I wasn't familiar with the Korth until a few hours ago. I've done some research and watched some vids and now I've got a new dream gun. Stunning. Anybody have one?
I've never shot one and it's been decades since I've handled one, but they used to have a good rep for being accurate.... albeit a bit pricey. I do recall them being too expensive for me to consider back then as I could build a custom gun for the same coin.
I was a attending the Tulsa Gun Show several years ago and come upon the Korth table. I looked at the revolvers for a few moments and then asked the rep if I could handle one. He said, "No." Somewhat taken aback, I asked if it was just me who couldn't handle the revolvers or he was not letting anyone HANDle the HANDguns. "We don't let anyone here handle our revolvers.", was his reply or something to that effect. Warming to the absurdity of the situation, I said, "So let me get this straight. You have flown to the States from Europe. You have rented a booth at the biggest gun show in the world in an attempt, I assume, to sell handguns but you're not letting any prospective buyers hold the handguns in their hand, right?". Realizing, I think, how utterly, completely ridiculous he looked, he still answered, "Yes." I began laughing loudly at the total nonsense of this unforgetable minute of my life. The rep never cracked his serious expression. It was as if I were living a Monty Python skit. Absolutely priceless.
I could have easily bought every Korth revolver he had on his table with what I had in my pocket but vowed to myself that I would never own one under any circumstances. That company is run by some seriously silly people.
Interesting. From what I understand, they start at $5k and go up from there. I can understand that they wouldn't want such a pricy gun scratched up or handled, but it would seem that they'd have a demo or three there for you to fondle, though. That's pretty silly.
From what I've seen, these revolvers are made like a fine watch. All parts are milled from a solid billet of steel and perfectly finished. All parts fit perfectly. And just as a rolex doesn't tell time any better than a timex, the korth probably won't turn a guy into a crack shot. But man, are they a work of art. Beautiful guns.
I really enjoy quality craftmanship and these korth revolvers just ooze it, even if it does come with a nose in the air and a snobby attitude.
I was a attending the Tulsa Gun Show several years ago and come upon the Korth table. I looked at the revolvers for a few moments and then asked the rep if I could handle one. He said, "No." Somewhat taken aback, I asked if it was just me who couldn't handle the revolvers or he was not letting anyone HANDle the HANDguns. "We don't let anyone here handle our revolvers.", was his reply or something to that effect. Warming to the absurdity of the situation, I said, "So let me get this straight. You have flown to the States from Europe. You have rented a booth at the biggest gun show in the world in an attempt, I assume, to sell handguns but you're not letting any prospective buyers hold the handguns in their hand, right?". Realizing, I think, how utterly, completely ridiculous he looked, he still answered, "Yes." I began laughing loudly at the total nonsense of this unforgetable minute of my life. The rep never cracked his serious expression. It was as if I were living a Monty Python skit. Absolutely priceless.
I could have easily bought every Korth revolver he had on his table with what I had in my pocket but vowed to myself that I would never own one under any circumstances. That company is run by some seriously silly people.
RS
THAT is sooooo stupid. Even the nice Folks at Holland And Holland allow the SCI attendees to handl thier guns. HEre is a photo of me (sorry for the fuzziness of the camera that we did not realize had gone bad until after the show) The price tag on this rifle was over $400,000.00 !!
Close up of that same rifle, and no, I could not afford it! Told the rep so and still I was allowed to handle it! Cool folks, them H&H guys.
Those are beautiful revolvers, and if one came up for sale/trade in a way that I could afford one I would love to have it but would not consider buying new from a co. that was so snooty.
They don't do anything for me. If I want a revolver that looks like a Colt Python, I'll buy a Colt Python. The fit and finish on the guns pictured does not appear, to me at least, to be commensurate with the asking price.
Those are all good points as well. I wonder who they are selling things things to?
I would think people who like to "have the best", what ever that means and those who like to brag that their exclusive, exotic, one of a kind revolver cost $5,000.
Those are all good points as well. I wonder who they are selling things things to?
I would think people who like to "have the best", what ever that means and those who like to brag that their exclusive, exotic, one of a kind revolver cost $5,000.
