Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire War with Iran?

Straight Shooter/Blaine:

Good posts from both of you. This issue can and will be discussed for many years but bottom line, we had to know. We had to know if they had WMD's....we had to know. Anything less would have been unacceptable. Nothing that we could afford to guess about. Since the rest of the world believed they were there, they probably were and as Straight Shooter suggest, were shipped out prior to the war....don't know.

It's so easy to develop poor memories and forget about the situation we were faced with THEN. Easy to "second guess" now that we're two years down the road. Look at the situation as it existed when the decisions were made. That's the only way to be fair. I don't care who's making the decisions..Republicans or Democrats, which by the way all voted for this action. I for one am proud of the fact that we had a President that was willing to go after the threat before it came to us...better than ignoring it and hoping it would go away like was done with the Cole bombing, the 1st World Trade Center bombing, etc. I believe that as long as they were being ignored and not dealt with, they would continue to get more brazen and we'd suffer more in the long run. It's not an easy sutuation...can't change these kinds of things over night, wish we could.


Elwood

I dont see how we can avoid it eventually (war with Iran and/or Syria). I think we're hoping to be able to put it off until Iraq is somewhat stabilized before we launch into another theater of war and tangle with a much bigger threat.

It's a huge mess and I dont know what easy answer there is. The arabs hate us and will screw us any way they can and I think those days are now at hand. This is the calm before the storm. Iraq is just the prelude to it all unfortunately and will pale in comparison to what is around the corner...

If you dont have a vehicle that gets about 40+ mpg you'd better look at finding one, cuz you'll look back and dream about the "good ole days" when gas was only $3 a gallon!

"Good posts from both of you. This issue can and will be discussed for many years but bottom line, we had to know. We had to know if they had WMD's....we had to know. Anything less would have been unacceptable. Nothing that we could afford to guess about. Since the rest of the world believed they were there, they probably were and as Straight Shooter suggest, were shipped out prior to the war....don't know."


That's exactly right fellas, how anyone can be shocked that there were no WMD's in Iraq is amazing to me. WE SPENT 6 MONTHS OR MORE TELLING THEM WE'RE COMING TO FIND THEM!!! Do you really think they'd still be there??? That's like the DEA announcing to a drug cartel that they've got a search warrant and will be serving it in 6 months if they're not allowed to come in to search for the drugs. Do you see the absurdity of all that?

Those weapons got scurried out of Iraq during that "warning" period we gave them for months when we didn't have the balls to just go in and search like we should have.

Saddam had them in the past, used them in the past, numerous intelligence sources SAID he has them and he acted as though he had somethign to hide. Are we that naive that we should just ignore all that?

The argument that the WMD's not being there proves we were wrong is utterly devoid of logic. In those 6 months of hand-wringing we let them slip accross into Syria and Iran folks. They will be used against us one day in the future now...

Arizona,

Good old days when oil was only $3.00 a gallon?

Are you admitting it IS about the oil?

280don,

Invariably oil plays a part in it, as much as we hate to admit that how can we deny it? Yes our own physical safety is and was threatened, hence our going on the offensive. However the issue of oil cannot be denied as being a factor.

Can you imagine if oil supplies were cut off or greatly reduced? That would utterly shut this country down - far more effectively than any nuclear bomb could do in fact. This country, and the civilized world itself, runs on oil. Everything has to do with transportation of goods and items here and there and people travelling here and there. The only people not massively influenced by oil supplies and prices are those who live in stoneage conditions.

It's not politically correct for congress or the president to say it, but it's got to be a factor IMHO...

Thank you Arizona! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Finally an honest man! Frankly I have no objection to making war with any of the countries
mentioned. They are indeed terrorist states, and need to
be addressed as such. I'd like a little payback from when
Iran held americans hostage when the peanut farmer ran things! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I just think we need to drop the hypocricy, free ourselves
from terrorism and confiscate the damn oil! Hell we
confiscate guns, trucks, houses etc, at home due to the war
on drugs. Why change policy mid-stream just because
it's overseas?!

Why are we so concerned about public relations. Most nations don't like us anyway. Let's use their oil to finance the war on terrorism! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

280don,

IMHO I think we should run and operate Iraq's oil operations until every dollar we've spent has been recovered. Yes, we'll rebuild their infrastructure and get them on their feet, but it should be with THEIR money not ours. Gas in the USA should be $1 a gallon until we've recovered the massive cost of all this.

They brought this upon themselves, not us. If you allow your government to become a rogue terrorist state and it has to get it's butt kicked to stop it, then guess what? YOU will pay for that to be done. I'd confiscate it all until we recover our losses...

If other nations saw some muscle-flexing instead of meally-mouthed whining and hand wringing we'd not have to be doing all this. This world operates by the aggressive use of force. Liberals hate to admit that and refuse to see it, but the rest of the world knows it. We're too soft and they dont respect us due to that softness. Yes we still have the biggest stick in the world, but if we used it more swiftly and decisively I think we'd find that we would need it LESS often in the long run.

