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Joined: Feb 2012
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2012
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I have never owned a .40, and like Cole....really have no desire to. It was and is a cartridge designed to bridge the gap between the 9mm and .45ACP and it has done exactly that. It is probably perfect for LE because you get better stopping power, without the extra weight and bulky-ness of the .45. I am a fan of larger caliber, more knockdown power and therefore, I love the .45 and I would have to agree with Cole again that there really isin't a cool .40SW gun out there IMO
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
-Thomas Jefferson
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005 |
I thought it was kinda obvious that the usage of the term "boring" was over-the-top hyperbole to stimulate discussion. I don't really consider it boring except in the sense that I've just never worked up enough interest to buy one.
I got it. I was just puttin' more of a spin on it. To stimulate discussion, as you say. I don't hold much with Sanow as Marshall seemed to be doing okay until they hooked up, but I seem to recall Sanow's extrapolated Stopping Indices showing the expected stops for the 10 being near, well at statistically, 100% for certain loads. This is exactly the same as the .44 Mag. in some loads. Towards the end of his study it seems though, that the 10 had enough stops to be ranked. I don't remember where it was at though. I'm not sure the mathematical extrapolations are of any value at all. The published summaries of their basic data are the only part of the M&S project that I've had any interest in. I only mentioned M&S because someone mentioned them earlier in the thread. If I were carrying a 40 for potential social interactions, it would be the lightest bullets that were constructed adequately and were accurate and reliable with the highest velocity possible. Well, I've got more real-world experience with the 180 gr loads rather than the 165's, and I like it a lot. I can't feel any appreciable difference in recoil between them, and both are accurate enough, and both loads have done very good work in OIS's. The 180's are more popular among police because they punch through intermediate barriers and still expand better than the 165's do. Cops have to shoot through stuff more often than self-defending citizens do, though. Bottom line, I wouldn't argue with your ammo choice at all.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 13,550
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 13,550 |
It was and is a cartridge designed to bridge the gap between the 9mm and .45ACP and it has done exactly that. Actually, there was no design involved at all. The 10mm was shortened to eliminate unused case capacity. Most handgun cartriges are boring, and probably all semi-auto cartridges. That's why it's best to focus mainly on the platform.
Forgive me my nonsense, as I also forgive the nonsense of those that think they talk sense.
Robert Frost
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 10,813 Likes: 2
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 10,813 Likes: 2 |
I love my 40's! I shoot a bigger bullet than a 9mm and have more capacity that a 45acp in a 9mm package that is easy to carry! The 40 has proven itself to be an adequate fight stopper among the popular calibers that are available.
The Customs Border Patrol used the 155 Remington Jacketed bullet and had plenty success neutralizing drug runners and other armed threats they encountered. The CBP was recognized at one time and probably still is as the agency that was involved in more gunfights in a years time than other agencies combined! Guns and Ammo had a article several years back speaking about the 40 which was a decent article.
Police Officers that can't qualify with the 40 is a training issue and not a caliber one! The ones that qualified with the 9mm probably were on the verge of failing with that caliber as well, just a hunch as most police officers are not gun enthusiast and shoot only because they are made to shoot annually or bi annually?
The 10mm hasn't left yet since the FBI uses some of the 10mm's in H K UMP's but it probably will not make it back as a LE round, more of a specific use, like Hostage Rescue or a Task Force may request them.
Most Federal agencies I have seen carry the 40! If I had a 9mm, 45, 357 magnum, ect and practiced and had confidence and familiarity in my weapon that I would not run out and buy the newest craze.
Most gunfights are decided by a little luck, who gets the shots off first, who hits first, and shot placement.
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 28,241 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 28,241 Likes: 1 |
Isn't it? I mean, it's a fine cartridge. Most people no longer put much stock in Evan Marshall's stopping power survey, but the last I knew, the 40 had eclipsed even the .357 Mag. for the top spot. It may have even eclipsed the 9mm as the most popular cartridge amongst Law Enforcement agencies. How could it be boring?
I gotta admit, I've never even owned one. I think it's a great cartridge, but I just have never felt the need let alone the want. I've had quite a few 10's and I think it's clear the 10 is better ballistics-wise. But the 40 has real advantages over the 10 that have made it more popular.
