Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only A bit of 450 Alaskan help needed...

My project is getting closer, but...
I don't see loaded 450 Alaskan listed where it was when I started this, and I need provide cartridges to finish the project, and I am stuck now. Looking for a 400 grain bullet, or even better both a 400 and a 500. This is for a M71 project.

Anyone got a place to point me?
_________________________
Dino in Reno

Tried to help you with an answer in lever gun central. May be you don't read it...I write it again: don't know of factory loaded 450AK may be Corbon or Buffalo bore can help you. Or Wild West Gun in Alaska.

Most info you can find are in book from Wolfe Publishing: Big Bore article by Mister Kornfeld and from a Wolfe small publication by Scovill and other writers called: Legacy of lever gun. Think you can buy it from their web site.

You can go to Paco Kelly web site Leverguns.com or call at Rifle and ask Pierce or Scovill.

You may find also infos from Ackley ain his writing because he AIed the 450AK...

Case capacity is close to 45-90 so you can begin with hi pressure load datas from that caliber and increase slowly.

Dom

When my .50AK was made i had no factory loads, using what i get between my ears, other people experience added to mine and Starline cases i developped my datas. The book named higher were great help.
Good enough to slay 13 water buffalos in Australia plus bunch of wild boars here and there.

Dom

Sorry me again: if you don't find factory loadind Quality Cartride sell 450 Alaskan brass with right dimension and headstamp from the web or through Midway

Dom

There are several simple ways to work out safe pressure loads but I don't have any idea the level of your expertise...I started to outline a simple procedure I used in the olden days "B4SOFTWARE" but deleted it...ANYONE can read this net thing, I don't want the baddies OR the goodies going instant parts with their toys.

There are several articles on Leverguns, Marlin Owners...the Reloading Bench has data on the 450 Alaskan.

www.gmdr.com had a nice article and information on the pressure limits of the M71. READ THIS ARTICLE FIRST, then go from there.

The 450 Alaskan is a good one and as long as you don't try to make it a "magnum" you'le be alright.

The 1895 Marlin and the M71 are rated closely pressure wise and there have been many 450 and 50 Alaskan conversions on the Marlin receiver, just never push the pressure. With a 500 gr bullet you DON't NEED TO.

The 50 Alaskan pressure is maxed at 35KCUP and COAL is ~2.5" to 2.90" depending on the bullet weight, metal type and profile, you can find that date online at several places... and can use the same powders with the same bullet weights as long as you start out at least 10% below the lowest pressure and work up slowly.

I would keep the 450 Alaskan maxed at similar pressures in BOTH the M71 and Marlin receiver.


I contacted Johan at Accurate Arms Powder Co. and he gave me some very good load data for AA powders for the 458 American(458 x 2" - 73 gr H2O) barrel I have on a Marlin 336 that fit the pressure limits of the Marlin receiverr. AA2230 and AA 2640 were two very good powders with the AA2460 being the best overall powder including testing against Hodgdon, DuPont and Alliant powders.

There is information out there but you have to dig it out the hard way...by SEARCHING online and copying the data into a word processor.

Thanks to all, and thanks Dom for the Quality Cartridge lead. I have 100 or so .348 cases, but some marked 450 Alaskan will be great if I ever get a hunt out of the states.

I should have been a bit more clear. I need loaded (dummy or live) rounds for the shop to do some feed cycle work. I guess I should have bought dies first, not last... I have lots of load data, just no loads (or rifle yet) :-)

Thanks for the load data info NFG, the AA info sounds like a good place to do some work once I get my new rifle.

Heavy half round 22" barrel on a pre war 71 ( yes I am keeping all the original parts). The rifle was used but not to hard, but had bore pitting and reworked wood, so I went for my first as I want it rifle.

I want a fun and useful thumper, not a lever action Lott. Say 10% under what's in Cartridges Of The World.

I'll plan better next time.

You may also want to look at Dave Scovill's article on the 450 AK in his lever cction Rifles paperback (available from Wolfe Publishing). H335 is another powder that works well with the 450.

