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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,562 Likes: 1 |
As an American by choice, the last proposition I would defend, and least of all in an election year, is that we are anything but a nation of savvy consumers. One remarkable aspect of Korth revolvers is going beyond the cost/benefit analysis characteristic of market-oriented products. They are made with pride characteristic of pre-WWI DWM and Mauser, or pre-WWII Colt and S&W. Of American handguns of post-WWII production, only Philip Lichtman's LM4 Semmerling exhibits this quality. Yes, I am taking into full account Freedom Arms with their Ruger-cast frames.
I remember seeing a Korth in a German catalog that a German friend used to send me 30+ years ago. I was enamored by the looks of the Korth, but that was a long time ago. Germans have a tendency to over engineer things and the Korth is one of those. I hear also of Smith and Wesson and Colt handguns that wear out, but I have never met the individual that wore the gun out. Everything has a point of wear and breakage, but let's be realistic, a Python or S&W model 29 will outlast 95% of the people that buy/use them. That said, the more I look at German guns, specifically those of high embellishment, The more I tend to think of them as Gaudy. After a good look at a Winchester model 21, I can see American over-engineering and I then realize how well the Brits were at designing and making the finest SXS shotguns in the world. That said, their rifles/pistols stink, The Korth is eye candy for the window shopper, but if you spent the same money on a couple Pythons, I'm sure for the money spent, you would have a lot of python left over when the Korth was done. Besides that the erect posture of the Korth is near hideous.
![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/G9RDVKXr/DSCN4329.jpg)
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Everything has a point of wear and breakage, but let's be realistic, a Python or S&W model 29 will outlast 95% of the people that buy/use them. I'll see your 95% of casual shooters and raise you by stipulating that Korth makes revolvers for the dedicated 1%. Here are my photos of a Korth revolver action, in a 1985 "Profi" revolver, the last vintage hewing to the exact mechanical specifications of Willi Korth's original design. Ironically, the matte sandblasted finish responsible for lowering the cost of this workmanlike revolver by 30%, found no traction in the marketplace. Korth's customers prefer to pay through the nose for their luxury. ![[Linked Image]](http://pics.livejournal.com/larvatus/pic/003w1gbp/s640x480.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://pics.livejournal.com/larvatus/pic/003w3ax6/s640x480.jpg) High resolution photos are posted at the link above. -- Michael  massmeans.com | Zeleny post.harvard.edu | 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 | 323.363.1860 | http://www.subrah.comhttp://larvatus.livejournal.com | "All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,881 |
I recall reading alot of stuff by a guy named Elmer Keith. He mentioned once that Doug Wesson managed to fire his original .357 Magnum about 125,000 times with Western factory 158 gr. magnum ammo and still pass factory specs for the gun......
Then there is my own Smith 29. It's had from 8000-10,000 rds of full power, DA loads through it and it needed a clylinder bolt replacement according to the factory. I didn't notice that, but they did. Was done with no extra charge, BTW. I also got a new rear sight leaf. That darn cheap paint used for the white outline had washed away during cleaning. Again, no extra charge.
That gun would put six rds. into 1.5 inches, outside spread at 35 yds..... That's factory 240 gr. SP ammo.
Then there was my old, 60's made K-38 that would put six Western Match loads into 3/4's of an inch at 25 yds., also outside spread.
Yes sir. I sure don't know what I've been missing. E
Last edited by Eremicus; 07/14/12.
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
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I recall reading alot of stuff by a guy named Elmer Keith. He mentioned once that Doug Wesson managed to fire his original .357 Magnum about 125,000 times with Western factory 158 gr. magnum ammo and still pass factory specs for the gun...... Please see the previously referenced account of a comparison test of a Korth revolver vs. a S&W M28. Looks like it took only 200 rounds of heavy hunting loads, which the Korth withstood without budging, for the M28 frame to open up. I'll take experiments over anecdotage. -- Michael massmeans.com | Zeleny post.harvard.edu | 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 | 323.363.1860 | http://www.subrah.comhttp://larvatus.livejournal.com | "All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 11,812 Likes: 7 |
After reading all of that, I'll take my freedom arms any day over that. Thanks.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,955 |
I like the experiment/anectdote analogy.
Please show us your hundred-year old Korth or at least compare durability to a Colt King Cobra, Dan Wesson or Ruger.
Nice Mazerati....don't scratch the paint.
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
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I like the experiment/anectdote analogy.