Lately I've been thinking about getting a 40 just because I've never had one and also because the cartridge is very available and relatively cheap. I find myself looking for 10's though and forgetting about the 40. I guess the ballistics of the 10 are just sexier. I've had lots of .44 Mags yet I still look at and drool over Specials and Russians. Same with 357's and 38's. I guess the 40 came out in good and serviceable guns that to me, aren't that cool whereas the .38 and .44 Specials are chambered in guns that (again to me anyway) ooze coolness. Colt Official Police revolvers and Officer's Model Match's. Smith Triple Locks and even Colt Peacemakers. In the 40, a 4006 or the like just doesn't get me going that much. A 1006, virtually the same gun, does, but that's because the ballistics are superior.
Likewise, in the past, everytime I'd go to get a .40 I'd think, "I've already got the 9mm dies though. Why not just get the 9 instead and not have to buy more dies?".
Does it make sense? I dunno, but I know I've resisted my own attempts to get a 40 thus far. I got one I could sell you, I'm bored with it.
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 16,000
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 16,000 |
You guys ain't making me want to own one of these very badly. lol I agree with you ballistics-wise on the 38-40. I do consider it to be a good cartridge and I have owned several examples, but haven't shot it extensively at all. Now don't say much more about the 38-40 or you're going to have me looking for one.  one of the pistols i have is a ruger blackhawk with the 7 3/4tube. I bought it cheap and it is a buckeye shooters ruger with the .38/40 cyclinder. Was missing the 10mm cyclinder and had ruger make one up for me. now putting a 200grain xtp at 1200fps through a glock is one thing, firing the same round in the blackhawk with the long tube is another. I originally bought it because of the .38/40. I have two colt S.A.A.'s, first generation bisley's in 38.40 both now retired. One dates back to the turn of the century here in arizona, the other same thing in oklahoma. Both are "blood" guns, a long long time ago. My fascination with that cartridge started at about age six, when my father let me shoot the bisley. Scared the poop out of me, which was probably his intent. But still a fine old cartridge. As i am getting older and retrgressing more, lately i have been fascinated with a 280grain hollowing point out of a .45 at about 1100fps. If they could just put that in a auto i would like.
THE BIRTH PLACE OF GERONIMO
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Joined: Oct 2007
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2007
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Cheap ammo, affordable used guns out there--lots of them. Find myself shooting alot more than I did a couple years back, and it's usually a 40. That's not a bad thing.
So, you want talked into or out of the 40?
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284
Campfire Kahuna
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OP
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284 |
Cheap ammo, affordable used guns out there--lots of them. Find myself shooting alot more than I did a couple years back, and it's usually a 40. That's not a bad thing.
So, you want talked into or out of the 40? lol I dunno. Crap, Ron's about talked me into a 38-40. Doesn't help that an old boy had one up in Topeka awhilst back at a gunshow. Seems it was about $1400. Brand new SAA.
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Joined: Dec 2002
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,274 |
The .40 seems to be boring, unless you screw up, in which case it's overly exciting  I've tinkered with a Glock 22, and a .40 cal Double Eagle Commander(a rare bird). The .40 worked fine with both of them, although the DE actually worked better with 10mm Magazines. I have one of the Colt Combat Elite limited editions in 10mm/.40 cal, but have never shot the .40 barrel. I've also shot my brother's Kahr in .40 Cal - with the plastic frame. "boring" is defintely not the term I would use 
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,982 Likes: 6
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,982 Likes: 6 |
Never owned a 40 since I have several 1911's in 45 ACP/Super. No need to regress
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 21,700 Likes: 3
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 21,700 Likes: 3 |
I agree absolutely, Ron. Reloading for the .40 is worth paying attention to. The cartridge is definitely a high pressure proposition. I shot a fair number of handloads through a G23, 27 and 35. Never had any issues, but I backed 'em off a bit, velocity wise, just to be sure. I've only loaded for it a bit, but I have seen a few blown cases in unsupported chambers that blew extractors, and the like. They were commercial reloads, not mine. I think that not red lining the .40 S&W is a good idea, depending on what kind of pistol you are running them through. Joel
"The number one problem with America is, a whole lot of people need shot, and nobody is shooting them."
