Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Custom Rifles & Wildcats 404-375H&H

I have had some correspondence from D'Arcy Echols regarding a wildcatthat he has been doing some work on;basically a 375H&H necked up to take the same bullets as the 404 Jeffrey. He has a thread going over on AR on the cartridge and his work with it.

This is an interesting cartridge with the same slick-feeding and moderate recoil characteristics as a 375 H&H and can be built on the same actions.I know some guys have been running around trying to find actions that fit the 404 Jeffrey,and here is one that does the same things on H&H actions.

I thought the CF members would find it interesting,so asked D'Arcy if I could start a thread about it on here,and he said yes, so I will let him tell us all about it. Here is one of the emails I received from D'Arcy. I have asked Tanner to help me post the photo's that follow. Enjoy!




Bob
The idea for a 40 caliber bullet used in conjunction with a standard 375 H&H case has rattled around in my head since the late seventies. Some of the curiosity was sparked by instructors at the Colorado School of Trades. Further thought was inspired by the chapter entitled "The All-around Rifle" in John Taylor's book and his admiration for the 400's. What ever it was it settled in early on. What I can remember at that time was that 404 bullets and barrels were as rare as rocking horse crap. As I have yet to see a 375 H&H properly set up, fail to feed, it seemed like a good idea. The 450 Watts and Lott proved their worth in the field, why not a 40 caliber H&H. While everybody was trying to improve the H&H basic case I kept thinking about just necking the damn case up to .423 and making the Lott's little brother. The 375 shoulder would disappear when expanded to except a .423 bullet but the shoulder diameter would stay the same so it should feed with the same reliability as the parent cartridge in actions that were properly machined for the H&H taper. Hollands introduced the 400 H&H but then we're back to a limited bullets and barrel makers.

Last year I followed a thread on Accurate Reloading with interest as the idea of the same basic cartridge was being discussed. Good 404 bullets and barrels are now common and I had developed a gimp shoulder from testing to many large caliber rifles over 3 decades. The Lott was no longer fun to shoot and I'd like to think I still have a trip or two to Africa to make so I said what the hell and called the Henriksen Tool Company (541-535-2309). Hugh and I decided to make up a neck and throating reamer to use in conjunction with a standard 375 H&H reamer. The reamer has a stop collar that will allow minor chamber length adjustments if desired.

As we are also making up a new Remington 700 Legend stock pattern I decided to fit a 404 caliber Douglas to a newly acquired 700 action to get the ball rolling on our pattern as well as test this 30 year old "idea". Brian coached Matt through another fit and chamber exercise while I modified a set of Redding dies to form the brass and load the test rounds. I then called Dick Davis at McMillan and ask if he could send me a 700 stock in ANY configuration to use as a handle just to fire it through our sky screen. I have little doubt he chuckled as he boxed up an A3 pattern and sent it north. With nothing more than a smear of 5 minute epoxy behind the recoil lug I bolted the barreled action in place and even skipped installing a recoil pad. I was anxious.

I have now been to the range twice with this wildcat. I knew getting 2250fps with 400gr bullet would be easy and so it was. I used new Remington brass, Fed 215-M primers. and H-4895 to drive it all. I have now shot the Barnes 400gr Banded solid, the 400gr TSX, the Woodleigh 400gr FMJ and the Swift 400gr A-frame. I had to limit my testing to 50 yards this last weekend as a Match was being conducted on our 100-300 yard range. The scope was a new Leupold 3X.

I did a basic Ladder test with these 16 rounds, starting at 58grs using only the the A-Frame Bullets and went to 73grs before I ran out of rounds. I had two accuracy clusters, one when the velocity reached 2230fps and the other just over 2300fps. The velocity with the 73grs of powder was 2388fps which eclipses the original 416 Rigby load. I noticed no apparent pressure signs with that 73gr load. Belt expansion was only .0008. The next day I returned with 12 rounds all loaded with 66grs of H-4895 and the four different bullets listed above. The Barnes Banded solids certainly proved the 24.5" barrel was made well as did the other projectiles. The average velocity for all four loads was 2250fps which is right where I wanted to be. Std dev was in the single digits. Recoil was very tolerable, almost pleasant in a S&M kind of way.

This wildcat has no ballistic advantage over most of the other 40 calibers that are currently available, in fact it's pretty tame by comparison. With a steady finger on the trigger history tells us it will likely kill well beyond it's humble energy level. I have no doubt you will be able to use any LR 98 set up properly for the H&H case, any Pre-64 Mod-70 set up for the 300 or 375 H&H or any current Model-70 set up for the 7mm STW, 300 Wtby, 375 H&H or similar 3.600 length magazine and have it work like a champ from day one. You will get 4 down and 1 up if you have a proper W shaped spring installed under the follower in a non drop box magazine. No need for RUM boxes, special followers, incantations, etc.