Evidently they're out there.
DF
Some snobby Euro prick has his personal AL'er to call up and order a dozen sight unseen.
People that want the best don't always mean people that brag about how much something costs. I'm sure plenty of us buy the best we can afford and don't then spend the rest of our time bragging about how much we spent.
I'd love to buy a dozen Korth revolvers, sight unseen, and never talk about price. Korth is now on my list of fine firearms to consider through my life of acquiring fine firearms.
Thanks to the OP for the heads up on a brand I wasn't familiar with.
I think it's working DF, the Doc has been treating me for about four months now, seems I have about twice the testosterone levels in my blood that a man of 50 years is supposed to be producing. LOL
I told him if I start thinkin Womens shoes and purses are pretty, I'm gonna haul whats left of my manly self down here and kick hiz a$$. we know each other, so it's all good. LOL
Nothing against those Euro wheel guns, but to me the revolver is an American innovation and all mine are made in the USA.
I have no itch for other than S&W, Colt and Ruger revolvers, preferring older ones. Some of mine are custom, all work done by American master craftsmen.
Those Linebaugh and Bowen guns are true works of art. And both smiths start with American guns and add good ole American craftsmanship to make them even better.
USA all the way for my wheelguns. Not recruiting, just saying.
Somewhere around here I've got an article Gun Tests magazine did on a Korth revolver. They were very impressed with it's workmanship. But it didn't shoot as well as my old K-38 Smith & Wesson did. Not even close if I remember right. So, I for one, am not at all interested. E
The engineering is interesting - SA adjustable for weight on the fly, DA adjustable for break (for staging), 'no tools' cylinder swapping, etc. I mostly think the Korth is kinda ugly with its gear shift cylinder release and vent rib. Yeah, I don't really like the looks of Pythons or Diamondbacks either.
Pretty is one thing, and performance is another. If they cost that much, they'd better have both. But the two I have shot didn't impress me at all. One of the two wouldn't shoot with my S&W 19-3 and neither could shoot with my Python. What's more, both my S&W and Python had better, smoother actions than the Korth.
But like JOG said, the engineering is really cool.
I registered on this forum to contribute to this discussion. I own and shoot a good number of Korth revolvers that I personally imported from Germany on an ATF Form 6. I have a similar number of Manurhin revolvers, and consider their MR73 the only wheelgun able to match the Korth in precision, ruggedness, and durability. I am able to compare these revolvers to a passel of Colt Pythons, Bankers and Police Positive Target Specials and Single Action Armies, as well as a good selection of Smith & Wesson�s best, ranging from prewar Kit Guns to Registered Magnums and a Triple Lock Target.
As a preliminary evaluation of these revolvers, here are some talking points.
Based on my experience, the quality ratio of Colt to Smith & Wesson is proportional to that of Smith & Wesson to Harrington & Richardson. The Colts are much better made and more precisely fitted, of finer and stronger materials, than Smith & Wessons. I base this statement on the personally observed differences in working internal parts with a diamond file, and wear and peening in contact surfaces with comparable round counts.
The Smith & Wesson single stage lockup is not nearly as precise as, but much more durable than, the Colt double stage lockup. The Smith & Wesson bolt is softer but less stressed than the Colt bolt. The S&W action is much easier to work on than the Colt action. All the more so for the Manurhin MR73 action, a S&W derivative relentlessly rationalized in the true Cartesian tradition. The Korth is easy enough to work, but the need never seems to arise. As with the MR73, the only part subject to wear on it is the forcing cone that erodes from firing Magnum ammunition in models made after 1985. In principle, the shrouded barrel of the Korth should be relatively inexpensive and easy to replace. In practice, I wouldn�t know how to go about it. The MR73 seems to resist this erosion a little better. The only part liable to break on it is the floating firing pin.
