Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Wyo got shafted ...again...

Lies?

Provide ONE...

Make the case for "your side" that explains how well Wyomings wolf plan is "working" for Wyomings Hunters and Wyomings big-game populations.

Waiting..............

My point was it isn't working. The sportsman will pay the price along with the ranchers and outfitters.

None of it is really working. The packs double in population every year. Even if we were to kill 50% every year we would be hard pressed to even hold them at current levels.

How many experts have been heard? To many to count. yet the plans never change. The amount of wolves being killed is a drop in the bucket. In 5 years see how successful you are in your hunting endeavors with in a 500 miles radius of where you live.

Do you have facts to back up any thing you just stated?

Didnt think so.

Montanas wolf population, state-wide grew less than 4% following the 2009 hunting season when only 72 wolves were killed via hunting.

Care to guess how much Wyomings Wolf population grew that same year?...10%.

Hunting isnt working and is a drop in the bucket? yet it would appear that "drop in the bucket" drastically reduced wolf population rates in both MT and ID following the 2009 season...Yes?

We'll see just how big that drop in the wolf bucket is after the 2011 hunting season in MT and ID. We'll compare the growth rate of the population in MT and ID to that of Wyoming...any guesses on the outcome?

The sportsmen in Wyoming are paying because of the ranchers and outfitters.

The hunters I know and talk to in Wyoming want to be able to hunt wolves and want state control...they're tired of the WWC's hard line that has kept wolves listed for way too long.

I say we kill every last one of them, then everybody can get along. (only half joking)

Wont happen...only option is to get state control and allow hunting to control numbers. Just the same as we do for lions, bears, deer, elk, oryx, etc.

Wild guess here but unlike you, I'm pretty sure they didn't think it was a good idea to begin with. Alot of people still have enough common sense to realize that you can't trust the government to manage anything.

Looking at the situation as it sits now, anyone who still thinks it was a good idea needs their head examined.

Wasnt a good idea...but I wont be supporting a group that has done everything in their power to make it worse for the last 7+ years, including throwing MT and ID under the bus.

Sam,

Do you think State wolf management with legal hunting/trappings seasons are better than a State having ZERO control over management while wolves enjoy full federal protection/control under the ESA?

When did they count the wolves..? Mid winter? you can't take that as accurate data you need to count in the spring.

Drastically reduced .. are you kidding? Wow, what favor is the gubmint coolaide?

Here ya go gumby... Only quotes from Biologists who studied wolf habits and populations world wide.

















http://rliv.com/pic/TheOutdoorsmanMay.pdf

No, but I don't see a problem with WY's plan either.

I have zero woof experience living up here but isn't it a pretty solid consensus(among people who actually know wolves) that even if wolf had 'coyote' status they'd still be hard to control('keep in check')?

They should be treated as a predator, not a big game animal in my opinion.

Habitate destruction by gas drilling and McMansions is a far bigger problem in WY than Wolves. At least "shoot, shovel and shut up" helps the wolf problem but shooting drillers and rich yuppies is frowned upon.

Wolves have not destroyed the NW Mule deer herd. Uncontrolled gas development and housing developments have destroyed tens of 1000s of acres of the winter range. The terrible winter on 2011 just put the final nail in the coffin. Herd is down 60-70% in last 10 years and WG&F just lies about it. Want to meet some pizzed off people ? Talk to non-resident hunters who paid huge bucks for licenses and outfitters and were lucky to see any deer at all, not to mention a real trophy.

Want a good deer ? Go to Kansas.

Exactly why the wolf should have never been reintroduced in the first place in my opinion.