Please show us your hundred-year old Korth or at least compare durability to a Colt King Cobra, Dan Wesson or Ruger.
Nice Mazerati....don't scratch the paint. I would gladly split the ammo costs in pitting the Korth revolver shown above against any challengers. I own no MK III or MK V Series Colts, Dan Wessons, or Rugers, but feel free to bring your own. -- Michael massmeans.com | Zeleny post.harvard.edu | 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 | 323.363.1860 | http://www.subrah.comhttp://larvatus.livejournal.com | "All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Wow.. the Korth is made, sold, bought AND supported by the same type of people - makes sense. I never knew what Korths were being sold for until this thread. I never BOTHERED to know because they show no elegance, no flowing lines and are as butt ugly as, as, as, well... as BUTT UGLY AS A EUROPEAN REVOLVER! Heck, you could've told me it was made in South America by Taurus and I would've believed you - gladly concurred even. Call me stupid but I like the lines of my ol' Stevens single shot more than that Kraftwerk neon-licht laser beams-outta-my-ass-shooter. It must be "an acquired taste"... praying to the altar of airs of superiority - very totalitarian, knowing what's best for the masses. ![[Linked Image]](http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh178/bankayhoodlum/IMG_0397.jpg)
Last edited by alukban; 07/14/12.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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I recall reading alot of stuff by a guy named Elmer Keith. He mentioned once that Doug Wesson managed to fire his original .357 Magnum about 125,000 times with Western factory 158 gr. magnum ammo and still pass factory specs for the gun...... Please see the previously referenced account of a comparison test of a Korth revolver vs. a S&W M28. Looks like it took only 200 rounds of heavy hunting loads, which the Korth withstood without budging, for the M28 frame to open up. I'll take experiments over anecdotage. -- Michael massmeans.com | Zeleny post.harvard.edu | 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 | 323.363.1860 | http://www.subrah.comhttp://larvatus.livejournal.com | "All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett Of course, if a half-million users offer up the same anecdotes, someone's "experiments" seem pretty hollow......
You can roll a turd in peanuts, dip it in chocolate, and it still ain't no damn Baby Ruth.
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Joined: Jun 2007
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,562 Likes: 1 |
I recall reading alot of stuff by a guy named Elmer Keith. He mentioned once that Doug Wesson managed to fire his original .357 Magnum about 125,000 times with Western factory 158 gr. magnum ammo and still pass factory specs for the gun...... Please see the previously referenced account of a comparison test of a Korth revolver vs. a S&W M28. Looks like it took only 200 rounds of heavy hunting loads, which the Korth withstood without budging, for the M28 frame to open up. I'll take experiments over anecdotage. A Korth may be made for the 1%, I would bet it certainly is, but it still falls into the German arrogance that has been present throughout the ages. Germany made some real nice guns during 2 world wars, but Americans still defeated them with our junk and American ingenuity. Over engineering is what this speaks of, I would take a Korth if offered a Korth or a Python for free. I would then sell the Korth to that 1% that thinks they need a gun that will never wear out, then buy a Python and bank the other money. But quite honestly any revolver you would own in Germany would never wear out at the rate you can shoot them in Germany
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Joined: Mar 2010
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 11,812 Likes: 7 |
I recall reading alot of stuff by a guy named Elmer Keith. He mentioned once that Doug Wesson managed to fire his original .357 Magnum about 125,000 times with Western factory 158 gr. magnum ammo and still pass factory specs for the gun...... Please see the previously referenced account of a comparison test of a Korth revolver vs. a S&W M28. Looks like it took only 200 rounds of heavy hunting loads, which the Korth withstood without budging, for the M28 frame to open up. I'll take experiments over anecdotage. A Korth may be made for the 1%, I would bet it certainly is, but it still falls into the German arrogance that has been present throughout the ages. Germany made some real nice guns during 2 world wars, but Americans still defeated them with our junk and American ingenuity. Over engineering is what this speaks of, I would take a Korth if offered a Korth or a Python for free. I would then sell the Korth to that 1% that thinks they need a gun that will never wear out, then buy a Python and bank the other money. But quite honestly any revolver you would own in Germany would never wear out at the rate you can shoot them in Germany Very well put!
