Home Forums Hunting & Shooting BPCR Why doncha y'all..

...shoot paper patched bullets in competition? An honest question, not trying to start a war, they seem to work to some advantage for me, at least at shorter ranges....

Dan,
Everything that I have read seems to agree with you that they are at least as accurate as GG bullets. I watched Michael Rix shooting some at 500M a few weeks ago that performed well (but not better) than some GGs. I particularly like the idea of a smooth bullet and it's lower drag at the longer ranges.
The only reason that I have not tried them yet is, as much shooting that I do, I can barely keep up on my loading as it is. Much less adding another time consuming step.
I am intrigued by the idea of shooting a groovless, unlubed bullet in a bore that has been wiped with a light lube though- something like Dan T. was fooling with last year (but seems to have given up on since going to a mini-groove.). I guess that is what being a gun Crank is all about- Ain't it GREAT! ...Dennis <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Dan and Dennis,

In reality, all the time you lose with paper patch bullets is the time it takes to cut the paper. Once bullets are cast, paper cut, the time used to load a complete cartridge is about the same as using a grease groove bullet. Now there are variations of pp bullets that require more time such as, grease cookies, wet wrapping. If you are loading powder wad and ball, which is best, the process goes very quickly. And you don't have to wipe your hands and loaded ammo to remove the residual grease.

TL

You suggesting 're-inventing' the wheel <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

No re-inventing the internet here...just seemed like there was a notable lack of discussion on the subject. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Where is my soap box?

I've done a little cast bullet shooting, mostly pistol but a fair bit of CF smokeless stuff, .358 Win., .30-30, and a few others. From my neophyte's perspective it looks like you fellas have crossed the T's and dotted the I's on cast bullets. Suffice it to say I'm on the upslope of that learning curve. Some of the threads here on the subject come near enough to dazzling me that I bought some new shades a few days back... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Er, well...paper patch...I took a primer from(one stick drum roll) from P. Matthews, got started with a bit of apprehension and quickly found it isn't that difficult or time consuming. I do wet patch FWIW. Talked to a guy out in Missoula, lived about a block from Malfunction Junction as I recall...sorry I don't recall the name at the moment. Anyhoo, he kindly dispensed a few tips that got me closer to the truth, for my gun anyway. Went thru about 6 evolutions of patch technique within the same number of loadings...no twist, about 1/16" overhang at the base, tuck in under. Goes to the break from shank to ogive, not a fraction more. Card wad, don't like the cup base design I had dies made for, but the flat base is just the sweetest shooter. Smallest group is .85" at 100, average is a bit closer to 1.5", for 3, 5, 7, whatever...sorry...it's stainless AND synthetic...AND it has a Millett SP-1 red dot sight. Now if ya gotta barf, go ahead... It began life as a truck gun, in a VERY leaky truck.

Use a paper cutter to slice 9# onion skin to proper width, stack 'em up and cut the angle as lined out on the top strip with a template...50 patches to a sheet of paper, .000 +/- overlap, doesn't seem that critical. I can wrap 50 bullets per hour while drunk...no, I mean while blindfolded. Yeah, and when the sun's up maybe twice that. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

So, I don't know how they do with BP, but they do work well in smokeless cases, ESPECIALLY ONES WITH HIGH PRESSURE. Well, pressures higher than you're fiddling with in the BPCR guns. Matthews says that 2000 fps is possible with dead soft lead in a paper jacket...I doubt that but don't know for sure. My work with this has involved a Ruger bolt gun in .44 Mag, 1:20 twist, and have observed/shot a Marlin 1895 CB gun in .45-70 in the same format using 510 gr RNCB that is scary accurate, twist unknown. Have also dinked around with the .405 Winchester a little, shoots as well as jacketed bullets, all velocities around 1600 by Chrony, excursions above not checked.

One thing I experienced with the .44...well there's a lot really...

Small case, please leave room for powder...early on, either stripping(mild) or deformed bases at 1700 fps, not sure which. Bullets of 300 grains, dead soft lead...acts about like a BC of .240 on average, that with a velocity of 1535 fps average, that being the most accurate loading found over the course of some 550 rounds fired. Don't know if that's good or bad for caliber, but for bottom country still hunting it does the trick. Weights available up to 350 grains if you want some BTW, .422" diameter and a very slight taper of about .0005, base to ogive. I'll have to check to be sure but I think the bullet length is .843", meplat is .260". Would do better on BC without that, but it's a hunting bullet.

No leading, no lubrisizer(finger lube after patched), only a very light engraving impression on the shank after firing(Take that CSI!). With smokeless loads I run ES's in the barely double digit range, SD's of 5-7 point something. Only leading you'll ever see is if you screw up a patch with too much crimp, even a taper crimp which is what I use. Two patches of Hoppe's #9 just to be sure, and it's clean. So that's smokeless...

What's the pitch on black, if any of you have tried this? All of this is why I inquired about using black in more modern cases such as the .444 Marlin. Figure that one would be a hoot with a 350 grain bullet anyway, black or smokeless. Just so's you know, the micro-groove rifling those degenerates put in their guns will shoot paper patch okay. KEY item for the evdeavor is proper sizing in any case. Smokeless...go about bore to bore +.0005" for the lead, fill the grooves with paper, mebbe a tad more...I wouldn't size 'em afterwards but you can if you need too, maybe a couple of thou... heard that black needs a couple of thou LESS than bore diameter but haven't gone there as of yet... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I've heard too that velocities of 3000 fps with alloy bullets is doable...still a galaxy far far away for me...gotta keep an eye on twist rates when you do that I'll betcha...

