Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns S&W 1911 vs Kimber 1911

I have to disagree. I'm hardly an expert, especially when it comes to the development of the 1911 or high-end custom guns. I got my first 1911 type in 1982 and have been shooting them ever since though. Colts are/were hardly "excrement". They were the standard by which all others were judged for a long, long time. Colts were always fine shooting ball ammo. Where they failed was in shooting hollowpoint ammo and this was not even an issue until hollowpoints became prevalent back probably in the mid-seventies. Target shooters and reloaders would shoot SWC ammo and Colt's typically would not feed this either, unless you got the National Match/Gold Cup. That particular gun was definitely an answer for those who wanted an out-of-the-box gun with features rivaling custom 1911's.

By the '80s we were seeing several manufacturers making 1911's and competing with Colt's. Springfield Armory, MS Safari Arms, and Auto Ordnance come to mind. The gun that really revolutionized things IMO, was the Norinco. Norinco started having their 1911's imported here in the late eighties and they would feed hollowpoints. Suddenly, Colt was forced to offer a 1911 that would feed something other than ball ammo, which is something they had never done before unless you paid extra for the Gold Cup. The 1991A1 came out and Colt quietly upgraded their other guns. Now most name-brand guns feed everything, but give credit where it belongs, sadly, to the Chinese.

Nope, not even close to the truth. Especially with Norinco. Norinco was an excellent CHEAP starter platform - at least they were heat-treated - something that AutoOrdinance couldn't seem to do right (AO's were major POC). But a Norinco was mil-spec 1911 - not a modern* 1911.

Kimber's were tight, heat treated, came with everything you used to pay a smith to do, and feed all bullet profiles reliably. Suddenly Colt was something to wipe your rear with - why buy a Colt, which you had to immediately send to a smith, when you could buy a rock-solid Kimber off the rack? For a while, you couldn't give a Colt away.

SA didn't make a modern 1911 until long after Kimber was dominating the market. And the rest of the manufacturers you mentioned are gone because they produced a crappy product.

Kimber was the first company to sell a very good mass produced modern 1911. And that is what started the 1911-revival - and I'm still seeing young guys buying a modern 1911 for their 1st pistol.

* "modern" is not what your grandfather carried in WWII.

"For a while, you couldn't give a Colt away."


Hey dla, if you know anyone that wants to give away their Colt 1911, let me know! :-)

IIRC, Kimber bought out an out-of-work aerospace company that was a victim of Clinton era defense cuts (remember "Falling Down?") They were then in possesion of the most sophisticated CNC cutting/tooling equipment in the gun industry. This made a much more precisely manufactured 1911 possible without a lot of hand fitting, supposedly.

Rockburner I got seconds behind you for the Colt give-a-ways!

Every company has its time with issues no doubt. I was born and raised not far from the Big Blue Onion. I knew a lot of people that worked there from goodtimes to bad. When companies are run by bean counters that only look at the bottomline bad things happen. When companies go public and have to answer to investers again bad things happen.

Another problem that Colt like many other manufacturing companies here in CT and the Northeast faced was lossing skilled machinist,deburrers, file workers to higher paying aerospace companies. Something that really doesn't get published in gun magazines. Not a mile as the crow flys across the Connecticut River was the then still Mighty Pratt and Whitney/ United Technologies. In the hight of the 70's and 80's it was a sure thing a family member worked there or for a vendor of theirs.

Then came the 90's and well things changed here drastically and fast. Not making excuses for bad choices and Unions that surely killed the Northeast Manufacturing businesses forever. But there is always more to the story, "Your story,their story, and Somewhere in the middle the truth".

1911 history as recorded in Bizarro World.

....life's very simple and uncomplicated for you dla.

I believe that what he's trying to say (vary badly) is that Kimber was the first manufacturer to offer beavertail safeties, hi-viz sights, etc. before that, you had to buy a Colt with pimple sights and send it off to a pistolsmith to get it all tricked out.

How should I say this? B.S!

I unfortunately had to sell my pre-Series-70 Colt National Match, manufactured ~1967 IIRC. And not everyone makes its equal.

Hey, if you've got a better answer then lets hear it. I'm amazed at how some of you think your singular 1911 experience proves me wrong. Talk about your bizarro world.

Well to quote John Wayne, "Life is tough, and its tougher if your stupid".
Read, learn and then post.

thanks dla---I appreciate your heart felt sentiment and will aspire to not be stupid anymore. Perhaps if you posted more, I could read and learn and maybe aspire to your level of logic. Thanks.
Your pal,
G

Same here. I have a 70 Series and an 80 series Colt. I like them but prefer my Kimber Custom Carry II. The 70 series is my least favorite and it will bite the web of a careless shooter. I know. Were I to sell any, the Kimber would be the last and the 70 series the first.

O

You are on. Send me a pm. Oh yeah. My 70 doesn't have that collet finger stuff. It has a proper 1911 bushing.

O

There's absolutely nothing that a Series 70 Mark IV Colt brings to the table, performance wise, that a new Kimber doesn't as well, other than the fact that the Kimber has a FPS, which is easily gotten rid of or deactivated.

Every Series 70 that I've had my hands on needed the barrel to be throated & the magazines reworked (or changed out) in order to feed hollow point bullets reliably.........& the best of that era were the Super-Vel 190 gr loads at a little over a 1000 fps & they were very, very flat.

Kimbers (& most other top tier guns today including Colt) have throated barrels.

I love the older Colts, but they are what they are until you help them to become the equals of current top line 1911's.

MM

Mon..,

If the 70 Series brought something of value to the table they'd still be in production.

A VERY anti-(hand)gun state !!!!!

They are (page 14 of the 2012 catalog http://www.coltsmfg.com/Catalog/ColtPistols.aspx), minus the collet bushing. Demand was so high they brought it back. Not unlike Coke bringing back the original after the new Coke flopped.

The revival of Colt's quality control has been as epic as their previous decline was.

Saying that Kimber was responsible for the 1911's popularity is silly. There were millions in service before Kimber even started making .22 rifles, let alone 1911's.

Colt had union/corporate problems in the '80's and quality was hit & miss, but practical/action shooting was growing in popularity. That opened the door for Springfield & others. AMT made their clones, which were mostly junk, but interested a lot of people.

By the 1990's Kimber had reorganized & recapitalized after going bankrupt in Oregon. With new equipment they figured out that they could fit a gun tight, and coached their sales people to shake the gun in front of prospective buyers. Colts of the day rattled, and many new 1911 afficianados (me included) thought oh Kimber must be better. Kimber also was able to sell at good prices with the modern equipment, and the use of MIM for small intricate parts, like safeties and extractors.

Colt rebounded, the 1911 continued to be popular, and other folks got in the game, like Wilson, Baer, Ed Brown Sig, S&W, etc.

Of the production makers, I think Colt currently has the best batting average, but S&W is very close, and would get my nod for the OP's question. Kimber is not close, I've seen too many fail, and seen too many reports of failures. I have one in 10mm, and it's a fun pistol, but not reliable enough for defense.

This is neither here nor there, but somewhat related to the hijack at least; if anyone has data showing total 1911 sales in the US over say the last thirty years I would love to see it. Broken down by maufacturer and compared to other autos in general would be nice too while I'm asking.