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
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I recall reading alot of stuff by a guy named Elmer Keith. He mentioned once that Doug Wesson managed to fire his original .357 Magnum about 125,000 times with Western factory 158 gr. magnum ammo and still pass factory specs for the gun...... Please see the previously referenced account of a comparison test of a Korth revolver vs. a S&W M28. Looks like it took only 200 rounds of heavy hunting loads, which the Korth withstood without budging, for the M28 frame to open up. I'll take experiments over anecdotage. Of course, if a half-million users offer up the same anecdotes, someone's "experiments" seem pretty hollow...... Would that be the anecdotes about one's S&W M29 needing a new bolt after "8000-10,000 rds of full power, DA loads through it"? Can you cite anything else equally irrelevant to the referenced experimental comparison of the Korth to the S&W N-frame, both chambered in .357 Magnum? -- Michael massmeans.com | Zeleny post.harvard.edu | 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 | 323.363.1860 | http://www.subrah.comhttp://larvatus.livejournal.com | "All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett
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Joined: Jun 2007
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,955 |
I like the experiment/anectdote analogy.
Please show us your hundred-year old Korth or at least compare durability to a Colt King Cobra, Dan Wesson or Ruger.
Nice Mazerati....don't scratch the paint. I would gladly split the ammo costs in pitting the Korth revolver shown above against any challengers. I own no MK III or MK V Series Colts, Dan Wessons, or Rugers, but feel free to bring your own. -- Michael massmeans.com | Zeleny post.harvard.edu | 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 | 323.363.1860 | http://www.subrah.comhttp://larvatus.livejournal.com | "All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett You do realize you are comparing the durability of designs that go back over a hundred years and surface heat treatments, flat springs versus coils, the only improvements were to make the same parts larger? The real shocker is that despite a pile of advancements, these guns, even the weakest ones, have seen ten times more duty than the average Korth, its much like never seeing a 200 dollar knife at the local locker... I'm sure the Korth is of the highest order, of the finest materials, as well as the Manurhin; but over two World Wars and others, the western frontier, not to mention the widespread sporting use here with the wheelgun, despite a lack of vision, I fear you're tantamount to a Baptist telling a Catholic he knows nothing of Jesus....
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Over engineering is what this speaks of, I would take a Korth if offered a Korth or a Python for free. I would then sell the Korth to that 1% that thinks they need a gun that will never wear out, then buy a Python and bank the other money. But quite honestly any revolver you would own in Germany would never wear out at the rate you can shoot them in Germany As a point of fact, most German shooters practice a lot more than their American counterparts. Over the past five years, I imported about 300 guns from Germany. Most of them fall into two categories: unfired collectors' items or premium target guns with high round counts. For the vast majority of German gun owners, their firearms license ( Waffenbesitzkarte) is predicated on active membership in a shooting club. This licensing practice causes them to value ruggedness and durability, as witness the bargain online rates for maintenance-intensive used Colt Pythons in the range of 300-600 Euros. -- Michaelmassmeans.com | Zelenypost.harvard.edu | 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 | 323.363.1860 | http://www.subrah.comhttp://larvatus.livejournal.com | "All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett
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Joined: Jul 2012
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
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You do realize you are comparing the durability of designs that go back over a hundred years and surface heat treatments, flat springs versus coils, the only improvements were to make the same parts larger?
The real shocker is that despite a pile of advancements, these guns, even the weakest ones, have seen ten times more duty than the average Korth, its much like never seeing a 200 dollar knife at the local locker... Please refer to my original characterization of French and Swiss administrative markets that formally required extreme precision and durability orders of magnitude greater than that expected from and built into contemporaneous U.S. police sidearms. Willi Korth took this aesthetic even further, by hand grinding action parts out of tool steel, in the course of hard fitting at a 60 RC surface hardness rating, as witness these bolts in various stages of finishing: ![[Linked Image]](https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/314851_378291068892752_1803313339_n.jpg) Once again, throughout their history Smith & Wesson and Colt never had an economic incentive to forge and grind their gun parts out of tool steel. It was far more cost effective to sinter and machine softer materials, replacing the products under warranty in the rare instances of their being put to hard use. This practice qualifies their having seen "ten times more duty than the average Korth". At any rate, I am willing to test Willi Korth's guarantee that his revolvers maintain the same accuracy even after firing 50,000 full-powered .357 Magnum rounds, in a friendly wager over a comparison test against a Colt Python and/or a S&W N-frame revolver. Any takers? -- Michael massmeans.com | Zeleny post.harvard.edu | 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 | 323.363.1860 | http://www.subrah.comhttp://larvatus.livejournal.com | "All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
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I was a attending the Tulsa Gun Show several years ago and come upon the Korth table. I looked at the revolvers for a few moments and then asked the rep if I could handle one. He said, "No." Somewhat taken aback, I asked if it was just me who couldn't handle the revolvers or he was not letting anyone HANDle the HANDguns. "We don't let anyone here handle our revolvers.", was his reply or something to that effect. Warming to the absurdity of the situation, I said, "So let me get this straight. You have flown to the States from Europe. You have rented a booth at the biggest gun show in the world in an attempt, I assume, to sell handguns but you're not letting any prospective buyers hold the handguns in their hand, right?". Realizing, I think, how utterly, completely ridiculous he looked, he still answered, "Yes." I began laughing loudly at the total nonsense of this unforgetable minute of my life. The rep never cracked his serious expression. It was as if I were living a Monty Python skit. Absolutely priceless.