That is all....for now.

This is too simple a process to reinvent it. Brent Danielson has perhaps the best treatise on the subject. http://www.iastate.edu/~codi/PPB/PPB.html Better than Matthews by a long shot. Where they both come up short, IMO, is not mentioning or affording little coverage to dry wrapping. My experience has shown me that dry wrapping a straight sided, flat based bullet is by far superior to any other method/bullet combination. Groups tighten right up and the fliers disappear. Always wrap to bore size and I don't fiddle with smokeless powder. Best group to date with a 500 gr hunting bullet of my design is 2-1/4", 5 shot @ 200 yds.

TL

Common information I have read seems to indicate that paper-patched bullets wear rifling more than lubed bullets... what about this <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Dan,

We need to hear from those who have worn their barrels out using paper patched bullets. I've been using them since the early eighties and could not detect any wear in my RB. However, I don't have an air gage to check for wear. I would challenge anyone who comes forth and makes the claim by asking for empirical data that shows the barrel size before and after the use of pp bullets. It's just an old rifleman's tale.

For me, it's not an issue.

TL

Not likely to have documentation on that one dropped on our heads soon I'll venture. I do believe that if you aren't selective on the paper type you can polish a bore real quick. Glossy papers have kaolin in them for pigment purposes, it is very abrasive. Onion skin, tracing paper and dress pattern paper will fill most needs, used them all at one point or another. OS is the best in my eye, but there may be better.

The dry wrap...I tried that but had an awful time getting them to hold still for seating...undoubtedly overlooked something there. This was done without a twist in the wrap, trying to fold the patch over the base as I mentioned earlier. What I did to say farethewell to flyers was to degrease the bullets before wet wrapping(water only). Had a booger of a time with that before I tried it. Four shots touching, or real close, number 5 somewhere else looking for virgin paper to smack. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

That's a pretty fair group at 200 I'd say, for any gun! Have read Brent's web site...long time back...should revisit to see if there's anything new there. He does a fair bit of long range target work from what I understand...he and another fellow cooked up some Hindenberg awhile back with reported BC of .440 IIRC...not too shabby.

Dan,

I wish I could be more specific on dry wrapping but all I can say is that the same mechanics are used as for wet wrapping. One thing for sure is you can get a very tight wrap far easier dry. You are being more consistent. It is that reason I think they work so much better. Wet paper is very sensitive to stretch and tearing. This could be the real bugaboo that you are eliminating by wrapping dry. Also, I have about .060 overhang on the base of the bullet. You just gotta practice and once you get the feel for it you won't look back.

TL

Well, back to the bench. You got me all excited with the challenge of it... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

DD; (re:the link to Danielsons info as posted by timberlake)
you know why I do not receive pix, but only boxes with a small box in the upper-left corner with a triangle, circle and square in it?

About 35 rounds of paper patch and my bore dimensions increased from.448 to .453 I wonder if it had anything to do with the 320 grit paper I used for patches?
Jim

I calculate that after firing 1,064 rounds (at the rate quoted) one could now fire .600 Nitro Express bullets <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> ...some ram-thumper...Cool!

Dunno for sure but would guess it has to do with server capacity or your computer....dial up? Did look at the link briefly, pics are normal for me. Might also have to do with your security settings but that is a wild a$$ guess. Some pics will not transmit if you have limited processing power or speed.

Sandpaper might work, depends on which side the grit is on.

Ah Ha! Went and looked a bit, and it the process found another link to another of his pages... the bullet I mentioned...somewhere in cyberspace...sometime or another...

http://www.iastate.edu/~codi/PPB/gd-ppb.htm

scroll down the page a bit, has some drag curve info you might find interesting.

D.D.

I figured it out, while your building that 70' dock,#1 on your honey do list, your mind wonders, thus threads like this,"Why doncha y'all.. pops out. Which is were your saying of,"I'm not a complete idiot, I have missing parts",comes from.Easy huh.

Kelley O.

Aye, the idle mind and all of that...BTW, it's "I'm not a complete idiot, some of my parts are missing." You have passed the memory test though.

I'm still awaiting...and probably without hope...why is the art not used more(assuming it is not) than plain ol' nekkid lead. I'm thinking that the accuracy is about equal, knowin' the bullet form has to be more conducive to better BC for a given Sectional Density...and that I firmly believe patched bullets can tolerate higher pressures and velocity... 'tis a mystery to me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Dan, the real reason that paper patch is not common in silhouette is that it is not as accurate as a grease groove bullet. I believe there is potential for paper patch to be loaded in such a way as to be competitive, but it is more difficult than grease groove. The other reason is that traditional wisdom holds that paper patch loses its accuracy in a fouled bore. Silhouette shooters mostly use a blow tube in a fouled barrel so I think they have stayed away from paper patch. With bore pigs the potential is there for paper patch to form a following, it just hasn't happened yet.

SS

Well now, there's an answer I can wrap my brain around. Funny, I'd have thought it the other way around with black powder, my inexperience showing I suppose. I was thinking that wrapped paper is tougher that soft lead alloys.

Thanks for the illumination round! Perhaps I'll use the light to find another windmill to tilt at.