400 Grain FP bullets like the Blue Mountain give great penetration at allowed COAL and good MVs.

its a 300 grain load , but its loaded ammo

http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=158054&CAT=4447

Hi Dino,

The Winchester receiver allows longer overal lenght, someting that can be useful.
In my .50 AK Winchester71 this give me me more margin to play with some heavy bullet and corbin tool to make cannelure that allows me longer COL than my friends (3) with Marlin. I use a 20inch medium heavy barrel. Looks like the one Johnson made from an 86 receiver and BMG barrel...

The new japanese made 86 receiver can be a good option too if you want to push a bit the enveloppe. They can support more pressure than Marlin.

An 86 in 450AK is my new plan but need to wait, bought a N1 450-400 and daughter going to university in september! Hard time for money...
Dom

Already posted but gives you an idea of the big fifty mod71:



Marlin not .450 but .50



If your looking for a very fast and effective rear sight for close and not so close work: this sight is made by Recknagel. Here on my former original 71 this gives you idea of barrel size....

did not realize you could do a 50 Alaskan on a Marlin.....neat....

Lot of work!! Believe me. Better go to Winchester or Browning receiver.
We are looking now if it would be do able with BLR Magnum...

Dom

I LIKE that rear sight, Writing Frog. Do you have any problems picking it up against light colored foliage? That base also gives me some ideas.

Goto Wild Wild West...they have a few 45 and 50 AK conversions, so do several other leversmiths. Do an online search for 45/50 AK, there is a few excellent tomes written on just how these conversion came about.

I WOULDN'T do either conversion to a Marlin unless the square threaded receiver was recut or a V threaded receiver was used. Anyone contemplating such a conversion needs to pull a 45-70 barrel take a look at the design and construction, measure the barrel threads, do some simple math, then look for M71 receiver. There is TONS of controversy on the net about a Marlin conversion to the AK configuration.

I'm not a fan of large rimmed cases in leverguns for MANY reasons, single shots are no problem I have a few I like very much, but the M71 was designed for the 348 case so no problem there.

I also WOULDN'T even consider doing a large rimmed case conversion in a BLR...the design of the magazine alone puts that into the "stay the he** away" zone. Besides WHY would you...if you have a take down model, belted mag the 450 Marlin barrel can taken out to 50 cal and you can use a WSM case to get the capacity. There are MANY other problems with specific models of the BLR/BAR/BPR that pretty much put those into the "don't even THINK about it" zone.

That's not saying it is impossible...ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE if you throw enough money at it...it's just not very feasible.

I have a BLR 450 Marlin solid receiver and because of the MUCH higher pressure level limits, I can load it up to equal and surpass the 45 AK. I have fiddled with the 450 M BLR magazine and I can reach 2.65" COAL without a lot of mucking about, but going much farther gets into areas hard to reach in a solid frame model...it might be much easier in a take-down model, but again there is NO NEED WHATSOEVER...I can spit out a 525gr Beartooth hard cast lead bullet out of my 450 M WAY beyond what most people can handle in the recoil department.

COAL length for the Marlin is also a problem...basically without a lot of money changing hands, 2.65" is about all you can go...some smiths advertize 2.72" as maximum, but that still costs a bundle to have done.

There are a lot of people dreaming about doing these things but very FEW actually KNOW what is required and feasible OR the costs involved in the conversion...your looking at 3-5 large even for a basic SAFE conversion of a Marlin to the AK when all you have to do is a very simple rechamber to the 450 Yukon(WSM case) in a 1895 Marlin 450 Marlin V threaded action and you have a SAFE AK and beyond.

I see nothing wrong at all with the AK versions in specific rifles...BUT...in todays world there are much better and easier to handle cases that will equal and surpass the AK's, feed much better, require LESS FUTZING AROUND so cost less, and do the same job, but with probably much less "BRAGGING RIGHTS" also.

Sticking with the M71 348 W makes your conversion much more feasible...basically just a rebarrel.