The muzzle energy falls just north of 4500 Ft lbs , recoil foot lbs in a 9-3/4 lb rifle feels pretty damn mild compared to a Lott and a having 5 rounds available could be handy in a gun fight.

Got something on your mind there Bob?

This sounds like a cool project, but two things caught my attention...
1. I curious why not a .416 rather than a .404. I would think that .416" bullets are even more available than .423".
2. Uh oh. Maybe I might have to start thinking about an STA or .340 Weatherby on a 700...

Wouldn't that wildcat be very similar to the .400 H&H?

http://ezine.nitroexpress.info/NickuduFiles/ASG-PDF/400H&H.pdf

hbb: Pretty sure it would, from what I remember about the 400H&H.Point is buying brass from H&H could get a bit dicey and expensive; whereas 375H&H for forming is all over the place.

KDK: Can't answer your comment, except to say maybe 416 still leaves a shoulder...is that good or bad? I don't really know...this is a case that needs that useless belt in any event. I guess 404 bullets are made by enough outfits today.

What I found interesting is the velocity of 2225 with the 400 gr bullet and (what?)only 68-69 gr of powder? That will translate into a very manageable package from a recoil perspective. I bet this thing will be sweet to shoot even from a handy 22" barrel.

Bob I'm working late tonight but will post the pics after!

More comments and addendum from D'Arcy:


"Message flagged Tuesday, June 12, 2012 8:23 AMBob
Another reason I thought of wildcat for some time was cost and availability of affordable components then (1976-77) and now. In 76 I could have no sooner bought a magnum Mauser as flown to Mars. Where as the Pre-64 long magnum Mod-70 was at least affordable and there were a lot of them. This action allowed a 4th round down with the H&H box, had a bolt handle that allowed a low mounted scope from the factory, good trigger & safety, etc. As I stated before it was a .423 bullet issue that made me place it on the back shelf. Meanwhile the 416 Taylor could be used in a Std Mag Mod-70 and George Hoffman was quietly working on his 416. All great rounds but problematic to get to feed and in a std rifle with std rails and a magazine that only allowed 3 down.


I now have no doubt you could equal the original Rigby performance which the world seems to consider standard bearer. If you're on budget and saving most of your hard earned tin for that trip to Zim and still want to build a 40 caliber it won't cost anymore for a 423 barrel and with a Mod-70 you won't be going to extremes for gumsithing and get 5 total rounds. As to head stamps ? One could order a run from Hornady perhaps or engrave the barrel with 404-375 H&H and tell the customs official in Harari that the 404 is the weight of the bullet as everything else on the case base would be correct. I have hunted 4 countries in Africa and never had my ammo looked at. Granted if you lost your ammo your'e screwed, I've only lost Guns, never the ammo.


Honestly I feel it makes as much sense as the Mashburn, which really does make sense. Feel free to post what you want.


DArcy Echols"

Cheaper easily found brass would be a real perk to going the wildcat route.

The H&H brass is hideously expensive.

Good stuff, Bob.

Thanks,

DF

DF: Thought you would like this.

Nice 40 cal cartridge! I plead ignorance, having "0" experience with anything over 375....have only pecked at the range with some 458's, a 416 or two and a 470 NE.But interesting for one who wants or needs a 40 cal.

Notice D'Arcy's emphasis on function and mag capacity.

D'Arcy is an impressive guy and is very generous with his time and expertise. I sure enjoyed my conversation with him.

Function is king with DG guns, no doubt. With the .300 RUM M-70 donor I'm using for my .404 J. project, the mag box, reportedly, is a bit wider than the std. mag. box and, of course, is full mag. length. So, with the rails and follower all set up for the fatter RUM case, a good smith should be able to make the parent round, the .404 J., work. The RUM's have a .534" rim, so the full width (.545") .404 J. rim will require opening the bolt face.

With the std. mag. action, .534" bolt face and std. mag box, a .423" bullet from a .375 H&H case makes a lot of sense. A .404-375 should perform right with the .404 J., unless one was trying to run up the pressure and make a Wby out of it. Then, the bigger case would outperform the smaller one. With 400 gr. bullets at 2,400 fps, there should be no difference.

DF

Thanks Tanner!

DF: I think that is what D'Arcy has in mind.