Ranch 13, you just don't get it, do you? The Game and Fish Department didn't inventory wolves because we weren't allowed to. We literally could not say the word wolf, explain to school children or anyone else what was going on with wolves, we couldn't even be involved, and we couldn't even have a flippin' t shirt with a wolf on it. The attorney general was the one suing the Feds, so he was no help!
I retired because I couldn't stand dealing with ignorant people who were ruining their hunting and mine. I no longer wanted to work for an organization that was so politically controlled it could not set legitimate hunting seasons because hunters had kicked the crap out of the poor devils working for the agency so badly they no longer would set a season based on anything but public opinion. That has now been going on for about 17 years, and it doesn't seem to be working too well, does it?
As for agriculture, I know very well who it was that tried to get me fired several times, and who it was that promoted a bill to get all state employees down to my level made at-will so they could fire me and shut me up. I will never forget. I also know whose livestock carried and still carry the germ that decimated the West's sheep herds, who over-grazes the public land, who gets subsidized in many ways by the taxpayers then denies me access to public land, usually while threatening me, who removed the sagebrush in NE Wyoming to grow more grass for livestock resulting in the current cheatgrass invasion, and who sprayed the shrubs that were once winter range for deer and antelope in many parts of Wyoming. I also know whose complaining created this dozen year wolf fiasco. But, the lynch mob mentality prevails when you don't want anyone to know what you've done.
Your deadline is 8 AM tomorrow to retract what you said about me and apologize. Then hire a lawyer. I'm not going away.

Well at least we all seem to agree that the reintroduction was a pretty bad idea and has been a disaster for the big game herds in the three states.

After supporting the reintroduction now Buzz wants to blame whole mess on Wyoming for a plan that is unquestionably sound from a scientific perspective.

The fact is that wolves are being lethally managed here in Wyoming by the USFWS. How much more or less of an impact a state run hunting season as a trophy game animal with trophy status in the entire state is certainly open to conjecture.

I for one am glad Wyoming has gone the route of the dual classification and am willing to see it through for a little while longer.

Whatever, just give credit and blame where it is due, and quit trying to destroy people who couldn't do anything.

Sam,

It doesnt matter if YOU see a problem with WY's wolf plan or not.

The EIS cant be ignored, the courts have ruled that WY's plan doesnt satisfy the FEIS.

You and all 5 feet 2 inches of Johnboy Burns can argue all day long that Wyomings plan is fine...the courts over the last 7+ years disagree. Their opinion is the only one that matters.

Whats really troubling is how willing people like Burns are to support groups that threaten the Publics Wildlife via crap policy. Really odd considering that without good populations of big-game his livelihood wouldnt exist.

If my living relied on strong numbers of big-game, I sure as hell wouldnt be siding with ANY group that has worked for 10 years to destroy it. As a recreational hunter, I wont support it.

In particular when a solution to the problem is very easy. Drop the dual classification, which would immediately give WY a court approved plan to satisify the EIS, largely the same as MT and ID's plan.

Then the State of Wyoming has the ability to implement management...including taking the current predator zone and running a trophy wolf hunt 365 day a year on wolves. Did you notice how easy it was for Montana to extend its wolf season about a week ago? I wonder why that is? Hmmmm????

Until Wyoming puts up an approved plan, wolves will continue to enjoy largely unfettered growth and full protection under the ESA.

Its that simple.

What Wyoming can expect, now that the Lummis rider has been rejected, is more and more litigation. Only difference is, the wolf hippies now have ONE state to focus their lawsuits, time and money on...WYOMING.

Its fine to bluff at a pot in poker when you're holding rags...and I dont mind that Wyoming bluffed with the dual classification.

If it would have passed the courts...great!

The problem with bluffing is when someone else has the "nuts"...and in this case the Feds definitely have the full house. Wyoming has shown their rags...and they havent been smart enough to fold.

The "chips" in this game is the publics big-game. Thats why the WWC and their chronies are so willing to continue to play with rags...they have nothing to lose...no flesh in the game. They're playing with MY PUBLIC WILDLIFE as the chips.

Time to fold, keep the few remaining chips you have and play another hand...this current one is a sure loser. The only ones suffering for it are Wyomings Hunters and Wyomings big-game...and thats just unacceptable.

DrHJH,

Funny how it was you that has been blaming everyone else from �The State of Wyoming� to Stockgrowers to the Woolgrowers for this problem when it was the Feds that reintroduced the wolf.

