Been curious about these sorta goofy-looking fighters of late. America and England pretty much panned 'em but the Russians apparently loved 'em, and took on the Luftwaffe with 'em, including Bf 109's and FW190's.
and then a thirty minute feature from the Bell Aircraft Company, Buffalo, NY. Lots of tech and operational details here that might interest pilots, and check out just how slow the rate of fire was on that 37mm cannon.
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
I always found them intriguing as well. The Soviet use of them as tank busters sort of made them an early-day A-10 in a way.
Wiki has an in-depth write-up. According to them Russian P-39's were using the wrong kind of cannon ammo to take out armor, instead they used them mostly as fighters against the Luftwaffe. But, like the A-10, turns out it was designed around the cannon.
The comparatively low-speed, low-altitude nature of most air combat on the Russian Front suited the P-39's strengths: sturdy construction, reliable radio gear, and adequate firepower.
Russian pilots appreciated the cannon-armed P-39 primarily for its air-to-air capability. Soviet P-39s had no trouble dispatching Junkers Ju 87 Stukas or German twin-engine bombers and matched, and in some areas surpassed, early and mid-war Messerschmitt Bf 109s. ...
Five out of the ten highest scoring Soviets aces logged the majority of their kills in P-39s. Grigoriy Rechkalov, number two-scoring Soviet ace (56 individual air victories plus 5 shared), occasionally his wingman while both were members of 16.Gv...
The United States did not supply M80 armor-piercing rounds for the autocannons of Soviet P-39s�instead, the Soviets received 1,232,991 M54 high-explosive rounds which the Soviets used primarily for air-to-air combat and also against soft ground targets. The VVS did not use the P-39 for tank-busting duties
Birdwatcher
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
While the Wildcats get the credit, the Cactus Air Force at Guadalcanal had a number of P-400's (export versions of the P-39 intended for the RAF). Google-Fu "the mission that saved Guadalcanal," and you're in for a surprise... The P-63 King Cobra, with a Packard-built Merlin, was an Aircobra on steroids, bigger, faster (over 400 mph), and with a roll rate quicker than a Mustang.
Interesting - now I have to go and try to find where I got the tank-busting notion for the Red Air Force
Same places we all did I'd guess. I've read that same thing numerous times over the years. A misleading impression prob'ly in part due to the fact we have relatively few first-person combat accounts from the Russians.
Really, before looking into it in the past couple of days I had thought the P-39/P-400 was a total failure. Criticisms I've read focused on the wing loading (high) and the poor performance at altitude.
Actually seeing it in motion gives a different impression. The article states the Russians removed the wing guns to improve the roll rate, fiding the twin 50's and cannon in the nose to be sufficient. Even given the relatively low rate of fire and curving trajectory, the effect of an explosive 37mm shell on a target aircraft musta been something.
Birdwatcher
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
The P-63 King Cobra, with a Packard-built Merlin, was an Aircobra on steroids, bigger, faster (over 400 mph), and with a roll rate quicker than a Mustang.
How does roll rate translate to manouverability?
I'm guessing a fast roll rate means you can initiate a turn quicker, but that all else being equal turning radius is largely a function of wing-loading.
Birdwatcher
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
There's a reason as to why us and the Brits didn't stick with them. Not very maneuverable, that mid engine played havoc with CG, Trim etc engine was easier to poke holes in a fight and you had the shaft right betwixt your legs. Maybe it would have been a hit with females flying.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
There's a reason as to why us and the Brits didn't stick with them. Not very maneuverable, that mid engine played havoc with CG, Trim etc engine was easier to poke holes in a fight and you had the shaft right betwixt your legs. Maybe it would have been a hit with females flying.
Well, the "Russ" did have a number of female pilots, Jorge!
I didn't realize the engine was more vulnerable than other inline types.
Having you aviator types around here is right handy at times.
"For joy of knowing what may not be known we take the golden road to Samarkand." James Elroy Flecker
Well it was ostensibly behind the pilot and it was air cooled. Lots of hoses scoops etc to keep it cool in the back and the engine in my opinion anyway is better protected up front. Lots of info out there on the P-39.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
The P-63 King Cobra, with a Packard-built Merlin, was an Aircobra on steroids, bigger, faster (over 400 mph), and with a roll rate quicker than a Mustang.
How does roll rate translate to manouverability?
I'm guessing a fast roll rate means you can initiate a turn quicker, but that all else being equal turning radius is largely a function of wing-loading.
Birdwatcher
Not nessesarily. Roll rate means just that in those give you an advantage say when doing a Split S to get away but for example the S-3 had a HORRIBLE roll rate, deliberately arrested because the wing loading just couldn't take it (you could roll very quickly though by going "dirty" as one needs it when landing particularly coming aboard) BUT, the Viking's turn RATE was faster than most fighters. In fact it was fun as an ego deflater with the Tomcats and Hornet new guys. As part of our training in DCM (Defensive Combat maneuvering) we'd brief ROE and then go fight in Indian country, go beak to beak, call "fight's on" and just as long as those guys just decided to turn and not go vertical, they'd quickly realize there was a slow, fugly S-3 on their Six calling "Fox Two" or "guns" followed by the mandatory ribbing and beer buying at the club debrief. Then of course they got smart fast and just go vertical, Hi yo-yo and we were toast.
In real life however, we'd hang low (below 500') where there's no room below you and that helped out a bit. Particularly when dicking with Lybian Migs. They were pretrified of low altitude so we'd turn with them, they'd panic and boogie home. :::SIGH::: thanks for deppressing me now...
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Birdie - now that I am actively searching for a reference to tank-busting by the Soviets, I naturally can't find one. (Not to dispute your information, but to satisfy my curiosity as to where I saw it. I bet that you are spot-on in your assessment of it as one of those bits of misinformation that gets passed from source to source.) I did come up with some production figures - 9,588 of the variants were produced, with 4,773 of them winding up sporting red stars. Regarding the P-39D, I found this tidbit - "... the version that most disappointed the designers. The 675 aircraft ordered by Great Britain were rejected by the RAF after only a few days' service on the English Channel front, in September 1941. The judgement of the pilots was unfavorable: in practice, confronting the German fighters with the P-39 was equal to suicide. Consequently, approximately 200 aircraft were sent to the Soviet Union and a further 250 returned to the United States."
Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.
Happily Trapped In the Past (Thanks, Joe)
Not only a less than minimally educated person, but stupid and out of touch as well.