We already have made Marlin conversion in 50 AK. Seven (7) at the moment. They work well without any problem of safety but COAL is limited as i (you) said before better work with 71 or 86 receiver.
But these are more expensive in France than Marlin.
Lots of people just repeat what they read. We tried, made them and use them now. We even have a bullet maker friend (french) who manufactures for us, 400grs copper alloy bullet, solid and expanding. The expanding one give interesting results on wild boars, if you don't care about meat.

About pressure .50Ak is not higher then 450Marlin if you stay with 450grs at 1980fps.

Threads were modified by my gunsmith friend who is well used to heavy caliber and big bore. Modifications are not easy to go for good feeding, holding in the magazine (because of recoil) and loading through the loading gate. But they are flawless now.

My 71 needed modification of magazine stop cause the heavy recoil of 500grs Woodleight at 2000fps made cartriges jump the stop and jam the elevator. Now it's over, as reliable as any bolt even with 600grs lead bullets and faster shooting. (around 400 rounds down the tube)

Idea of the BLR came as a stunt as Mauser was able to make magazine rifle for rimmed cases, we think it can be do able even if we don't need it. Life is too short to stay in already made tracks, bit of adventure is good. We can also use pointed bullets...And it's the big 50 myth. When you love you don't count!

Rifle loonies, as JB would call us, exist both side of the ocean...

About the cost: i was offered 5000 euros for my 50Ak after coming back from Australia, but it's one of kind, with not a single Winchester marking on, it's registered as Boar StopperIV model. Even for ten thousand will not depart of it. Marlin conversion cost between 3200 to 5000 depends of customer choice and options.

I own also 2x 348 one original rifle deluxe and one Brownind repro carbine plus 2x 45-70 that are hot roaded for years without any problem except mu shoulder being hammered and a bit destroyed.
My original 405Winch mod95 is actualy being redone and will be ready for hunting next season. It wears a three leeves "express" sight and was made by Winchester for it's french distributor for African colonies. Some said the 405 recoil is bad, don't think so, most that say that never fired one.

Will the BLR project go on i'll keep you informed.

Dom

About the sight, no ain't any problem with foliage even with bright light and deep green. It's a bit of fluo and bead is red fiber optic.

That's true...Writing...the net if full of wannabees and wishers and most people have never had a Marln apart much less gunsmithed one, but I HAVE...I have 3 switch barrels for my ONE Marlin 336, a 356 Win, a 444 Marlin and a 458 American...I'm looking at doing a 50 WSM but NOT on the square threaded receiver. I've been wildcatting for 50 odd years, but I'm don't consider myself any kind of expert, I just have my own way of looking at safety as far as the Marlin in concerned in this case.

I've had that action apart a hundred times during the process of building the different switch barrels...crawled over every available parts manual and parts provider, measured eveything there is to measure, talked to all the leversmiths that do conversions and checked out all the required reamers and cutters, and HOW a safe conversion by WWW is done, and calculated as many of the stresses, including Hoop stress, as possible without doing a destructive test OR an engineering stress analysis. I have a very HIGH level of self preservation

I said I wouldn't do an AK conversion to a Marlin UNLESS it was done right, but there have been MANY conversions by just a rebore/rechamber or rebarrel, going back many years to relatively lately with NO work on the barrel/receiver threads. Doing that is an accident waiting to happen as far as I'm concerned...after chambering for the 348 case there isn't very much meat left in the barrel between the threads and the mag tube cutout....you don't want to look TOO hard or you will punch holes in that thin metal. But people are still doing it with little or no problems...just NOT ME. I don't/won't argue the point, that road has been run down way to many times all over the net.

Dave Mason has a set of reamers to open up the Marlin receiver and cut the threads so the extra metal that is removed from the receiver is basically put back into the barrel...the major and minor diameters are changed so the major ID diameter of the receiver threads is larger by about half a thread height thickness and the minor diameter of the barrel threads is done the same way only in reverse. This seemingly small amount of additional metal, IF you calculate the actual amount for the full thread length gives enough added strength to give it a larger safety margin. Doing a conversion this way and keeping the pressure to 35KCUP is all that is required to make a SAFE conversion....but those reamers are ~$300 or half the cost of a V threaded 450 M receiver so I will wait to find a good used 1895 Marlin 450 M to do mine. Besides I have a 50-90 Sharps and a 50 cal Rigby case based wildcat of my own design if T-SagerattusRex climbs over the backyard fence. Hahahahaha

Everyone makes their own choices and lives with the consequences.