-Master Chief Hershel Davis
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 16,000
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 16,000 |
Cheap ammo, affordable used guns out there--lots of them. Find myself shooting alot more than I did a couple years back, and it's usually a 40. That's not a bad thing.
So, you want talked into or out of the 40? lol I dunno. Crap, Ron's about talked me into a 38-40. Doesn't help that an old boy had one up in Topeka awhilst back at a gunshow. Seems it was about $1400. Brand new SAA. that colt bisley 38.40 has two inscriptions scratched in the inside of the grip. A man's name and Yuma, az. 1914. And on the other side, this gun killed a grizzley, santa (rita)from memory, mountains mexico, two shots 50 yards. It also center punched a guy on whiskey row in prescott in the 30's. Nobody ever heard of a .40 then. The other .38/40 was used in the 30's by one indian to kill another indian. Pretty much did the job. The first one has a hair trigger, and the 1800's leather holster is cut out for the trigger and trigger guard to be exposed. Somebody at one time meant business with it.
Last edited by RoninPhx; 02/27/12.
THE BIRTH PLACE OF GERONIMO
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Joined: Oct 2005
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 16,000 |
another thing now that i am thinking about it. When i was a kid hardly anybody, meaning the adults, had automatics, mostly it was the S.A.A.'s people carried. But they are real fast drawing, and i knew people that could knock things out of the air from a holstered position when starting. They were real quick and accurate.
I think sometimes we loose something in the spray and pray routine.
THE BIRTH PLACE OF GERONIMO
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,276
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2006
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Boring like the , 30-30 & the 30-06 & the 270 win & the 38 Spl. & like the 357 Mag....so un-problematic ,so efficient so predictable
just boring....hmmmm...ZZzz
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,412 Likes: 6
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,412 Likes: 6 |
A Glock 22 40sw with 800X and 200 gr and good case support is like a Handi rifle 45/70 with 4895 and 405 gr.
Work up until you can't take the recoil.
Then work back down until you can take the recoil.
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. -Ernest Hemingway
The man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything.-- Edward John Phelps
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,407
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,407 |
I have 40/10mm switch barrel Para 16-40 that is a very fine shooter. Bigger than it needs to be for a 40 but ideal for a 10, especially when loaded with 16. I find I shoot the 40 barrel far more than the 10. That said, I am partial to the 38 WCF and have it in an OM Ruger Flattop as well as a Ruger Buckeye. In works is a 4" N-frame that will be the cats meow.
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 21,700 Likes: 3
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 21,700 Likes: 3 |
A few years back, Ruger made a special run of the Vaquero with two cylinders. One in 40 S&W and the other in .38-40. I wish like the dickens I had picked one of those up before they got gone.
"The number one problem with America is, a whole lot of people need shot, and nobody is shooting them."
-Master Chief Hershel Davis
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
You're not the only one... I wish they'd do another run.
The .40 S&W is no different than any other popular cartridge. Guys that use it a lot find that it works really well and end up sticking with it.
Travis
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 15
New Member
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New Member
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 15 |
I've owned a Springfield XD40 (very nice firearm). I have two S&W 629 .44's, and they are awesome in terms of accuracy and power, a bit hard on the wallet and wrist. I had a Taurus .41 Titanium revolver, and it shot way better than the 40, but has the same caveats as the .44. I've also had a couple of .45 ACP's, sold the .40, and went back to them with my Taurus 24/7 Compact. In favor of the 40 is ammo price. I haven't tried any weapon on humans and hope and pray I never have to. I find raccoons and porcupines to be a pretty good cartridge test. Neither are particularly impressed with the .40, although they usually come around to your way of thinking if you fire enough rounds and/or are patient. The .40 shoots similar to a .45, but the .45 makes a much better impression on varmints. I shoot all factory ammo so far and have tried a lot of different rounds. In the end, it's your choice, if you're looking for an auto, the .45 or 10 is more powerful, the 10 is more accurate, but the 40 shoots OK and is cheap to run.
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Joined: Feb 2002
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 7,203 Likes: 1 |
I have shot a couple of coyotes with the .40 S& W...155g Winchester Silver tips commercial ammo.
This ammo blows sizable holes on the off side of a coyote...nuff said. I am not shooting holes through car doors, nor windshields.
IMO, 45 kicks less than the 40 S&W.
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