I could have easily bought every Korth revolver he had on his table with what I had in my pocket but vowed to myself that I would never own one under any circumstances. That company is run by some seriously silly people. That would have been Earl Sheehan, DBA " Korth USA". Earl hasn't had anything to do with Korth Waffen for at least five years. Their current owners didn't begrudge me handling their pre-sold $32,000 Damascus steel revolver at this year's SHOT Show: ![[Linked Image]](http://pics.livejournal.com/larvatus/pic/003f8w77/s640x480.jpg) I even got a free Korth baseball cap for showing them some of my revolvers. -- Michael massmeans.com | Zeleny post.harvard.edu | 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 | 323.363.1860 | http://www.subrah.comhttp://larvatus.livejournal.com | "All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Posts: 13,806 |
Zeleny:
Thank you for the information and the insights you have contributed here regarding Korth revolvers.
Before your postings, I came across the July, 2002 'Gun Tests' article on the Korth Combat revolver via an Internet search, but was unable to provide a working link to post on this thread.
The 'Gun Tests' 4 page pdf article provides an exhaustive and unbiased assessment of the Korth Combat revolver replete with specs and perspectives. Details within this 'article' require reading to appreciate this statement from 'Gun Tests' ...
"By virtue of its price tag, the Korth Combat Revolver isn't for everyone. But it is a superb gun, for which we found NO product to compare it against."
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Joined: Jun 2007
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
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Over engineering is what this speaks of, I would take a Korth if offered a Korth or a Python for free. I would then sell the Korth to that 1% that thinks they need a gun that will never wear out, then buy a Python and bank the other money. But quite honestly any revolver you would own in Germany would never wear out at the rate you can shoot them in Germany As a point of fact, most German shooters practice a lot more than their American counterparts. Over the past five years, I imported about 300 guns from Germany. Most of them fall into two categories: unfired collectors' items or premium target guns with high round counts. For the vast majority of German gun owners, their firearms license ( Waffenbesitzkarte) is predicated on active membership in a shooting club. This licensing practice causes them to value ruggedness and durability, as witness the bargain online rates for maintenance-intensive used Colt Pythons in the range of 300-600 Euros. This kind of flawed generalization weakens your credibility. Owning/shooting handguns in Germany is not an easy thing to do. Claiming that "Most" German shooters practice more than their American counterparts is ridiculous. You may want to go to Germany and try to find a handgun, much less shoot it.
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 13,547
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 13,547 |
I don't think anyone is arguing the Korth isn't a quality handgun, but to compare a $4,000 Korth straight-up to a $800 S&W or Colt production gun is ludicrous. The Korth uses better materials and has better fitting...really?
The Korth will never be a player in America, outside of the handful sold to the rich and curious, because for $4,000 an American can buy a full-house custom from one of the dozens of the world's best builders available to us. I'll take a Heirloom Precision, Bowen Classic Arms, Jim Garthwaite, and on, and on. Korth would be someplace around 100th place on that list, and even that would be charitable.
Forgive me my nonsense, as I also forgive the nonsense of those that think they talk sense.
Robert Frost
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
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I came across the July, 2002 'Gun Tests' article on the Korth Combat revolver via an Internet search, but was unable to provide a working link to post on this thread. Here goes: http://www.korthusa.com/brochure/gt_korth_revolver.pdf-- Michael massmeans.com | Zeleny post.harvard.edu | 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 | 323.363.1860 | http://www.subrah.comhttp://larvatus.livejournal.com | "All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett
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