The Colt V-spring action as used in the Python with its �Bank Vault Lockup�, is a licensed derivative of the Schmidt Galand patents. (So much for the all-American origins!) As the trigger of these revolvers is pulled, the double hand forces the cylinder against the locking bolt. The harder the trigger is pulled the tighter the cylinder is locked. Consequently, as the cylinder recoils, it compresses the hand, eventually peening it out of spec. This is all the more applicable to Magnum chamberings never contemplated by the original European inventors. The ensuing requirement for periodic maintenance is the price you have to pay for shooting a Python. Its licensed Schmidt-Galand design uses its distinctive �double-headed hand� as a kind of sacrificial element. The hand is stressed past its yield point at the moment of firing and bears the brunt of recoil, because as the combustion gases cause the cartridge case to expand, it briefly locks to the walls of the cylinder chamber and transfers most of the recoil momentum to the cylinder, which in its turn bears upon the hand by way of its interface with the extractor star, which at that moment is tensioned by the trigger being squeezed by the shooter�s finger. In a nutshell, Colt�s factory authorized maintenance procedure allows for one-time stretching of the hand by peening. The second time around, the hand must be replaced with a new factory part. The service interval for this work depends on a variety of factors such as the chambering of the revolver and the use of high velocity ammunition that generates a higher recoil impulse. Unlike S&W N-frame revolvers, Colt�s post-WWII V-spring revolvers do not suffer from excessive wear in rapid double action shooting or fast hand-cocking, because their cylinders aren�t oversized with respect to their chamberings, and consequently do not generate an excessive angular momentum, the brunt of which must be borne by the bolt, the counterpart of the S&W cylinder stop, as it slips into the locking notch of the cylinder, bringing it to an abrupt stop at the moment of lockup. But take it easy while cycling your pre-WWII .38 Special and .357 Magnum Colt Shooting Masters and New Service revolvers.
The basic features of Colt double action revolvers are well summarized by Grant Cunningham: �Colt revolvers have actions which are very refined. Their operating surfaces are very small, and are precisely adjusted to make the guns work properly. Setting them up properly is not a job for someone who isn�t intimately familiar with their workings, and the gunsmith who works on them had better be accustomed to working at narrow tolerances, on small parts, under magnification.� On the other hand, by referring to a copy of Kuhnhausen�s shop manual, I was able to fit a new bolt to one of my Bankers Specials using NSk calipers, S&W screwdrivers, the diamond-coated file of a Leatherman Charge TTi, and a wooden shaft. So I agree that Colt actions are highly refined. I also agree that they require working at narrow tolerances, on small parts, under magnification. But much of that is within the reach of a hobbyist equipped with a $30 manual and $200 worth of hand tools.
In this regard, Grant Cunningham says: �On a properly timed Colt, the cylinder bolt (which is the piece in the bottom of the frame window) will drop into the cylinder�s locking notch just before, or just as, the hammer reaches full cock (in single action) and just as the sear releases (in double action.)� On the other hand, every Colt double action revolver that I own, including unfired and factory overhauled guns, fails to carry up when thumb-braked in the course of cocking the hammer, though it carries up when the cylinder is free to rotate in the course of cocking the hammer, no matter how slowly I cock it. So either this tuneup represents a factory error, or the factory rightly or wrongly considers this condition normal.
The Manurhin MR73 is the best fighting revolver ever made, designed as a significantly improved S&W, crucially strengthened at the yoke, ingeniously refined at tensioning the hammer and the rebound slide, and manufactured to the quality standards of 1950s Colts. I have tried the current S&W revolvers. There is no comparison. In a nutshell, an early Python is a better revolver than a Registered Magnum, in the same sense whereby a Ferrari 330 P3/4 is a better car than a Ford GT40. But the MR73 is the only revolver I would take in harm�s way, in the way I would choose the Citro�n ZX over the Ferrari and the Ford for entry in the Paris-Dakar rally.