The UN is the biggest joke on the planet... We should pull out of it and it will collapse in a week. They're useless without our help, power and money. It's infested with communists and dictators, how on earth do we ally ourselves with such a group???

God help us all...

What ever happened to the good old Populist theory of "America first?"

I'm with you and Desertrat, Arizona! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

War retribution has never fostered a long and lasting peace. Just look at what Wilson wasn't able to do after WWI when the French striped Germany and fostered a political/social/economic environment that facilitated Adolph Hitler's rise to power.

How would taxing the Iraqi people for their fair share of the US' investment in post-Hussein Iraq be in any way fair and just?

Did the Iraqi people ask for our help to expel the Hussein Administration? No, they didn't. Did the UN sanction our invasion of Iraq? No, they didn't. Did the US act unilaterally and without the broad support of a coalition of allies? Yes, we did. Is it any wonder that the Arab man on the street hates the US? If not for our actions in Iraq, then for our unconditional support of Israel.

JMO

Jeff

That posting was not particularly aimed at 260Remguy, but directed toward "whomever the shoe fits.."

That is a good point. also don't forget about the poor Cuban boy and how he was taken by gun point from his relatives when his mother died to bring him to America for Freedom.

These are issues we do need to deal with and correct.


"Since you brought christianity into the mix, failing to
correct our own problems with government sanctioned murder before looking abroad, is called HYPOCRICY!"

What are you refering to about government sponsored murder? Abortion?

[color:"blue"] [/color]

Much of that has to do with the leadership at the time. We the voters have much to say and answer for on this one. We are too caught up on Political parties than to do what is right. It is not so much government as it is our choice oif Governement.

[color:"blue"] [/color] :


[color:"blue"] [/color] They seem to do alright for themselves. Yet we do have a responsibility to them seeing that they are at this time the only true democracy in the middle East.

[color:"blue"] [/color] The world (hates us because we are successfull. Our system works and thier systems don't. There was a study conducted by boston University about a year ago that asked this question. Why do they hate us? The answere surprised me. Many who have never met an american thought we were an imoral country. Why would they think that if most never met an american? The answer seemed to be because of the perception of americans, that they got from movies on holywood, which mostly paints a different picture from the real life here.

It is about oil to a certain extent, but not the way the liberals are screaming about. The oil isn't abut us taking it. It is about the arabs using it to control the west.

I spent a few years as an airborne, ranger, infantry officer with duty on the ground in the Middle East, so I take no offense from anyone, except from people who I respect, after all this is the internet. I support the troops 100%, however I sincerely believe that the Bush Administration was 100% wrong to invade Iraq without Iraq possing a clear and present danger to the US. If we hadn't invaded Iraq, we might have finished the job in Afghanistan by now. As it is, niether job is close to being finished.

JMO

Jeff

Thank you for your service to our Country, and you may have a point about Afgahnistan. WMD's will eventually be found in Syria (Maybe visible through the glass floor of the area). But, seriously, I believe that al-Qaeda was put on the DEFENSIVE and distracted from their OFFENSIVE posture by taking action in their back yard. Obviously not the views of many, but I am firmly in the corner of those who believe that!
Thanks for your polite response 260Remguy <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am not an American and I have grave doubts about the situation in Iraq as I think that the Middle East is an essentially "un-winnable" situation. However, the point that many of the problems that the USA encounters worldwide are a result of being perceived as "soft" and not willing to use the "big stick' is true, IMHO. When you deal with Ayatollahs, Imams, Mullahs and Commies, the ONLY approach that works is to kick ass, hard, first and frequently.

Sir Winston Chrchill said, at the close of WWII, regarding Soviet Russia, "we have killed the wrong pig" and "Blood and Guts" Patton also wanted to drive on Moscow and eliminate the major threat to the civilized world; both of these men were REAL leaders and they were right! The same situation now exists in respect of the Islamist threat and no nonsense military action is all that will contain/eliminate it. The USA and the British Commonwealth should have cleaned out the Middle East in the '50s and should not allow these cameljockies to continue to be a threat to us, no matter what. Forget the French and Germans, they are so culturally decadent that they are useless, anyway.

I consider what the FBI did at Ruby Ridge and Waco to
be government sanctioned murder! I think Jerry Spence did a pretty good job at proving that. Janet Reno made
the statement that any christian who owns a gun is terrorist!

I don't trust the american government to do the right
thing about anything any more that I would trust Ben Laden!

And I got some real news for you, we ARE an immoral country! Kute is right on too. We don't have the gonads
to be anything but PC! By the way Kute, you're more
american than most of our congress! Or the senate!

Idajo, that was a GREAT post. I fear, however, that as in the song, "There are none so blind as those who will not see," and I fear our country's FULL of them, and their numbers are increasing daily due to the abject failure of our liberal government run schools. The liberal media is the greatest problem for the masses right now, but what's going on - and HAS been going on - in our schools for the past 40 years ain't pretty, and WILL effect the future even more than the lies told daily in the media. Nobody learns history any more, and what little IS taught is a self-deprecating version that is NOT what really happened.

