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I was at the range a couple of weeks ago with my Dad. We decided to bring out some 1903 Springfields along with a couple of scoped rifles. I shot some groups with a 1903 A3, the version with the rear receiver bridge mounted peep, and was amazed on how well it grouped. We were able to shoot sub-MOA groups with these rifles. We joked that these rifles grouped as well as some of our scoped hunting rifles. A light bulb flickered in my head.
I got home a few hours later and something was eating at me and I didn't know what it was. I decided to look through some boxes of magazines and found a few that I wanted to look at. Among the magazines was a Shooting Times special edition on the Winchester M70 and M94. I decided to flip through it and found an article called "Model 70s on the Trail" by Wayne Van Zwoll. In the article was a picture of a hunter in the kneeling position shooting a pre-64 M70 using a receiver mounted peep and what appeared to be an aftermarket front blade. The caption read "The Model 70 makes a fine open country rifle, even with open sights."
The light-bulb in my head came on full strength and its been on ever since. I believe I need a pre-64 with a straight combed stock and a receiver sight.
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 14,807
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2003
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I don't want to have to use iron sights on a hunting rifle. Of course we have all used them from our first .22 perhaps to other rifles including shooting some old military rifle.
Target identification is where a scope is far superior. Trying to identify some quarry in the shade bothers me.
Thus I would avoid a rifle where I had to use irons. To each his own.
By the way I agree that irons can shoot fine 'groups' however groups are not the only thing in hunting.
When I shot in the big bore leagues irons were required and I still have them for all of my target rifles including an old M70. When shooting prone the sights and rifle were so accurate that the spotter pin was hit all too often. When this happens on the 200 yd target they pull it as usual to post your shot placement. The spotter is a wooden pin about .30" in diameter pressed through a 3" or so paper disc. The problem is that the shot that hit the pin blew out a lot of the paper target and there is no place to hold the pin!
Thus I would lose time while they repaired my target and we only get 30 minutes for 25 shots plus sighters. Yes irons are accurate but that's not all there is to it.
For hunting give me a scope anyday.
All guns should be locked up when not in use!
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,249 Likes: 27
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,249 Likes: 27 |
I was at the range a couple of weeks ago with my Dad. We decided to bring out some 1903 Springfields along with a couple of scoped rifles. I shot some groups with a 1903 A3, the version with the rear receiver bridge mounted peep, and was amazed on how well it grouped. We were able to shoot sub-MOA groups with these rifles. We joked that these rifles grouped as well as some of our scoped hunting rifles. A light bulb flickered in my head.
I got home a few hours later and something was eating at me and I didn't know what it was. I decided to look through some boxes of magazines and found a few that I wanted to look at. Among the magazines was a Shooting Times special edition on the Winchester M70 and M94. I decided to flip through it and found an article called "Model 70s on the Trail" by Wayne Van Zwoll. In the article was a picture of a hunter in the kneeling position shooting a pre-64 M70 using a receiver mounted peep and what appeared to be an aftermarket front blade. The caption read "The Model 70 makes a fine open country rifle, even with open sights."
The light-bulb in my head came on full strength and its been on ever since. I believe I need a pre-64 with a straight combed stock and a receiver sight. That phase will soon pass as it did for me.....I sold mine on fleabay after the urge subsided......
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,213
Campfire Regular
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I figure that if people can muzzleload with irons, why not with a normal rifle? I don't use my rifle scope for anything besides as a sighting device. I do all of my target ID with binoculars.
I have quite a bit of experience using apertures from field positions. Maybe I'll go mess with the 1903 some more and see where I end up.
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23,143 Likes: 6
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23,143 Likes: 6 |
I started out with irons, went to increasingly 'bigger and better' scopes, now I've come full circle and use nothing but aperture sights on all my hunting rifles (with a scope in a QD mount for a couple of them, carried along for the ride but rarely used). Lighter handier rifles result, making for increased time in the hands where they belong and not slung over the shoulder. The quality of my hunting experiences certainly hasn't diminished as a result, and in some ways has increased. Dare to break away from the herd! 
"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz
"Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,211 Likes: 26
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,211 Likes: 26 |
Dan360,
About 10 years ago I took a pre-'64 .270 Winchester with an old steel Lyman receiver sight to Quebec and killed a bull caribou at 350 yards. Of course, you'll hear from a lot of people who obviously don't use iron sights that the bead will "cover up" an animal at that range, making the shot impossible, but I knew from practice that the bullet would land right in the middle of the bead at 300-350, so just put it on the bull's chest and pulled the trigger.
I hunt with iron sights at least some of the time each year, and once did an all-irons African safari. It was a lot of fun, partly because I didn't have to worry about whether the samn scope was being jiggled out of zero by bouncing around in the Land Cruiser, or its lenses were getting dusty.
Killed six animals with 8 shots, out to 225 years. One of the extra shots went into my Cape buffalo (he was dead from the first but hadn't quit yet) and the other was a low miss on an impala at about 175 yards. The herd had been spooked a little by some giraffes that had spotted me crawling along on the ground, and I got in a hurry and pulled the shot low.
A standard-weight pre-'64 with an aperture sight is nice because it isn't as heavy as when scoped!
