Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Question for the combat shooters

Speaking strictly of combat shooting here, not target shooting. Are you supposed to wrap the index finger of your supporting hand around the front of the trigger guard or wrap all of the supporting fingers around your shooting hand?

I borrowed this picture that Mackay posted since it shows what I'm talking about.



The front of the trigger guard is flat but the shooter has all of his fingers under the guard. The Beretta website has this blurb in describing the features of the 92A1 version: "Rounded trigger guard: Updated styling to conform with current pistol gripping practices".

If the pic above is "current gripping practices" when did wrapping that finger around the front of the trigger guard become old fashioned and more importantly, why?

A LOOONG time ago. Shooters figured out that the more contact you have with that pistol the faster your recovery/recoil management will be. See that gap between the shooter's support-hand index finger. It needs to close. That index finger should be jambed up against the trigger guard, you can use that finger to "steer" the sights. Look at his firing hand, it could probably grip the gun a half inch higher. You want BOTH hands just as high on the gun as possible

What he said.

Okay, good enough.

Do you use a push-pull technique with shooting-supporting hand respectively or just squeeze with the hands while extending the arms?

For over 35 years I've wrapped my supporting hand completely around the shooting hand and held both as high on the handgun as possible as mentioned, it just seemed natural to do so, but I've shot SA and DA revolvers way more than autos so was wondering if the technique was any different. My arms were extended with neutral pressure but lately I've tried the push pull to try to reduce muzzle flip.

A good starting point would be some of the better known classes as a LOT has changed in the last 35 years. They will allow you to get a good start on proper new techniques to see if they work for you.

I don't push-pull. I lock out both arms and push-pull seems to twist rather than stabilize.

Both eyes open, high on the grip, both thumbs forward, elbows locked out, shoulders and back rolled forward, knees bent, slight lean forward, standing square to the target, follow through, deep breath and a scan after each string.

Whatever works.

They key either way is controlling recoil. A common misconception is that recoil control is controlling the rearward and upward torque of the pistol, but that's a minor portion of it. The ideal is controlling where the sights fall back on the target after the shot. Grip pressure, thumb and hand placement, shoulders, feet, and all the rest should be used to make the sights drop right back where they started out. A top shooter isn't fast because he can quickly realign the sights after the shot - he's fast because he doesn't have to.

As for me, my index finger wrapped around the trigger guard tends to push the pistol to the strong-side during recoil so I don't do it.

That's an interesting comment because I tried a magazineful one handed with the classic bullseye stance, even putting my right hand (I'm left handed) in my back pocket. I was shooting my Springfield XDm .45. At the shot the pistol would recoil up and right, the sights described an arc with my shoulder as the pivot point. My arm and hand would settle back down back along that same arc and the sights settled back almost perfectly aligned, it only took a minor correction to re-acquire the proper sight picture on the target.

Apparently I'm already doing things right and holding the way folks above have described (mostly). I don't follow the shooting games or read many handgun articles anymore so was just curious what the latest thoughts were on the matter.

Posted this in the thread bemoaning marksmanship skills but I figure this ain't too shabby. This is from yesterday morning with the XDm .45, 50 rounds in 5 round bursts. It's an NRA 25 yard slow fire target and I managed to keep most all shots in the 8 ring. Not sure of the dimensions of a rapid fire target but I'm guessing they would be in the 9 ring on that.

I have big hands and always put my index finger of the support hand on the trigger gaurd. I can hold the gun tighter and recover shot to shot faster with it there. I also think I have alot better chance of keeping my gun should someone get lucky enough to get ahold of it.

I have had some instructors b$tch and moan about it and say it leads to "pushing" the gun to one side but for me it does not.

Dink

I am a little old school but what has worked for me over the years continues to still work today.

I shoot a pretty standard Weaver stance & shooting position.

My weak hand index finger is over the front of the trigger guard but really not exerting any real force, it's just lightly placed there mostly for comfort....my weak hand middle & ring finger pull slightly against the forward push of my strong hand but the key is that it is all natural & not exaggerated in either direction; easier to do that than to explain it, it's just a "feel".

My thumbs are pointing forward in parallel.

I believe, as JOG says, too much weak hand index finger pressure on the trigger guard will induce pulled/pushed shots.

I have tried & practiced the isosceles position & I prefer the more or less standard Weaver stance...........for me the results are in the shooting.