This has gone a bit OT...I enjoy building guns more than shooting them so I go a bit overboard too often...I'm trying to stop. Hahahahahahcoughcough...

I am very happy to see the details being discussed. I always liked the feel of the M71 and had heard the tales of heavy recoil. When I got mine and shot it I was wondering what people were talking about. Firm, but pleasant to shoot.

When I found a nice new half round barrel blank to play with I knew what I wanted. So it's being done. The smith has done several .50 AK Winchester builds, but this is his first .450 AK. I'm keeping the .348 barrel, but found a new, or like new .348 barrel with 348 and 54 marked on the bottom. I did not "need" it but there it was and I am weak...

I like that sight, but am looking for a bolt peep for it. For now...

Heh! On oddball rifles I have a Marlin '93 having a new old stock Marlin 30" 32-40 barrel being screwed on, and a Remington-Lee sporter in the waiting pattern for a new barrel, either the 30-40 it's in or a .405. Unless I find a cheap mag that fits the .405, it will be 30-40. I need a bolt-head keeper for it too. Does not look too hard to make if needed.

All too much fun :-)

When living in Canada i bought one nice Marlin 93 original take down, in 30-30, with 26in barrel and an original leather soft case from that era. Bring back to France but a Foreign Legion colonel friend of me decided he wanted the rifle, so after two months of phone calls i sold it to him...

I like these old guns. I'm leaving for Benelli's this morning for four days. When back will show you pictures of a nice sporter Lee 6mmNavy rifle.

Have good week

Dom

Hi NFG,

I prefer to shoot than work on, but can do a bit too. Better loading my own and shooting them...

The Dave Manson reamers are not cheap in US of A for sure, try to imagine in France or Europe: price of tool + price of shipment + 5% import taxe + 21,6% of the whole sum VAT + the custom clearance company fees...
So we have tools made by Triebel (expensive but first class too)and they are used to build more than a single rifle to absorb the cost. Some chambering reamers (the expensive and rare ones) are shared by a small group of gunsmith friends.

I don't know in the US of A, but here, every rifle built must be proofed by CIP proof house providing some over loaded cartridges (if not available at the house). Normally pressure of test loads must be 30% higher than standard maximum. And for sure we must pay for the proofing (expensive too). Without proofing, in case of rifle failure on the shooting range or in the field, you're in really deep cshit.

But we know the rule and price to pay...
Have a good week.

Dom

Yeah, Dom...it's scary what is going on "over the water"...I wouldn't be able to afford to do ANY playing on my retirement if I lived "over there"...that same thing is trying to be implimented over here to control the firearms industry and the people in general.

Only factory firearms or people wanting their newly developed rifles and calibers to be included in SAAMI need apply...as far as I understand inclusion into SAAMI is voluntary, but without having a SAAMI "stamp" and the advertizing "SAAMI seal of approval", once the word got out people would be reluctant to buy.

Maybe someone in the know would clarify the regulations and requirements.

I think it is a good thing in some cases and a totally BAD thing in other...human beings need to be governed because we are too dumb and stupid as a total group to be trusted. The net/news media/sound waves are full of the things people do to people and to themselves.

Right on Dino...I've NEVER had a W70 or a W71 and I can't for the life of me understand why. At one time I couldn't see beyond a W70 375 H&H Mag, but it never happened.

I think the CRF W70 is the more simple and reliable between the Win and Rem...and todays Win CRF is actually much better in some ways than the Pre-64, but BOTH of these tools just keep slipping through my hands and not sticking...and I'm WAY to tight to pay the freight for an original M71, nor would I ever mess with it if I did find one I could afford.

My fault tho'...if I quit building strange and weird wildcats and saved my pennies I could have both Win's, but that would be like asking a Leopard to start sporting Zebra stripes.... Hahahahahahah. Hopefully someday.

What I would give to have a 28-30", full octogon, 50-90 Turnbull.