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Campfire Kahuna
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About a month and a half ago the subject of the 6mm (or .236) Lee Navy cartridge came up. The thread went on for a little while, then ended with this post by RamblinRazorback
"One interesting tidbit in the Wikipedia article on the 6mm Lee Navy is the article states the bullet was 6mm (0.236") in diameter. Was the bullet for the Lee Navy truly 6mm (0.236") in diameter (rather than the diameter of the modern "6mm" bullet which is actually approximately 0.243" in diameter), or is that just a mistake in the Wikipedia article?"
As a result of this thread I became so interested in the 6mm Lee Navy that when a Winchester Sporter showed up at Capital Sports and Western, and I bought it. A couple days later my friend John LaRue (who had spotted the rifle) generously sold me a box of Remington-UMC factory ammo in very good condition.
This rifle and ammo answered some questions, and more have been answered by buying a copy of a book on the Winchester Lee Navy rifles. But the ammo itself provided a very firm answer to the question of bullet diameter. Five rounds from the box averaged .2437" in diameter, so in this instance the Wikepedia entry is dead wrong. (Not unknown....)
There are reasons for this mistake, which I'll be discussing in an article for RIFLE magazine.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Looking forward to your article. I have always had an interest in all 6mm cartridges but all I have seen is the case itself.
I would suspect that .236 comes from the British bore/land caliber nomenclature like the .256 Newton so am eager to get the real information. I have always thought a 6mm Lee Navy AI would be a great round for single shot rifles.
"When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred." Niccolo Machiavelli
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Be interested to read the article, too (I subscribe, so I'm fairly sure I'll get it  ). I should think that the simplest form of the explanation that: 0.236" is the _bore_ size (which means before rifling grooves are cut/made), rather than the bullet size. Perhaps combined with the subsequent shift, at least in America, to the convention of referring to bullet diameter, which roughly equates to diameter across the cut grooves, rather than bore diameter. Someone who is younger than perhaps Julian Hatcher or so, and who is not well-read on the topic, wouldn't likely know that. Interested to see the explanation published.
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Looking forward to the article, John. Always nice to get into the history of these older rounds.
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About a month and a half ago the subject of the 6mm (or .236) Lee Navy cartridge came up. The thread went on for a little while, then ended with this post by RamblinRazorback
"One interesting tidbit in the Wikipedia article on the 6mm Lee Navy is the article states the bullet was 6mm (0.236") in diameter. Was the bullet for the Lee Navy truly 6mm (0.236") in diameter (rather than the diameter of the modern "6mm" bullet which is actually approximately 0.243" in diameter), or is that just a mistake in the Wikipedia article?"
As a result of this thread I became so interested in the 6mm Lee Navy that when a Winchester Sporter showed up at Capital Sports and Western, and I bought it. A couple days later my friend John LaRue (who had spotted the rifle) generously sold me a box of Remington-UMC factory ammo in very good condition.
This rifle and ammo answered some questions, and more have been answered by buying a copy of a book on the Winchester Lee Navy rifles. But the ammo itself provided a very firm answer to the question of bullet diameter. Five rounds from the box averaged .2437" in diameter, so in this instance the Wikepedia entry is dead wrong. (Not unknown....)
There are reasons for this mistake, which I'll be discussing in an article for RIFLE magazine. JB, I'm looking forward to the article. I almost bought a 6MM Lee Navy at "Ye Old Hunter" (Interarms retail shop in Alexandria VA) in 1957 or '58. This was one of he original US Navy rifles from the 1890's and it was priced at about $25, or over twice the price of excellent German (Nazi marked) Mauser K98k's (cost $11, IIRC). I did not want to "waste" (?) my $20 on such an obsolete rifle, so I passed it up. Times have changed, prices have changed and, I have changed! Wish I had bought it!!!
Last edited by djs; 05/27/12.
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I've got a Winchester factory sporter in 236 USN. I've always loaded the 100 grain Hornady RN. The gun came to me with a period King peep sight placed in the factory's buckhorn position, an almost unusable sighting proposition. I recall that the Navy wanted to use a 130 grain bullet in the original loadings: this data was in an 1897 FOREST AND STREAM review.
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Campfire Kahuna
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They actually did try a 135-grain for a while, but gave it up and went to the 112.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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My 6XC has a 1:8 twist rate, originally designed to shoot 115 grain bullets. I shudder to think what twist would be needed to stabilize a 135 grain bullet. I also suspect the velocity would be very low.
Don't blame me. I voted for Trump.
Democrats would burn this country to the ground, if they could rule over the ashes.
