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#6254895 - 03/05/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: logcutter]
Mauser_Hunter Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 09/28/11
Posts: 4195
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: logcutter
This is a heck of a testimonial of the .223 on Elk.To bad it was a poacher....

JACKSON MAN CHARGED WITH FELONY AND 11 MISDEMEANORS FOR POACHING 11 ELK

JACKSON &#65533; One felony and 11 misdemeanor charges have been filed against a Jackson man for allegedly killing 11 elk Nov. 24, 2003 in the Gros Ventre River drainage northeast of Jackson. Elliot Hudson, 20, could serve up to 21 years in prison and jail if given the maximum combined sentence for the 12 charges.

This poaching incident that unfolded near the Red Hills campground is one of the most egregious Jackson Game and Fish Department officers have ever experienced. At noon that day, a nearby witness heard several rifle shots and saw 13 elk, three of which were wounded, running from an area where he had seen a dark green Jeep Cherokee. The individual reported the incident to G&F officials who found Hudson and his Jeep Cherokee at the scene.

Jackson Game Warden Bill Long found several .223 caliber shells on the ground and 11 dead elk within 35 to 150 yards of the road.



Jayco


Three that were wounded says it all. Thanks for posting that.


Edited by Mauser_Hunter (03/05/12)
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#6254981 - 03/05/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: Mauser_Hunter]
logcutter Offline
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Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 5762
Loc: Central Idaho
My gawd..What rifle "Won't" wound an Elk?

Jayco

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#6255204 - 03/05/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: logcutter]
Mauser_Hunter Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 09/28/11
Posts: 4195
Loc: Colorado
Some do it easier than others.
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#6255242 - 03/05/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: Mauser_Hunter]
logcutter Offline
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Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 5762
Loc: Central Idaho
I think everyone focus's on .22,not the expanded width after impact...You show me penetration for your .50 round ball into ballistic gel that exceeds 16"...Show me....

This is 5 Federal Fusions(.223) shot into ballistic gel and penetrated 15" with an expansion to .54 caliber.The .458(out of a 450 Marlin) 400 grain Swift A-frame only penetrated 17".



Show me some data on muzzleloader penetration depth with a .490 ish round ball.

Jayco

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#6255296 - 03/05/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: logcutter]
Mauser_Hunter Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 09/28/11
Posts: 4195
Loc: Colorado
So, your little bullet expands to where my bullet starts?

I'm not impressed. My round ball reaches the far side hide. Enough penetration for me. Dead elk without destroying meat.

I used a 30-30 most of my hunting career, because my dad gave me the gun when I was 10 years old. It worked, and I saw no reason to change.

Awhile back I got into muzzleloaders. I find them a lot of fun to shoot, and I like the idea of hunting as our forefathers did. Plus the ML season is during the rut. Not a bad time to hunt.

Those are my reasons for using the guns I use. What are yours for handicapping yourself with such a small bullet?
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#6255335 - 03/05/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: Mauser_Hunter]
logcutter Offline
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Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 5762
Loc: Central Idaho
So if you hunted most of your life with the 30-30,you must appreciate the penetration it gives....

By an NRA contractor...

When robustly constructed bullets like the Barnes TSX, Nosler Partition and Fusion are used inside 150 yards, penetration with the .223 Remington is on par with cartridges like the .243 and the .30-30 Winchester.

Nuff said.

Jayco

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#6255419 - 03/05/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: logcutter]
Mauser_Hunter Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 09/28/11
Posts: 4195
Loc: Colorado
I never get an answer to my question. Why do you restrict yourself with a small bullet?

My reason is i'm not restricting myself through my gun. I restrict myself with only still hunting in deep timber. My shots are close and always double lung shots. The guns I use are all I need.

Do you hunt the same way? Why not use a bigger bullet that would give you more range, and the option to take angled shots?

I'm not busting your chops now, or anybody else who uses a .223. I'm really interested. Is it the challenge? The light recoil? The only gun you own? What?
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#6255483 - 03/05/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: Mauser_Hunter]
logcutter Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 5762
Loc: Central Idaho
Restricting yourself to a small bullet is like shooting a solid or a hardcast that does not expand..A .223 expands to a caliber size larger than all pistol calibers and 99% of rifle calibers using a non expanding bullet.

I have Elk hunted since I was 2 years old and started shooting at 10 with my first Elk at 11(memory)..Elk hunting does not mean what it used to to me..I enjoy getting out/teaching my kids and seeing game but lately it is just me and the wife and I don't get down and dirty after them like I used to,not because I can't, but because I really don't want to anymore.