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,627
Campfire Regular
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Dan, I had the same bug you do, and now my pre-64 FWT (straight comb)in .30-06 wears a redfield sight, with the factory bead. I can still shoot 2 MOA with it, from field positions. It's a MOA gun or better with a scope, but my longest shot at a deer to date is 110 yards, so why worry? I'm looking forward to taking it out for deer, and I don't worry about target ID so much, since I carry binos. It launches a 180 gr. Hornady to 2700 or so with RL22. good luck if you go that route.
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Joined: Dec 2008
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Campfire Regular
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A standard-weight pre-'64 with an aperture sight is nice because it isn't as heavy as when scoped!
Yeah, my pre-64 300 Win Mag weighs 8 1/4 pounds without scope or cartridges. With scope, sling and cartridges, its pushing 9 1/2 pounds. It balances well, but it also cuts off circulation to my arm after a while. This rifle would be a candidate for a receiver site if the stock had a lower comb.
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,194 Likes: 1
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,194 Likes: 1 |
The ultimate pre-64 with iron sights (but hoowee she is heavy): ![[Linked Image]](http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/wildhobbybobby/100_2229.jpg) Shoots good, though...
Last edited by wildhobbybobby; 07/02/12.
Life is like a purple antelope on a field of tuna fish...
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,676
Campfire Regular
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Joined: May 2004
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Dan360, I've been thinking along the same lines, to enjoy the experience as opposed to being locked onto getting a big(or bigger) animal. Age is helping me think that way, finally!
The rifle with irons would certainly be light (er), handy and rugged. I will first play around with my winchester 69A with a receiver sight to see how well I can do. I'm thinking a couple hundred yards should be reasonable with about any decent deer hunting cartridge in a bolt action.
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 631
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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I can shoot good groups on a black and white target at 100 yards in good light with an aperture sight. Trouble is the deer are rarely seen in good light, they are camoflaged and they are usually a lot further away. Thus I use a scope.
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Joined: Aug 2010
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,249 Likes: 27 |
Nah Marc.....that makes too much sense..... 
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 674
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2006
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Dan360 scratch that itch now you will enjoy it. Muledeer knows of what he speaks. I have many receiver sighted rifles and enjoy them and have no trouble in hitting what I shoot at. I should say that I do have my own KD range and shoot every day to stay in practice for hunting season.
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Joined: May 2005
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NICE rifle. Very classy. 
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I can shoot good groups on a black and white target at 100 yards in good light with an aperture sight. Trouble is the deer are rarely seen in good light, they are camoflaged and they are usually a lot further away. Thus I use a scope. The deer hunting areas where I would consider irons are wheat and barley fields. The deer are dark gray and stick out like a sore thumb. I might also try it on elk, which are fairly easy to spot when they are there. I'll have to come up with a good candidate to scratch this itch. It will almost have to be an older rifle because most rifles now have combs that are too high/straight. My Dad has an FN commercial Mauser I might borrow if I can't come up with anything else.
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Joined: Oct 2003
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Then it ought to work for you. The Mauser would do the job too.
I bought an old Redfield receiver sight several years ago to put on my pre-64 Model 70. At the time it wasn't my primary hunting rifle and I thought it would be fun to use it. I never did and now the rifle is my main hunting rifle again so the scope is going to stay on it.
Now I am probably going to modify or make a base to put the sight on my 1895 Winchester.
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Joined: Dec 2008
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That will be cool. My Dad has a Winchester 1886 lightweight that will probably get a receiver sight someday.
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 233
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
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Posts: 233 |
I have a PF Model 70 30/06 carbine that has a peep sight on it. Great mountain gun as she is 7 pounds all up. I had it at the range one day and was shooting off hand at the 200 yard 10 inch steel plate and was spanking it with every round. One guy that was watching me said "thats some good shooting" and then another guy down the line replies "He's cheating because he's got a peep sight"...what? I like peeps and have a few guns in my safe with them. Not great for low light but not all my hunting is done in low light. Andy ![[Linked Image]](http://i490.photobucket.com/albums/rr262/C_andy460/IMGP2676.jpg)
Last edited by 429CJMach1; 07/06/12.
Women really don't like men just some make better pets than others.
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![[Linked Image]](http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1105/5105022665_82ea46cf27.jpg) This rifle was built 36 years ago for hunting and has never worn a scope. A few times I had thought about adding a scope, but I've enjoyed the simplicity without, so I've let it be. Best
�I've never met a genius. A genius to me is someone who does well at something he hates. Anybody can do well at something he loves -- it's just a question of finding the subject.�
- Clint Eastwood
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Campfire Regular
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Its not a Pre'64 Winchester, but sort of close - a Brno ZKK600 in .270. Shot this fallow buck last week at 80 yards offhand with the stock factory rear sight and bead. I don't get the stigma against open sights, I enjoy hunting with them for years now and rarely come across a situation that I can't handle, either with open sights or a receiver sight. And the joy of not worrying about a scope or having to deal with the extra weight and awkward handling...its hard to go back to using one, just for those reasons, expecially when you do a lot of backpack hunting. The idea of not using a scope obviously causes some people anxiety. It's mostly unfounded; with a bit of practice it will become apparent that the limitations are not nearly as severe as people make out. ![[Linked Image]](http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c271/Carlsen/fallowtwo.jpg)
Last edited by CarlsenHighway; 07/10/12.
"A person that carries a cat home by the tail will receive information that will always be useful to him." Mark Twain
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