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Campfire Kahuna
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I've read a lot about the rifles in the past few weeks, and believe the original twist for the 135-grain bullets was 1-6.5, with a muzzle velocity around 2000. The final twist for the 112's was 1-7.5.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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MD, I have a few notes on my computer which may be of use. These were taken from History of Modern U.S. Military Small Arms Ammunition, 1967, by F.W. Hackley et.al. Sorry for the formatting and abbreviations of the notes; they are from an older PC. Page numbers are in brackets.
Win did the cartr development. In 12/1893 the cartr was in
production. The initial version was 135 gn steel FMJ with a 2.35 case and
.517 rim. Dimensions from a sample are rim .513, head .445, neck .268,
bullet .238, case 2.350, OAL 3.180", headstamp WRA .236 USN.[47] Rifles for
test could be either rimmed or rimless. UMC rimmed cases can be marked 6
USN. The rimless cases have a slightly steep shoulder.[48] From 12/94, some
of the early ball cartr were also called .236, but 6 was the official name;
some kept the 135 gn bullets. By 5/1895 112 gn copper jacketed bullets were
tested and gave superior ballistics and less bore wear. The approved Win
drawing was 1896. It used 112 gn copper jacketed at 2550 fps with 43,000
"psi."[49] A UMC drawing gives rim and head .443-8, neck .247, bullet .244,
case 2.35, OAL 3.11". By 1900 rounds were beginning to degrade from heat,
and the USN had decided to use the Army .30 round.[50] \ In the rifle tests,
the 6mm Luger rifle came with ammo similar to the 6 USN but the case was
closer to the .303 in overall dimensions. It used a 135 gn bullet 1.267
long, 36 gn powder, and 348 gn cartr.[273]
Note the initial military batch has been measured at .238. (I wonder if a bore riding nose design was used.) Commercial drawings call for a .244 bullet, as you measured.
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Campfire Ranger
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Looking forward to your article. I have always had an interest in all 6mm cartridges but all I have seen is the case itself.
I'm not as interested in the article as the gun...When are you going to sell it????
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Campfire Kahuna
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You never know. Might be the day after I ship off the article, migth be when I "retire."
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Campfire Kahuna
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2525,
From the information I've accumlated, the first bullets were .238, but eventually they finally decided on .244.
Per usual, there was a lot of protoype experimentation before actual production began, and of course even different variations on the service rifle and action. The sporter even had some production variations, though mostly cosmetic. Mine has some of the barrel stampings in a different place than most rifles.
I've got to contact the Cody museum, too, of course.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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I would like to see if this cartridge started as a rimless version of the 30/40 Krag and then how it begat the semi rimmed .220 swift.
"When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred." Niccolo Machiavelli
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I found in one of my notebooks some stuff I found on the 236 USN. Evidently, Winchester started loading commercial cartridges in the early fall of 1894. There were some interesting penetration tests and ballistic particulars of Gov't. tests with 136 grain bullets published in FOREST AND STREAM Nov.3, '94 ( page 39). In addition, the Nov. 17 '94 number of the same magazine has a write up on development of the cartridge and IIRC mentions some of the early pyrocellulose powders by name.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Actually the very first version, with the 135-grain .238 bullet, was rimmed.
The .220 Swift was given a .473 rim so it would work easily in the Model 54 Winchester, the commercial rifle it first appeared in. It also had a little shorter neck than the 6mm LN, and of course a different bullet diameter. But other than those details the shoulder angle and body dimensions are the same. It's easy to make 6mm LN brass out of Swift cases.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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You never know. Might be the day after I ship off the article, migth be when I "retire." Of, if you emulate me, when I die and my wife gives everything away.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Well, no.
Eileen has a list of an approximate $ value of every firearm I own (she knows what hers are worth, includng the three English shotguns), and even has me sign, date and print where each of my mounted trophies was taken. She ain't giving 'em away.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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I'd bet that no one has considered that the Lee Navy was not the only rifle chambered for the 236 USN. There was a very small handful of Winchester 1885 High Walls with special rimless extractors produced. Ashley Haines once wrote that he knew of two Winchester 1895 lever guns chambered for the same rimless shell. These even showed up in the Winchester catalog for a year.
Remington had their own (rimmed) version intended for the Remington-Lee rifle. The case was somewhat larger in diameter than the Winchester. I had a specimen at one time.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Jim,
Thanks for the information!
I'm not surprised a High Wall or two was chambered for it. Apparently the HW was factory chambered for almost everything that would fit at one time or another.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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