Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Comancheria

Naah,

"Comanches; The destruction of a people."

I thought it one of the best books I had ever read.

Still a fine read, once you understand its a "movie" version of what really happened

Birdwatcher

'Tis a bit sanitized for family consumption ain't it Birdy.

i'm working out in the area you've been discussing. working between flatonia and moulton.

Kind of makes the scenery a little more interesting knowing about the folks who tramped over it don't it?

it sure does Boggy

Lots of blood spilt in the area. Lots around these parts too.

Oh, he's heavy enough on the torture.

My take on it is that its entirely Texan-centric and therefore slants the truth consderable. My major specific beef is that he jumbles up the 1840's as bad as he does. Really, putting Walker's Creek in 1840 rather than 1844 is just unforgivable, especially in a putative history book, and ESPECIALLY concerning the usage of something as fundamentally Texan as the Colt revolver.

Jack Hays? An exceedingly bold and admirably aggressive man, but the functional equivalent of that hero Stuka pilot in the face of incessant Indian raiding, killing and plundering. Other than that. The likes of the a Hays, McCulloch, Caldwell, Burleson and Fords and their men were relative handfuls compared to the population of Texas as a whole.

Texas had the manpower, it had the horsemen and it had the weaponry to decisively take out the Comanches but it never mustered the collective will to do so. I mean, by the 1870's the Comanche and Kiowa remnants were driving off whole herds of COWS fer chrissakes, holding up settlement of nearly half the land area of the state.

Musta come down to the fact that, from quite early on, MOST people simply didn't have to deal with Indians. As was pointed out, people would go out to round up the cows or whatever not expecting anything to happen.

By 1860 as Clark ("Frontier Defense in the Civil War") points out, out of a population of 600,000 in the state, only about 1% (5,000) actually lived on the far Indian Frontier. Seems like Indian raiders were tolerated in the same way we tolerate inner-city crime, or the drug gangs. People bitch, but most people dont percieve themselves affected.

A cynic might argue that Texans were too busy killing each other to worry about Indians and yepper, feuds were common, as were infamously lawless areas. But really, compare the response to Indians to the virtual statewide uprising that occurred with secession, and the violent passions that ensued. Tells you where the priorities of the people themselves lay.

IMHO the definitive books on the Texas Frontier are currently Harkonnen's "Comanche Empire", Mike Cox's "Wearing the Cinco Peso", and Moore's "Savage Frontier" four-book series. I'll include "Comanche Empire" mostly for its extensive treatment of the reservation period, which is otherwise generally ignored.

JMHO

Birdwatcher

One thing that I think many have overlooked is the influx of European immigrants that had absolutely no clue as to the proper handling of firearms, let alone tactics, or any knowledge of the locals. Many left Europe to escape military conscription. There arriving in Texas in the 1840's.

Sure there were the Jager and Scheutzen veriens from Germany and many of these folks had military backgrounds. But the bulk on the newbies coming in hadn't a clue. The Poles, Wends, Moravians, Czechs, even those from the British Isles. All they had been given was the hype of the speculators.

Survey the names of the the individuals you mentioned above. The descendants of these people had been in North America 150, 175, and some even 200 years prior to coming to Texas. The use of weaponry was second nature to these individuals. There's your handful!

Another thing is population centers in the republic of the 1840's was in the eastern portion of the state. Native concerns were a small matter there. The frontier that we've been discussing, for the most part, is that area 40 miles either side of the current IH 35 corridor which was sparcely populated by white folks.

BN

You have a point there BN.

"Texas had the manpower, it had the horsemen and it had the weaponry to decisively take out the Comanches but it never mustered the collective will to do so. I mean, by the 1870's the Comanche and Kiowa remnants were driving off whole herds of COWS fer chrissakes, holding up settlement of nearly half the land area of the state.

Musta come down to the fact that, from quite early on, MOST people simply didn't have to deal with Indians. As was pointed out, people would go out to round up the cows or whatever not expecting anything to happen."

As BN points out east of the Brazos by the time the frontier got hot it was all settled country. Relatively speaking heavily settled and Indians were a forgotten problem. The eastern tribes were all dead or long gone. Save for the Kronks they never were very warlike anyway. Even the Kitchi and the Kickapoo had moved on except for some stragglers.

Personal example from my family. My G-Grandfather settled in Leon county in 1855 on the same place where I live. Acording to family stories passed down that I heard my grandfather tell every fall a bunch of indians would camp on a creek about a half mile from his house. A place called the glade. Probably an extended family group and probably Baidi as there was a settlement of them down at Navasota that lasted until the 1870's.
My g-grandfather would give the "chief" a beef to eat when they came through. The indians were picking up pecans, chinquipins, hickory nuts, walnuts and harvesting/drying persimmons and would stay about a week or ten days before moving on so I was told. Never had a minutes trouble out of them nor did they ever steal anything that my folks knew of. Was said that they never knew when they would look up and see one looking in the window just watching the white people.