American shooters tend to be impressed by popularity. Smith & Wesson is the most successful revolver maker in history, and the biggest handgun maker in the world. But these ratings attest to the quality of S&W handguns in the same way, and to the same extent, as the international market proves that the Big Mac is the king of burgers. To disparage Manurhin for refining the S&W Hand Ejector instead of following the example of Willi Korth in designing a revolver from scratch, is to disparage Colt for copying Schmidt-Galand designs in the wake of its homegrown failure to develop a robust and reliable double action revolver. The problem with S&W is not design, but quality. Their basic action layout is capable of uncompromising performance, as witness this Manurhin chambered in .32 S&W Long, beating match guns by S&W, SAKO, and Walther. But in order to get a current production S&W to perform like that, you would have to rebarrel it and replace its MIM lockwork with increasingly unobtainable forged parts. And even then, it will not approach the quality of Manurhin�s hammer-forged frame, barrel, and cylinder.
The SIG P210 remains my favorite autopistol. I consider the Manurhin MR73, the last and best revolver to be designed and adopted for constabulary service, as its wheelgun counterpart. Apart from the gloomy Olivier Marchand [i]polar[/i], my favorite MR73 story unfolded on the day after Christmas of 1994, when Captain Thierry P. of GIGN entered the hijacked Air France Flight 8969 plane, grounded at the Marseille airport. He served as the point shooter, armed with a 5�" .357 Magnum Manurhin MR73 and backed by his partner Eric carrying a 9mm HK05 submachine gun. Thierry killed two Islamist terrorists and wounded a third with his revolver, before taking seven bullets from an AK47 fired by the fourth hijacker. In spite of then absorbing a full complement of grenade shrapnel in his lower body, Thierry P. survived the assault, as also did 171 hostages. Not so the four terrorists, who had been planning to deploy the plane as an incendiary missile against the Eiffel Tower. Thierry could have armed himself with any firearm. He chose an MR73. I have mine at my side right now.
You cannot appreciate a tool without considering its intended purpose. Like the SIG P210, the Manurhin MR73 was designed and built for an administrative market that formally required extreme precision and durability orders of magnitude greater than that expected from and built into contemporaneous U.S. police sidearms. The aesthetic sensibility of most American shooters derives from an appreciation of fancy sporting goods and service sidearms meant by their makers to be surplused after firing several thousand rounds. Although that is no longer the case owing to the worldwide decline of revolvers in constabulary use, throughout its history Smith & Wesson and Colt never had an economic incentive to forge their gun parts out of tool steel. It was far more cost effective to sinter and machine softer materials, replacing the products under warranty in the rare instances of their being put to hard use. That was not an option for Manurhin in making deliveries to GIGN and SIG, to KTA. Hence the unexcelled durability and precision of their military and constabulary service handguns, combined with a more or less utilitarian finish in most of their variants.
The Korth is by far the best made modern revolver, comparable in quality only to the best of the pre-WWI classics, from the French M1873, the Mauser M1878, and the Swiss M1878 and 1882. It is equal in mechanical precision to a Target Triple Lock, and far superior to it and the Registered Magnum alike in ruggedness and durability. Among post-WWII revolvers, only the first generation Colt Pythons compare to it in fit and finish. It is arguably the best sporting revolver ever made, as distinct from a social work tool such as the MR73. Its lockwork is hand ground out of steel forgings and deep hardened. It is nowise stressed at ignition, resulting in unexcelled durability and enabling Willi Korth to guarantee the same accuracy even after firing 50,000 Magnum rounds. Its design incorporates some Colt traits such as clockwise cylinder rotation, within an original layout that bears some resemblance to S&W two-point lockup and transport. Its ingenious hand detachable yoke is a great boon to regular maintenance, and its spring tensioned ejector built into the optional 9mm Para cylinder is the best such system that I ever used with rimless ammo in a revolver.
