sizes. If we choose not to use them for various reasons it's not a condemnation of them, it's simply someone liking something else better. Your assuming I am referring to you.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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In the last great driven Elk hunt in Yellowstone, the 32-20 was the top killer.......
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Posts: 30,266
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,266 |
But there are plenty of hunters who never get beyond a belief in sheer weight retention. No truer words were ever spoken. Barnes thanks the gods for such people...
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Brad, the same people fixate on what a bullet shot into saran wrap looks like vs how efficiently it kills. I like a pretty mushroom, but I like feet in the air pronto more better.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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The AB and PT are fine bullets. Keep in mind even at 300 yards a bullet with a medium BC like an AB will be running away from a brick like an Aframe or a NF.
While I agree the AB and PT are good bullets, the rest is not exactly true. Even if it was, does it matter? The important thing to me is terminal performance. NF are easily the most consistent performers across a wide range of velocities that I have tested. (By 'range of velocities' read 'from 10 feet to 500 yards'.) They expand well, don't lose their tips and jam the gun, don't lose their petals and the solid rear section has ensured decent weight retention even when the front core has been smeared off while passing through heavy bones. Comparing 7mm 160g NF and GS 'bricks' to the AB bullets at 3048fps (the MV for my 7mm RM 160g loads), at 300 yards the AB has a velocity advantage by about 175fps. By 400 yards that advantage is up to 265fps and yet, by some miracle, the 6x5 bull elk I shot last year at 411 yards with a 160g GS 'brick' managed only 4 steps before going down. That is about 55 yards less than the cow I shot in 2013 with a 225g AB from my .338WM, range 487 yards. For me it comes down to trust in proven performance rather than high B.C. values. While I use AB and TTSX quite a bit, I have more trust in the North Fork bullets. That trust is based on about 12 years of testing them at the range and taking game with them in the field. At close ranges the AB have shown weight retention of about 62% while NF and TB retention at the same range has been over 90% and as high as 97%. Given that I've had shots at a few feet but never beyond the range where the 'brick's I use perform well, I plan to continue using the 'bricks'. These pictures were posted earlier in this thread but they demonstrate why I trust NF bullets. The 165g .308" NF 'brick' performed very well - and very similarly - at both 25 yards and 500 yards. From left to right: .30-06, 165g North Fork @ 2800fps 500yds from dirt, 145.0g retained .30-06, 165g North Fork @ 2800fps ~25yds from cow elk, 133.2g retained after hitting a rib and leg bone 7mm 140g North Fork @ 3200fps ~150yds from buck mule deer, 131.2g retained after going from ham to sternum
Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 04/15/16.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Awesome, you have succeeded into turning your 7Mag into a 280!
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,088
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,088 |
hatari,
Did you handload the H-Mantels, or use factory ammo?
I have some factory loads in a few different cartridges from .270 Winchester to 9.3x62, and have shot them both in media and animals with good results. But RWS sent the ammo too me maybe 8-10 years ago, when they were trying to promote their fine stuff in the U.S. They don't seem to make much headway, probably because it's pretty pricey, especially by the time it gets over here goes through a distributor and dealer. Their brass is some of the finest in the world, but don't see it much, even on Internet sites.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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Joined: Feb 2004
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Awesome, you have succeeded into turning your 7Mag into a 280! No, because I use 140g NF and TTSX in the .280. They both get launched about 250fps faster when I use them in my 7mm RM.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 96,042
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 96,042 |
This question needs to be asked,during what part of the animals death did the bullet fail?
Life Member SCI Life Member DSC Member New Mexico Shooting Sports Association
Take your responsibilities seriously, never yourself-Ken Howell Proper bullet placement + sufficient penetration = quick, clean kill. Finn Aagard
Ken
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Campfire Outfitter
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Awesome, you have succeeded into turning your 7Mag into a 280! No, because I use 140g NF and TTSX in the .280. They both get launched about 250fps faster when I use them in my 7mm RM. Same thing applies to your 280. Can't get around poorly designed shape.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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The AB and PT are fine bullets. Keep in mind even at 300 yards a bullet with a medium BC like an AB will be running away from a brick like an Aframe or a NF.
While I agree the AB and PT are good bullets, the rest is not exactly true. Even if it was, does it matter? The important thing to me is terminal performance. NF are easily the most consistent performers across a wide range of velocities that I have tested. (By 'range of velocities' read 'from 10 feet to 500 yards'.) They expand well, don't lose their tips and jam the gun, don't lose their petals and the solid rear section has ensured decent weight retention even when the front core has been smeared off while passing through heavy bones. Comparing 7mm 160g NF and GS 'bricks' to the AB bullets at 3048fps (the MV for my 7mm RM 160g loads), at 300 yards the AB has a velocity advantage by about 175fps. By 400 yards that advantage is up to 265fps and yet, by some miracle, the 6x5 bull elk I shot last year at 411 yards with a 160g GS 'brick' managed only 4 steps before going down. That is about 55 yards less than the cow I shot in 2013 with a 225g AB from my .338WM, range 487 yards. For me it comes down to trust in proven performance rather than high B.C. values. While I use AB and TTSX quite a bit, I have more trust in the North Fork bullets. That trust is based on about 12 years of testing them at the range and taking game with them in the field. At close ranges the AB have shown weight retention of about 62% while NF and TB retention at the same range has been over 90% and as high as 97%. Given that I've had shots at a few feet but never beyond the range where the 'brick's I use perform well, I plan to continue using the 'bricks'. These pictures were posted earlier in this thread but they demonstrate why I trust NF bullets. The 165g .308" NF 'brick' performed very well - and very similarly - at both 25 yards and 500 yards. From left to right: .30-06, 165g North Fork @ 2800fps 500yds from dirt, 145.0g retained .30-06, 165g North Fork @ 2800fps ~25yds from cow elk, 133.2g retained after hitting a rib and leg bone 7mm 140g North Fork @ 3200fps ~150yds from buck mule deer, 131.2g retained after going from ham to sternum And btw assumption that a NF will expand at 500 yards in game from a 30-06 based on shooting a dirt bank is a bit flawed. Last I checked elk aren't made out of dirt.
Last edited by BWalker; 04/15/16.
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BW: are you this pleasant in person?
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Ray,
Petzal apparently believes (as many people do) that weight retention is the ONLY factor in bullet penetration, and it isn't. Frontal area of the mushroom is at least as important, and perhaps more so. This can easily be demonstrated by shooting various bullets of the same weight, diameter and muzzle velocity into the same media. But there are plenty of hunters who never get beyond a belief in sheer weight retention. Yes, I understand what he says. But my point is that in general, the bullets that penetrate the most are the ones that retain more of their weight. For example, the partition is designed to retain around 65% of its weight, the A-Frame around 85 or more%, the FS and TSX around 100%, and so on. Also, that every article I read about bullet penetration versus brand or type the A-Frame is always talked about out-penetrating the partition, and the reason why is one of the top bullets for hunting in Africa.
Last edited by Ray; 04/15/16.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Then you don't understand, in general.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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