I know this is just anecdotal and a minute sample but I'd be willing to bet you it was the same anywhere east of the Brazos river. Indians were no problem just a nusience and the frontier was a long way off. Just like today folks tend to mind their own business and not go chasing off trying to settle other folks problems. Most especially if you are trying to scratch a living out of the ground as most folks were.

You ever get over here Birdy I'll show you the "glade". Must have been used for a long long time as I have found lots of "arrer heads" on the hills around it.

Today at Barnes and Noble, the book is on the 'special price' rack at $7.00 for a hard copy. Cheaper than the paperback.

1B

Boggy! Well written.

There was a family of Tonkawas that lived in the area just north of present Smithville, Bastrop County into the 1870's. In the area of the entrance of present day Buescher State Park. I think it was W.W. Newcomb who researched them for his book "The Indians of Texas" . They lives as anyone else in these parts did, in a cabin/frame house.

Another band of natives that survived in these parts were up in Lee county north of the Giddings/ Carmine area. One family unit, lived in a dugout type cabin. Texas Archaeological Society excavated the remains of this place in the early 1950's.

As mentioned by many other contemporary writers of the day, those that held out were generally absorbed into the existing Hispanic communities, beginning in the 1840's.

These folks were of an assortment of linguistic groups, Attakapan, Saha, and Cohuilatecan, for examples.

I'll have folks know I don't take invites from the 24hr crowd lightly, and they are much appreciated

Back to the fight...

Plum Creek is a major event in Texan history, and as such much is easily accessible about it, for example the actual first-person accounts posted online.

After Plum Creek the narratives become harder to find again, for these later events I am once again indebted to Moore ("Savage Frontier") for his exaustive citing and quoting of original source material. Moore's books are the next best thing to going to the collections and looking up originals for oneself.

The response to the Great Linville Raid on the part of the Texas Government was swift, 1840 being the year perhaps where the Texans came closest actually waging active war against the Comanche Nation. From Moore...

Felix Huston, correctly perceiving that the Comanches were on the run, proposed to President Lamar that a militia expedition be dispatched into Comanche country immediately to finish the chastisement of the Indians. Lamar rejected this proposal, likely because of his animosity towards Huston.

A couple of months later (October), Huston finally won approval to lead an expedition of 1,600 men, him requesting that volunteers show up with half a bushel of "cold flour" for himself, as well as sacks to carry corn for the horses and a hundred rounds of ammunition.

Despite touring the settlements looking for volunteers, Huston had little success, apparently the court of popular opinion placed little faith in his Indian-fighting abilities. A prominent Texan James Harper Starr wrote...

Huston will return without having slain twenty Indians.

Actually, 1,600 men, if well-guided and well-led, split into separate columns, might have been able to strike devastating blows. The attempt at raising this huge force however came to nothing, 1,600 men was an astronimical figure for such and undertaking at that time and place, and Moore has it that Huston was unwilling to countenance less.

So passed perhaps the only proposal in Texas history for an all-out offensive war on the Comanches by Texans (when the deed was finally done it would be the Feds what did it, about thirty-five years later). Perhaps the likes of an Edward Burleson might have been able to raise something like those numbers but he had resigned his commission the day after his return from Plum Creek, citing the need to devote attention to family matters.

Meanwhile, Major George Howard, Colonel of the Texas First Regiment and Mayor of San Antonio, was ordered out on a grand and ambitious sweep of Indian country; to proceed westward nearly to present-day Uvalde and then head north to the headwaters of the Colorado River.

The indefagitable Matthew Caldwell volunteered, just over a month after Plum Creek with a company of thirty-four Gonzales men, many of whom had also been at that fight. I dunno the state of Caldell's domestic affairs but one is left with the conclusion that the guy just loved being in the field, active as he was.

John R. Cunnigham of San Antonio, who had last ventured out and fought an engagement in July (earlier in this thread) raised twenty-one volunteers while Captain Salvadore Flores, also of San Antonio, recruited thirteen Tejanos. The addition of First Regiment men raised the total force to one hundred eighty men.

This force left San Antonio about October 1st, and would remain in the field for six weeks.

Birdwatcher

Off subject, but one of the most interesting things I ran across was from Henri Joutel's Journal of 1685. When one of La Salle's parties of exploration (including La Salle) were traveling west of the site of Fort St. Louis, they ran into a party of Jumano Indians on their way to one of the big trade fairs. Probably the one up by the site of Monument Hill outside present day La Grange, Texas. They were mistaken for Spaniards, as they rode on Spanish barbs, mounted with Spanish saddles. While the indians were all wearing Spanish clothing. These fellas were from out in the Pecos country!!!!!