Aside from an early run of 20,000 2" and 4" 5-shot revolvers chambered in .38 Special and numbered in the 20xxx range, meant for, but not purchased by, the Hamburg harbor police, no Korth revolver has been made for constabulary service. Certain features of its design make it less well suited for such use than its Manurhin and S&W counterparts. To cite just one factor, the stroke of its ejector rod is comparable to that of a snubnose 2�" MR73, and shorter than that of a full-length ejector rod fitted to MR73 revolvers with 3" or longer barrels. Consequently, rapid ejection may leave one or two expended shells hanging at the chamber mouths of the cylinder. I do not consider this trait appropriate for a service revolver. Aside from that, there remains an issue of economies. Arguably the costliest sidearm ever drafted into constabulary service outside of the petrodollar economy, the Manurhin MR73 was designed and built for an administrative market that formally required extreme precision and durability orders of magnitude greater than that expected from and built into contemporaneous U.S. police sidearms. The aesthetic sensibility of most American shooters derives from an appreciation of fancy sporting goods and service sidearms meant by their makers to be surplused after firing several thousand rounds. Although that is no longer the case owing to the worldwide decline of revolvers in constabulary use, throughout its history Smith & Wesson and Colt never had an economic incentive to forge their gun parts out of tool steel. It was far more cost effective to sinter and machine softer materials, replacing the products under warranty in the rare instances of their being put to hard use. That was not an option for Manurhin in delivering the MR73 to GIGN and SIG, the P210 to KTA. Hence the unexcelled durability and precision of their military and constabulary service handguns, combined with a more or less utilitarian finish in most of their variants. Whereas Korth takes this philosophy to the point that most casual shooters would disparage with a tinge of fascination, as wretched excess. For many European shooters, this is not the case, in so far as their licensing requirements deny them the option of accumulating numerous handguns. By dint of being limited to a few specimens, they acquire a compelling incentive to invest in more durable goods.
On the other hand, in my experience, every part on a Korth is significantly more robust than its S&W counterpart. For example, here is an independent testimonial made earlier on another forum, pitting a Korth revolver against a vintage, all-forged S&W M28:
Quote
I mentioned the strength of the metal in the Korth as well as the care of the hand fitting. I began some tests of the Korth vs. the M28. At the beginng of the tests the barrel to cylinder gap of the Korth was just over .0025 while that of the M28 was .003. With just under 200 rounds of heavy hunting loads through both guns the barrel to cylinder gap of the Korth was where it had begun for all cylinders. The M28 however had opended up and varied from .003 to .004. The S&W showed wear and some additional gas cutting on the frame above the barrel from some hot .125 grain loads. The Korth showed no significant wear.
Please note that the frame size of the Korth falls between those of the K and L frames in the S&W lineup. A 4" Korth Combat revolver weighs 1016g, whereas a 6" Sport model weighs 1175g, as against the 4" and 6" S&W 686 weighing in at 1191g and 1298g, respectively. The Korth cylinder is sized comparably to the cylinder of the late S&W M19, originally known as the Combat Magnum, and takes the same speedloaders. And yet it appears that the Korth withstands the pressures of heavy .357 Magnum loads much better than the S&W N frame. Additionally, the S&W lacks comprehensive single and double action trigger weight and stacking adjustments built into every .357 Magnum Korth revolver. To many European shooters, these factors alone warrant its premium price.
Korth revolvers are a breed apart. For all its mechanical excellence, the MR73 is fitted and finished like a Seventies handgun. Whereas the fit and finish of Korth revolvers rivals that of an S&W Registered Magnum, if not quite coming up to the standard of a Triple Lock. Speaking of the latter, it was obviously easier for S&W to achieve their superb surface preparation before they belatedly followed the example of Colt by starting to heat-treat their revolvers in 1920. Doing it nearly as well with steel hardened to a remarkable grade of 60 RC is a testimony to the diligence of Willi Korth. Like the MR73, a Korth revolver never wears in normal use, except for the inevitable forcing cone erosion caused by firing Magnum ammo. Every S&W revolver I ever saw suffer a high round count had its cylinder notches thoroughly peened. Every double action Colt revolver I ever tested, including brand new and freshly factory tuned specimens, failed to carry up in hand-cocking the hammer while braking the cylinder. Nothing of the sort is evident even in hard worn MR73 or Korth revolvers. And unlike the MR73, the Korth is refined to a fare-thee-well, with mirror finish on the major components and barely discernible joints between them. It is, however, a quintessentially sporting handgun, with the tightest possible clearances between its moving parts and a finely tunable two-stage double action trigger pull that is not meant for fast combat style shooting in the Bill Jordan fashion. If you want a range toy, the Korth is your finest choice. If you want a top notch tool for social work, get an MR73 or a P210.