I also believe there are 3 types of shooters:

1. Natural shooters who need a minimum of instruction, pick it up fast & for which shooting is more or less automatic & requires no real thought process.........gun comes up, target acquired, squeeze the shot

2. People that are not nearly as natural as above but through instruction, practice & diligence can become pretty good shooters, more than adequate for self defense

3. People that have no feel for guns or shooting & no matter the amount of instruction or practice never rise to the level of being really capable shooters; they never learn to squeeeze

This doesn't just apply to handguns, but to long guns as well............JMHO, JME.

MM

That describes about how I hold mine, mostly I just started doing what felt natural. It seemed to work, at 19 I qualified witha perfect 30 out of 30 with the 1911 at Ft. Jackson.

I'll get flack for this but I took a handgun familiarization course from the Ft. Lauderdale Police Dept. back in the early 80's. Didn't need familiarization but wanted to see what it was about. As part of the course we shot 50 rounds at 25 yards, had to be all double action if you had a revolver (Colt Mark III .357 in my case). I wasn't used to extensive DA shooting at that time so after about 20 rounds my trigger finger got tired, so I put both left and right index fingers on the trigger. Put all 50 rounds in the middle of the bullseye and started using two fingers on the trigger since then. I found it gave me a very balanced grip even when firing really fast. It doesn't help any with a nice SA pull like a 1911 but with a DA revolver or DA only auto you can fire really, really fast and really straight that way.

I know, I know, tactically this is a real no-no for all kinds of reasons so I've weaned myself off of it but still use that grip for bench testing loads. I tried it a bit with the XDm .45 and then again this morning with the XDm 9mm and it gives a really straight back, very fast pull with those striker fired triggers without pulling or pushing the sights off at all.

If you're interested only in the opinions of experienced combat shooters, then you might want to phrase it along the lines of "So, for you folks who have won gunfights because of the way you grip your gun..."

Call it practical or defensive shooting if you prefer, but the universal truth is that a crappy shooter doesn't get better under pressure at the range or in real life.

.....I guess that it has been a LOOONG time ago, but seems like yesterday. For those of us that were shooting it from the beginning, the finger on the trigger guard was the de rigueur technique unless you had unusually small hands. Ray Chapman was the primary instructor of the technique as Cooper advocated the "all fingers around the front strap" method. Ray said that putting the index finger on the front of the trigger guard insured that the handgun was as low in your hands as it could be, and the lower the better. Alot, if not most of the early great shooters shot with their hands on the trigger guard:
Ken Hackathorn:



Rick Miller:



Ross Seyfried:



Mickey Fowler:



and "new shooters" like Bill Rogers:



and Chip McCormick:



Then in between 1981 and 1982 Rob Leatham went from a modified Weaver with the finger on the trigger guard:

[img]http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/gmoats/Oldshootingpics026.jpg[/img]

to an Isosceles with the finger off the trigger guard:

[img]http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/gmoats/Oldshootingpics173.jpg[/img]

.....and he's been kickin butt ever since.

Your question about "when" the change took place pretty much goes to Leatham and Enos in 1982. Alot of shooters switched from Weaver to Isosceles and the thumbs forward position at that point. It also helped that the next year, the mass exodus from the .45 to the compensated .38 Supers really made recoil recovery much less of an issue.

If your question about "combat" shooting was specifically about actually shooting people---there's only one person in modern history with more recorded kills than Jim Cirillo---and I'm told that he's an LA police officer whose name is kept confidential (could be urban legend for all I know, but Cirillo has BTDT). While he may have been primarily a revolver shooter, here he's shooting da/sa auto---not a particularly good grip.

[img]http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/gmoats/OldPics290.jpg[/img]


If you took the old "masters" in their prime-- Chapman, Seyfried, Fowler and especially Raul Walters, and put them up against today's hotshots---today's hotshots would win--UNLESS you made them use 5" Government models with hardball equivalent ammo---then, I'm not so sure. JMO, YMMV.

The real reason those guys shot so well is because of their hats and glasses.



Travis

Aviators ruled even back then----were you born yet???

No.


Travis

I was born in 1977.

Those pics are from what...the late 1800's?


Travis

Winning gunfights can be attributed to a lot of things, mostly timing, mindset and tactics. If you're waiting to hear from someone who attributes victory to a grip you're in for a long wait.

But if you want to know how people are training for combat, and how trainers are training them...a weaver stance with your finger wrapped around the front of the trigger guard ain't it.

Training for "combat" is one thing; "combat shooting" like IDPA, bowling pins, steel plates, the old IPSC is quite another & is likely what the OP was/is referring to.

MM