One wonders if there were a bunch of dead Spanish guys laying out there somewhere, without clothes or horses...

No, these guys worked and traded with the Spaniards. Remember the Mendoza Expedition traveled from present El Paso to around the area of San Angelo in the 1683. All this in the future area of Comancheria. They were searching for thesource of the fresh water pearls of the Concho river. It's an extremely interesting read. I gave my translation to the young son who was working on his Masters thesis at the time.

Bolton translated Mendoza's journal about 1908. Try these links;
http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/fdo52
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-122260256.html

Jumanos were to be a buffer for Apaches.

The old Indian trade routes would be one hell of an interesting study but I don't know how it could be done or if anyone has ever attempted it.
Take the famous San Antonio road which is just south of me @3 miles.

It would be foolish to think that when the Spaniards first traveled it from Mexico into what is now Louisiana they just struck off across the country in some general direction. Dollar to a donut they were following Indian trails with local guides who knew parts of it.

All the rivers and streams that had to be crossed and there are only certain places to ford easily. If the Spaniards just hit a river, say the Brazos, willy nilly they would waste a few days trying to find a crossing. Indians knew where the fords were.

Actually the Spanish were ordered by the Viceroy of New Spain to use the established Indian trade routes. They were specifically told NOT to blaze any new routes. And yes there have been several studies done. Primarily by Herbert Eugene Bolton back at the turn of the 20th century,and more recently by folks like Al McGraw and John Clark. Back in the late 90's TxDOT published an extremely large study on the Camino REALS! Yes plural. It is still in print and still available!

The actual "San Antonio Road" as you mentioned were a series of routes that were totally dependent on the time of year they could be traveled. Weather conditions played in importantly. Remember the Spanish exploration and on into the 19th century was during a 500 year phenomenon known as as "The Little Ice Age", which many believe ended in the 1850's. Below San Antonio de Bejar, there have been identified three specific routes.

And several elsewhere between Bejar and Presidio Los Adaes in western Louisiana.

We forget today just how long the Spanish were in the Southwest. They basically spent 300 years there. That is a lot of time for explorers, traders, deserters, and missionaries to get around. We probably only really know of fraction of the evnts that took place there in that span of time. There are thousands of legends of Spanish gold and whatnot all through the country, and undoubtedly, some of them are true. And the French were in many of these places for almost as long as well.

As for the roads, I think both Indians and Spaniards alike followed buffalo wallows and trails as much as anything. I know of one buffalo trail that runs across our land that can be followed of and on for at least ten miles. The average person would never know what it is. It is just a depression with sloping sides with no creek in the bottom. But imagine it 250 years ago when it would have been a wide path trodden by thousands of hoofs for centuries cutting through impenetrable woods and prairies for miles on end.

When my Dad was a boy, he found this old dagger under a huge old cottonwood tree in their front yard. It said something like "Valerie" on one side and "Deere" on the other. It was completely cast in bronze. Mom and Dad have it framed in a picture frame and hanging up in their house. Most unusual. They always thought it was Spanish for some reason.

I've got depressions in the prairie grass on my land. I've always figured they were old Buffalo wallows.

After the Massacre of the Spanish padres at the Mission de San Saba in 1757 (abt 4 miles east of present Menard Tx.) by the "Nortenos", a french trader obtained the sacrements from this mission at the Taovaya village on the Red River. He turned them in to the commandant of the French garrison, Post des Nachitos (Ft. St. Jean Baptiste) at present day Natchitoches, La. I believe they were then sent 15 miles east to the Spanish Presidio at San Pilar de Los Adaes. Then the colonial capital of Texas.

The illegal trade in deerskins, horses, and wild cattle from Texas fostered by the French, made several men very rich. The Spanish commandant at Presidio Los Adaes tolerated the illegal trade to some extent. Due to their location, shipments from Mexico were sparse to say the least. Most soldados were paid in tobacco. The Spanish depended on the French for re-supply and the French were more that willing to sell to them! At one point when one Spanish commandant tried to enforce Spanish embargos on the goods, the Caddo in east Texas were ready to wipe the tiny garrison off the earth. Had not Louis Juchereau de St. Denis, French commandant from Natchitoches, stepped in and talked the Caddo out of this action. St. Denis was double dipping from both the Spanish, and the Caddo!

The French pretty much had free reins in the area of Texas north of present IH 10 from the Sabine to present San Antonio. Then up the IH 35 corridor all the way to the Red River. The Mallet brothers even went as far as Santa Fe (from Natchitoches!) in the 1740's trying to set up a trade route there. They were immediately arrested, goods confiscated, and after a while released with words never to return......

More later on the Talon brothers. IMHO the most interesting adventure story to come out of colonial Texas!!!!!!!!!!

BN