Howinell are our kids, the adults and leaders of tomorrow who WILL drive our Ship of State, going to navigate the unknown waters of ignorance? It's said that those who don't learn, and learn from history, are doomed to repeat it, and history is rife with examples.

All those with "feet'a clay" who ipso facto decry war in the middle east didn't learn the same lessons that our fathers and grandfathers didn't learn in the 30's when our isolationist "head in the ground" approach to foreign relations and threats in the world led to the most awful and costly war in our history - WWII.

We seem to want to make the same damnable mistakes over and over and over again!!!

The only thing that makes me hesitate to recommend turning the whole middle east into green glowing glass is that doing so would make us like those we hate ... or OUGHT to hate.

Many in this country talk of peace. In Revelations, there's a verse that says that many will be killed by peace. Ain't that funny?

Rome was so corrupt, it's amazing that it lasted as long as it did. It did so ONLY because it didn't take threats lightly, and didn't wait until the threat was large enough to REALLY threaten them. Better to pluck a weed from the garden when it's young, than to let it grow and kill the GOOD plants, but .... who's familiar any more with agrarian themes? Food grows in the back of grocery stores, and is brought forth daily to the convenient shelves and display cases where townfolk take their pick at their leisure.

Never mind that oil is used to make the fertilizers that today allieviate so many, many from having to grow their own food. How many city folk would know how to grow their own food if it ever came to that? Not many. How many set their noses in the air, purse their lips and somberly avow that they'd NEVER go to war "merely for oil?"

You know, it'll be those same, self-satisfied minions of liberal theology who'll be the FIRST to demand that food be produced WITHOUT oil, not even knowing it CAN'T be done any more - not at least without a whole lot of people, including men, women and children - STARVING TO DEATH!

We - our very LIVES - are dependent on oil, whether many know or understand or appreciate that fact. What those who avow they won't "go to war over oil" don't know is that what they're REALLY saying is that they don't want to LIVE, and worse, they're telling ME that I can't live EITHER because it offends their delicate sensibilities to "go to war over oil."

What a convolute, ignorant, self-satisfied group THAT is! They don't even have a CLUE, and yet, they're damnably PROUD of their "opinions," and don't mind foisting them off as LAW, at least in their own minds.

I fear that ignorance, egotism and sinfully corrupt neglect is doing in our nation as we speak, and I've got a good reference to support me here. Read Revelations. Uh oh! I forgot! Liberals CAN'T read Revelations! It's too politically incorrect, and "such a downer!"

Sheesh! I am so VERY tired of all the liberal dogma and crap that I could just .... and they won't even let us tar and feather them any more! Jefferson once opined that we'd probably have to expect a violent revolution in our land about once every 20 years or so if it were to survive in the form intended by the Founders. I think he was probably right. We just didn't follow through once we got all "civilized." And there's the damnable shame of it, illustrated in the dribble we hear daily, everywhere we go. Goerbels was RIGHT! Repeat lies often enough, and with enough fervor, and they WILL be believed. And the worse and more obvious the lie, the more quickly and intensely it will be believed.

Our nation was conceived and created, with Almighty God's blessing (the Founders said so if you can read the documents involved), as a "grand experiment" testing whether men could govern themselves. It's a question whose answer doesn't bode well for our future at this point in our history, and the signs of that are everywhere, for those who will but open their eyes to see.

More and more, I think of that old song, "'Till I Threw It All Away." That's my grandson's future, and I see no reason NOT to hate those who'd DO that, however politically incorrect it is to come forth and actually SAY it, or not. I just don't give a fig. That's how I feel, and I have EVERY reason to support me in this.

Nations, as people, can be killed by acts AND by inaction, or by simple unGodly neglect. Liberals developed the concept of what's politically correct and what's not so that they'd have SOME basis for attempting to silence Truths of just about every type, because Truth will always and inevitably prove them wrong on just about everything they espouse. They just want to do what they want, without interference or being posed with the actuality of their behaviors and precepts. THEY JUST DON'T CARE WHAT THE TRUTH IS, THEY WANT TO DO WHAT THEY WANT TO DO IRRESPECTIVE OF ANY AND ALL TRUTHS TO THE CONTRARY.

If THAT isn't the height of arrogance and stupidity, I just don't know what is.

There is enough oil here in North America if it really comes to a continental emergency, the Alberta "Tar Sands' is an enormous reserve and we Canucks probably still have oceans of the stuff that we have not yet even explored for, so, not to worry.

The problem really is how to eliminate the Islamist whacko terrorists, Communist monsters and divers other murderous nutbars without becoming just like them; the corollary to this is, as Don points out, the never-ending need for vigilance against the murderers of "Ruby Ridge" and we have these types here in Canada, too.

" Those who do not seek to profit from the lessons history teaches, are doomed to repeat them", Geo. Santayana, American philosopher/historian.

"Power tends to corrupt, absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely" John Edward, Baron Acton, English philosopher/historian.