I cannot answer the question of subjective value. In Germany, used Korth revolvers of the latest design cost between 1,200 and 3,500 Euros, depending on the condition, configuration, and luck of the draw. By contrast, you would have to spend between 700 and 1,800 Euros for a used Manurhin MR73, and between 400 and 1,000 Euros for a used Colt Python. To put this in perspective, my nicest blue steel Korth cost me around $2,200 to acquire and import in a large combined lot. I wouldn�t part with it for three times that price.
Wow, thank you very much for joining and adding to the discussion. I learned more about revolvers in that one post that the past year of my life. I hope you stick around and continue to bestow your knowledge on us. I really enjoyed that.
American shooters tend to be impressed by popularity. Smith & Wesson is the most successful revolver maker in history, and the biggest handgun maker in the world. But these ratings attest to the quality of S&W handguns in the same way, and to the same extent, as the international market proves that the Big Mac is the king of burgers.
The trouble with ad hominem attacks, intentional or not, is when the attacker is incorrect it devalues the balance of his opinions.
'Most Europeans are stupid, I think Benelli shotguns are great' isn't much of a sales pitch.
For most Americans "impressed by popularity" ends in junior high.
American shooters tend to be impressed by popularity. Smith & Wesson is the most successful revolver maker in history, and the biggest handgun maker in the world. But these ratings attest to the quality of S&W handguns in the same way, and to the same extent, as the international market proves that the Big Mac is the king of burgers.
The trouble with ad hominem attacks, intentional or not, is when the attacker is incorrect it devalues the balance of his opinions.
'Most Europeans are stupid, I think Benelli shotguns are great' isn't much of a sales pitch.
For most Americans "impressed by popularity" ends in junior high.
Back when I was doing time in the corporate world, I interviewed a job applicant who described himself as a statistician employed by McDonald's Corporation to update their advertising with the billions of their hamburgers sold worldwide. I have no reason to think that his pitch failed to impress potential customers of high school age and beyond.
Fortunately, the pitching I do these days, for fun or for profit, has no relation to sales of any kind.
McDonalds sells hamburgers because they're faster, cheaper, or more convenient than the alternatives and McDonalds knows that. I'm sure lots of firearms are sold on those premises as well.
At best Americans buy based on what they know, and at worst based on what they think they know. I've been guilty of both.
McDonalds sells hamburgers because they're faster, cheaper, or more convenient than the alternatives and McDonalds knows that. I'm sure lots of firearms are sold on those premises as well.
At best Americans buy based on what they know, and at worst based on what they think they know. I've been guilty of both.
As an American by choice, the last proposition I would defend, and least of all in an election year, is that we are anything but a nation of savvy consumers. One remarkable aspect of Korth revolvers is going beyond the cost/benefit analysis characteristic of market-oriented products. They are made with pride characteristic of pre-WWI DWM and Mauser, or pre-WWII Colt and S&W. Of American handguns of post-WWII production, only Philip Lichtman's LM4 Semmerling exhibits this quality. Yes, I am taking into full account Freedom Arms with their Ruger-cast frames.
As an American by choice, the last proposition I would defend, and least of all in an election year, is that we are anything but a nation of savvy consumers. One remarkable aspect of Korth revolvers is going beyond the cost/benefit analysis characteristic of market-oriented products. They are made with pride characteristic of pre-WWI DWM and Mauser, or pre-WWII Colt and S&W. Of American handguns of post-WWII production, only Philip Lichtman's LM4 Semmerling exhibits this quality. Yes, I am taking into full account Freedom Arms with their Ruger-cast frames.
I remember seeing a Korth in a German catalog that a German friend used to send me 30+ years ago. I was enamored by the looks of the Korth, but that was a long time ago. Germans have a tendency to over engineer things and the Korth is one of those. I hear also of Smith and Wesson and Colt handguns that wear out, but I have never met the individual that wore the gun out.