There is simply no creditable evidence we would have been hunting wolves for 10 years if Wyoming would have just caved in and capitulated.

In point of fact the USFWS did not delist the wolf, for the first time, until Feb of 2008. You assertions that we could have been hunting for 10 yrs is simply revisionist history.

It took the Testor/Simpson rider and the specific language �shall not be subject to judicial review� to even let ID and MT hunt under the trophy Status this year. Anyone can read Malloy�s decision and see he would have stopped the hunts this year but for that language in the rider attached to the appropriations bill.

Had nothing to do with anything scientific just political maneuvering.

Buzzy�s assertions that the �courts� have found Wyoming�s plans unscientific are again a complete lie. Show us the decision by any court that supports your statement and not just a preliminary injunction by Malloy, a real decision.

As I pointed out in a previous post Buzzy simply does not understand or feels guilty for his support of the wolf reintroduction and is looking for a scapegoat.

Johnie,

There is credible evidence...why did MT and ID have a season in 2009 while Wyoming sat on the sidelines?

Why are MT and ID again having seasons in 2011/12 while Wyoming is still pissing up a rope?

MT and ID have had USFWS and court approved plans since 1996-97, Wyoming still doesnt have an accepted plan. Now it appears that many in the Wyoming state delegation on are the verge of pulling the plug in the 2012 legislative session, even Lummis said she'd pull the plug on it:

Lummis said that if she were a Wyoming state lawmaker now, having no protection against lawsuits would give her pause about whether to approve the wolf deal.

�It was a huge defeat for common sense,� she said.

Legislators had conflicting views about whether keeping the Wyoming wolf deal open to judicial review would affect whether the Legislature passes the wolf agreement during next year�s budget session.

House Speaker Ed Buchanan, R-Torrington, said he expects lawmakers will be �cautious� about approving the deal and said that some legislators may argue for keeping the status quo. Buchanan himself said he�ll look at why opponents of the deal are objecting to it and the likelihood of a lawsuit before deciding how to vote on it himself.


http://trib.com/news/state-and-regi...0247776-7544-5bd5-9f21-d01c45f8f394.html

Molloys ruling clearly set legal precedence that Wyomings plan was unacceptable.

Lummis and now some of the State delegation are pissing down both legs on what they should do...since as the same article stated:

�This is a different situation than when you had Baucus and Tester doing it,� Snape said. �And Wyoming, arguably, missed the boat.�

Thats perhaps the understatement of this whole issue...Wyoming didnt even make it to the dock.

Finally Johnie, anyone with a single firing brain cell knows that Wyoming has screwed the pooch on this whole wolf issue. The reason is that the WY stockgrowers, BGF, WYSFW, and Harriet Hagemann sold sportsmen and Wyomings wildlife down the river.

I understand why you drag up red herrings....the truth stings pretty bad.

The rules are, you have to be able to show you can curtail the season if too many wolves are shot. Since classifying them as predators doesn't allow for that, no plan that makes them predators to be shot on sight could be approved. That's why Wyoming's plan was unacceptable.
You are correct that the feds brought wolves to Wyoming, and Buzz is correct that most of the folks who commented, from places outside Wyoming, who by the way also own the federal land in Wyoming and are entitled to comment, were in favor of the reintroduction. They weren't going to have to deal with the problems created, so why would they care? This was partly to help control elk and bison in Yellowstone so the Park Service wouldn't have to deal with habitat problems caused by too many elk, and I always suspected in part hoping wolves would reduce herds where elk were fed to the point no feeding was necessary.
That doesn't change the fact the wolf plan would have been accepted by the feds ten years ago if wolves had been made trophy game animals and the groups I mentioned hadn't decided to fight. So here we are nearly a dozen years after the original Game and Fish Department recommendation with a plan on a "fast track", I believe the newspaper said. Meanwhile, wolves have been protected and allowed to go anywhere they want. Brilliant!