Yeah,I am going to hunt with the .223 next year as a stunt maybe or a "challenge" mostly.We had a 6X6 walk right through camp last year in my sons unit(not mine) and watched it broadside for maybe 90 seconds,time enough I could have grabbed a rifle and blasted it as it stood there less than 100 yards away broadside.

I know where there hanging out but I couldn't go in after them out of my legal unit.

In answer to your question,the smallest caliber I have used on Elk is the .270 and between myself/my grandpa and my dad,I have seen an easy 100 fall to the mighty .270 Win..I started out as a packers son never missing a season and never being skunked.Times have changed since the old days...But life goes on and I love a challenge,a real challenge..Keeps my blood moving. grin

Jayco

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#6255594 - 03/05/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: logcutter]
Mauser_Hunter Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 09/28/11
Posts: 4195
Loc: Colorado
Ok, good enough. Good luck with your hunt.


Edited by Mauser_Hunter (03/05/12)
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#6256226 - 03/06/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: Mauser_Hunter]
elkivory Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 12/14/08
Posts: 3523
Loc: colorado
Every living creature will die: It is unavoidable.It is the process of dieing that is the issue here..Do you prefer to die in your sleep or go through 6 months of chemo on a respirator..some marksman are proficent enough to make a clean kill with whatever is at hand, but if you try to gain approval from the general populous with a method that is not the norm, you are obviosly trying to get support for something that you havent total confidence in and are seeking the approval of others before following through..I suspect you could make a clean, swift, humane kill..but it IS WRONG TO ADVOCATE the use of this caliber to the general populous as a legimate choice for the intended purpose..

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#6256469 - 03/06/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: elkivory]
GS Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 52
I live in Florida so if I ever get the opportunity to go elk hunting I'm not going to be carrying .223. However, I always ask this question when I see the .223 for (insert species here) argument come up. If an arrow fired from a compound traveling 280 fps is so dang deadly, why would a 65-75 grain bonded or mono-metal .224 bullet moving at 3000+ fps not be just as deadly? Do they not both disrupt the supply of oxygen to brain by disabling the lungs thus causing death to visit quickly?


Edited by GS (03/06/12)

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#6256517 - 03/06/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: logcutter]
Backroads Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/02/10
Posts: 751
Loc: Montana
I have helped pack out a fat cow that was dispatched with a .223.
My friend was out looking for a couple coyotes and came across a cow bedded down in a snow squall. He put one through her ears at 80 yards or so, turned off the switch instantly.
Not what I would carry looking for elk, but an effective ear hole caliber.

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#6256688 - 03/06/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: Mauser_Hunter]
Ringman Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 11/04/03
Posts: 17280
Loc: G P,OR
Quote:
Three that were wounded says it all. Thanks for posting that.


You never heard of someone wounding an elk with a larger caliber. I witnessed a fellow hit a cow elk with a .30-30 at least five times before it fell. If it had been in timber and moving out do you think it would have made a difference to that cow with what it was wounded?

How far did the wounded elk go in the article? We don't know if they were part of the 11. Apparently several dropped soon after the shot.
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#6256744 - 03/06/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: Ringman]
elkivory Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 12/14/08
Posts: 3523
Loc: colorado
thats the whole point !!! .
.223, .243, 30-30 etc..........
if thats what you got, thats what you got... but do not advocate that as an "elk killing machine" BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT and we dont need a bunch of newbies out there thinking they are doing the right thing because , we, on this forum,who are all knowing, say its a good option, so i'm gonna save my pennies and go get an AR and then i can use it on prarie dogs this spring after elk season !!!!!!!!!!!!!


Edited by elkivory (03/06/12)

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#6256776 - 03/06/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: logcutter]
WyColoCowboy Online   content
Campfire Guide

Registered: 03/06/12
Posts: 4064
Loc: Woodland Park, Colorado
Don't know anyone that considers a .243 an elk-killing machine. When that .223, 62 grain bullet hits bone, it disentegrates and leaves and injued animal that will likely not be found unless you make a perfect shot. In the real world of elk hunting, you don't always get a 75-yard shot like you do hunting whitetails in your back 40.

Elk hunting is a man's sport and needs a man's gun... LOL
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#6256787 - 03/06/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: elkivory]
Mauser_Hunter Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 09/28/11
Posts: 4195
Loc: Colorado
For those who say they've seen bigger calibers wound animals, or it 3-4 shots with a bigger caliber.

Do you think they would have done better if they were using a .223?