Everything has a point of wear and breakage, but let's be realistic, a Python or S&W model 29 will outlast 95% of the people that buy/use them. That said, the more I look at German guns, specifically those of high embellishment, The more I tend to think of them as Gaudy. After a good look at a Winchester model 21, I can see American over-engineering and I then realize how well the Brits were at designing and making the finest SXS shotguns in the world.
That said, their rifles/pistols stink, The Korth is eye candy for the window shopper, but if you spent the same money on a couple Pythons, I'm sure for the money spent, you would have a lot of python left over when the Korth was done. Besides that the erect posture of the Korth is near hideous.
Everything has a point of wear and breakage, but let's be realistic, a Python or S&W model 29 will outlast 95% of the people that buy/use them.
I'll see your 95% of casual shooters and raise you by stipulating that Korth makes revolvers for the dedicated 1%. Here are my photos of a Korth revolver action, in a 1985 "Profi" revolver, the last vintage hewing to the exact mechanical specifications of Willi Korth's original design. Ironically, the matte sandblasted finish responsible for lowering the cost of this workmanlike revolver by 30%, found no traction in the marketplace. Korth's customers prefer to pay through the nose for their luxury.
High resolution photos are posted at the link above.
I recall reading alot of stuff by a guy named Elmer Keith. He mentioned once that Doug Wesson managed to fire his original .357 Magnum about 125,000 times with Western factory 158 gr. magnum ammo and still pass factory specs for the gun...... Then there is my own Smith 29. It's had from 8000-10,000 rds of full power, DA loads through it and it needed a clylinder bolt replacement according to the factory. I didn't notice that, but they did. Was done with no extra charge, BTW. I also got a new rear sight leaf. That darn cheap paint used for the white outline had washed away during cleaning. Again, no extra charge. That gun would put six rds. into 1.5 inches, outside spread at 35 yds..... That's factory 240 gr. SP ammo. Then there was my old, 60's made K-38 that would put six Western Match loads into 3/4's of an inch at 25 yds., also outside spread. Yes sir. I sure don't know what I've been missing. E
I recall reading alot of stuff by a guy named Elmer Keith. He mentioned once that Doug Wesson managed to fire his original .357 Magnum about 125,000 times with Western factory 158 gr. magnum ammo and still pass factory specs for the gun......
Please see the previously referenced account of a comparison test of a Korth revolver vs. a S&W M28. Looks like it took only 200 rounds of heavy hunting loads, which the Korth withstood without budging, for the M28 frame to open up. I'll take experiments over anecdotage.
Please show us your hundred-year old Korth or at least compare durability to a Colt King Cobra, Dan Wesson or Ruger.
Nice Mazerati....don't scratch the paint.
I would gladly split the ammo costs in pitting the Korth revolver shown above against any challengers. I own no MK III or MK V Series Colts, Dan Wessons, or Rugers, but feel free to bring your own.
Wow.. the Korth is made, sold, bought AND supported by the same type of people - makes sense.
I never knew what Korths were being sold for until this thread. I never BOTHERED to know because they show no elegance, no flowing lines and are as butt ugly as, as, as, well... as BUTT UGLY AS A EUROPEAN REVOLVER! Heck, you could've told me it was made in South America by Taurus and I would've believed you - gladly concurred even.
Call me stupid but I like the lines of my ol' Stevens single shot more than that Kraftwerk neon-licht laser beams-outta-my-ass-shooter. It must be "an acquired taste"... praying to the altar of airs of superiority - very totalitarian, knowing what's best for the masses.
I recall reading alot of stuff by a guy named Elmer Keith. He mentioned once that Doug Wesson managed to fire his original .357 Magnum about 125,000 times with Western factory 158 gr. magnum ammo and still pass factory specs for the gun......
Please see the previously referenced account of a comparison test of a Korth revolver vs. a S&W M28. Looks like it took only 200 rounds of heavy hunting loads, which the Korth withstood without budging, for the M28 frame to open up. I'll take experiments over anecdotage.