Possible can of worms.
This starts out neato, but on reflection, what about the std. length actions, opened up for 300 Weatherby's and 300 H&H's? You always will have the bugaboo about bottom bolt lug abutment set back. This has doomed the majority of P.H. Harry Selby's 416 Rigby Mauser's cohorts. He is smart enough to never have over loaded his. But the South Gate F.N. 300 Weatherby's were too hot to begin with.

My .416 wildcat has two grains of H2O more capacity than a Taylor, and maybe a bit too much case taper, as it's a clone of the 8 x 68S Schuler, made from a 375 Ruger parent. The very last improvement I made before leaving for Africa in May, was to fit a Brownell's 375 H&H follower, and XP mag. spring. I ground off about half the difference between the H&H and the orig. 8mm Mauser follower. I would much rather keep more steel in the receiver, although I did have my "bubba'd mag box lengthened a bit. I can load a 3.5" O.A.L. round, but not the 375 H&H lengths. My rifle build, is as close as I could come to Layne Simpson's 2005 review of Mr. Selby's rifle, now residing in Louisiana.

So, in a commercial L.A. action rifle set up for the 375 H&H, this is right on. In a rifle, commercial or not, modified for the longer 375H&H, maybe it's not such a good idea.

But two positive take aways, out of three possible problems, are pretty good, for d'Arcy's concept. In a way the .416 makes more sense, but getting rid of those vestigial shoulders, and decreasing the case body taper, will make the 404 bore shine, here.

But I need my shoulders as my cases head space on them. Right now, a 416 Taylor will not chamber as my shoulders are only .483 inches, in diameter. Dave Kiff at PT&G said that we could always grind another reamer to make less case taper, but we couldn't go the other way.

This idea of d'Arcy's could use the same solution, to split the differences between his wildcat, and the straight sided, Remington 416 Magnum. That is, if cartridge setback starts to jam up his bolt. Later this summer, I'll be watching carefully for this exact same problem to rear it's head, as I work up hotter loads in my 416 wildcat. BTW, I feel my wildcat feeds really nice through my modified feed rails in my Colombian 30 Mauser action. This same slickness, has also kept the 8 x 68S alive and well.

The space between the stripper clip slot and the notch, R.Famage put into the front receiver ring, gives this O.A.L. of 3.5 inches. Of course I don't use the stripper clips, so I gain their thicknesses, when I load a round straight down into my magazine. I believe that d'Arcy's wildcat, and the 400 H&H, will both have shorter O.A.L.'s, than the parent 375 H&H does. So this should be another positive outcome for his design, using the present crop of 404 bullets, with cannelures.

Indy: Interesting post....maybe D'Arcy can comment on some of your points.

No personal experiences myself since I have not had a Mauser converted to H&H length other than a Whitworth....but I know that lower recoil abutment thing on lengthened M98's has been a subject of conversation for years.

Note that lots of the emphasis here seems directed toward M70's...and I know d'Arcy likes to work with the Classic,which is a bit different than a converted M98.

In any event, this strikes me as being a low pressure round(?)Any thoughts on that?

From strictly a builder's, or rifle loony's, standpoint I think D'Arcy's ideas make good sense - but unless you just love the idea of having something different, the additional troubles of dealing with wildcats doesn't appeal to many folks who simply want to go hunting and can purchase factory made 416 Rem or 404 ammo and components off the shelf.
Now if D'arcy wants to make a SAAMI spec .404 Echols he could compete directly with Russell Wilkins and the 400 H&H.

Phil I can't disagree with anything you say.... For many(most) folks it is not worth the extra bother.

I have had only two wildcats my whole life....I will say that it does add something to the handloading side of the sport....something a bit creative,even if duplicitous,and a hair more fun than stuffing shells.It is neat to see a project sorta fall together.

I made some early dummy rounds for the AR thread. Idea was to eliminate any shoulder and have a simple to make straight walled case as a 'little brother' to the 458Lott that would feed with absolute ease. Mild recoil at 450/400NE levels was an added bonus.
Cheers...
Con
PS... Added bonus was that it was hoped a 375H&H reamer with 423" neck/throaters could be used to chamber, and Lee 375H&H dies honed out. A ghost shoulder was also spoken of early like in the 470Capstick.

D'Arcy with the rig, probably not the typical stock for such a round... grin



Couple rounds...



And a group...

Those rounds look like they coould KILL sumthin! Good shooting whoever was behind that thing, too.

Tanner thanks for posting the pictures!

Safariman: It was D'Arcy who did the shooting.

Con nailed the rationale behind the cartridge....moderate recoil with a 400 gr bullet,easy conversion and feeding in a 375 action.Looks like it works in a 700 as well.