The question is....why not use a .223? I say....why not use something bigger?

The only answer i've gotten to why use a .223 was it was a challenge.


Edited by Mauser_Hunter (03/06/12)
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Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.

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#6256799 - 03/06/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: Mauser_Hunter]
tomk Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 03/16/04
Posts: 4118
Loc: Michigan
the upside of being naive is that one receives the full experience...

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#6257253 - 03/06/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: GS]
TakeEm Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 542
Loc: SD
Originally Posted By: GS
I live in Florida so if I ever get the opportunity to go elk hunting I'm not going to be carrying .223. However, I always ask this question when I see the .223 for (insert species here) argument come up. If an arrow fired from a compound traveling 280 fps is so dang deadly, why would a 65-75 grain bonded or mono-metal .224 bullet moving at 3000+ fps not be just as deadly? Do they not both disrupt the supply of oxygen to brain by disabling the lungs thus causing death to visit quickly?


Because the arrow likely weighs between 400-500grains with most of it's weight forward of center which increases penetration. the .224 bullet doesn't. The arrow causes massive hemmorage through blood loss and cuts it's way through the animal. The bullet relies on force to penetrate and cause tissue disruption and hemmoraging.
I don't question that someone with a .223 and a TSX/NPT could kill an Elk, it's more of a question of whether or not you should.

I know I am a little late to the party on this one and Elk have no doubt been killed/wounded by calibers from the .223 up through the .458 Win Mag. If someone has no other option and they are hunting for food, I don't take issue with that. I think that under ideal conditions in the hands of an expert it could be done,and has been done.

However, I don't think it is responsible to promote the use of the smallest caliber possible as a gimmick which may encorage other less experianced hunters to think they can do the same under less ideal conditions. I don't care if it is an AR or a heavy barrel bolt gun. I understand the need to challenge yourself, I use a recurve bow for all my archery hunting, and have for all of my life. I would say, if you want a challenge, use a .44 Mag open sight handgun, bow, etc.

I understand also that a lot of Elk are wounded each fall by guys banging away with .300 Ultras and 7mm's that watch too much outdoor channel and think they can kill Elk to 1000 because they shoot X caliber and saw it done on TV. Heck I saw a guy sighting in for Antelope with a .338 Lapua with a 1500 yard range card taped to the gun that couldnt hit a snuff can at 200 yards.
I guess it breaks down to is it legal to do so? Yep, in your state it is. In mine and most others it is not. Can it be used effectively with a bullet like the TSX? Yes. Is it as effective as a .30-06, .300 Win or other "Elk gun" using a TSX? Absolutely not.


Edited by TakeEm (03/06/12)
Edit Reason: spelling
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#6257312 - 03/06/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: logcutter]
1minute Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 01/28/01
Posts: 16707
Loc: Burns/Hines, Oregon, USA
Another case of it's not fair to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.
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#6258080 - 03/06/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: 1minute]
logcutter Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 5762
Loc: Central Idaho
Originally Posted By: 1minute
Another case of it's not fair to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.


Let me ask you this..How many different calibers have you seen cleanly take Elk/By that I mean, that you were there and part of the party/crew.Have you ever seen the .222/.22-250 or.223 used on Elk to have an opinion?

I have and they work in the right hands.I am not saying there the all around Elk caliber,I am saying they killed Elk each and every time I saw them used.

Jayco

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#6259404 - 03/06/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: WyColoCowboy]
logcutter Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 5762
Loc: Central Idaho
Originally Posted By: WyColoCowboy
Don't know anyone that considers a .243 an elk-killing machine. When that .223, 62 grain bullet hits bone, it disentegrates and leaves and injued animal that will likely not be found unless you make a perfect shot. In the real world of elk hunting, you don't always get a 75-yard shot like you do hunting whitetails in your back 40.

Elk hunting is a man's sport and needs a man's gun... LOL


Do you have any pictures of a 62 grain TSX or any solid copper bullet that disintegrated on bone or even a rock pile?I have shot alot of bullets into semi solid rock and the only two that did not disintegrate was the Barnes solid copper and the North Fork with a solid copper base.

Neither will disintegrate on bone..Guaranteed!!!!



Jayco

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#6260983 - 03/07/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: TakeEm]
Ringman Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 11/04/03
Posts: 17280
Loc: G P,OR
Quote:
I don't question that someone with a .223 and a TSX/NPT could kill an Elk, it's more of a question of whether or not you should.


I don't understand this "should". If it's legal and one wants to one should. We have too many laws already. If you don't want to don't even if it's legal.
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