I recall reading alot of stuff by a guy named Elmer Keith. He mentioned once that Doug Wesson managed to fire his original .357 Magnum about 125,000 times with Western factory 158 gr. magnum ammo and still pass factory specs for the gun......
Please see the previously referenced account of a comparison test of a Korth revolver vs. a S&W M28. Looks like it took only 200 rounds of heavy hunting loads, which the Korth withstood without budging, for the M28 frame to open up. I'll take experiments over anecdotage.
A Korth may be made for the 1%, I would bet it certainly is, but it still falls into the German arrogance that has been present throughout the ages. Germany made some real nice guns during 2 world wars, but Americans still defeated them with our junk and American ingenuity.
Over engineering is what this speaks of, I would take a Korth if offered a Korth or a Python for free. I would then sell the Korth to that 1% that thinks they need a gun that will never wear out, then buy a Python and bank the other money. But quite honestly any revolver you would own in Germany would never wear out at the rate you can shoot them in Germany
I recall reading alot of stuff by a guy named Elmer Keith. He mentioned once that Doug Wesson managed to fire his original .357 Magnum about 125,000 times with Western factory 158 gr. magnum ammo and still pass factory specs for the gun......
Please see the previously referenced account of a comparison test of a Korth revolver vs. a S&W M28. Looks like it took only 200 rounds of heavy hunting loads, which the Korth withstood without budging, for the M28 frame to open up. I'll take experiments over anecdotage.
A Korth may be made for the 1%, I would bet it certainly is, but it still falls into the German arrogance that has been present throughout the ages. Germany made some real nice guns during 2 world wars, but Americans still defeated them with our junk and American ingenuity.
Over engineering is what this speaks of, I would take a Korth if offered a Korth or a Python for free. I would then sell the Korth to that 1% that thinks they need a gun that will never wear out, then buy a Python and bank the other money. But quite honestly any revolver you would own in Germany would never wear out at the rate you can shoot them in Germany
I recall reading alot of stuff by a guy named Elmer Keith. He mentioned once that Doug Wesson managed to fire his original .357 Magnum about 125,000 times with Western factory 158 gr. magnum ammo and still pass factory specs for the gun......
Please see the previously referenced account of a comparison test of a Korth revolver vs. a S&W M28. Looks like it took only 200 rounds of heavy hunting loads, which the Korth withstood without budging, for the M28 frame to open up. I'll take experiments over anecdotage.
Of course, if a half-million users offer up the same anecdotes, someone's "experiments" seem pretty hollow......
Please show us your hundred-year old Korth or at least compare durability to a Colt King Cobra, Dan Wesson or Ruger.
Nice Mazerati....don't scratch the paint.
I would gladly split the ammo costs in pitting the Korth revolver shown above against any challengers. I own no MK III or MK V Series Colts, Dan Wessons, or Rugers, but feel free to bring your own.
You do realize you are comparing the durability of designs that go back over a hundred years and surface heat treatments, flat springs versus coils, the only improvements were to make the same parts larger? The real shocker is that despite a pile of advancements, these guns, even the weakest ones, have seen ten times more duty than the average Korth, its much like never seeing a 200 dollar knife at the local locker...
I'm sure the Korth is of the highest order, of the finest materials, as well as the Manurhin; but over two World Wars and others, the western frontier, not to mention the widespread sporting use here with the wheelgun, despite a lack of vision, I fear you're tantamount to a Baptist telling a Catholic he knows nothing of Jesus....
Over engineering is what this speaks of, I would take a Korth if offered a Korth or a Python for free. I would then sell the Korth to that 1% that thinks they need a gun that will never wear out, then buy a Python and bank the other money. But quite honestly any revolver you would own in Germany would never wear out at the rate you can shoot them in Germany
As a point of fact, most German shooters practice a lot more than their American counterparts. Over the past five years, I imported about 300 guns from Germany. Most of them fall into two categories: unfired collectors' items or premium target guns with high round counts. For the vast majority of German gun owners, their firearms license ( Waffenbesitzkarte) is predicated on active membership in a shooting club. This licensing practice causes them to value ruggedness and durability, as witness the bargain online rates for maintenance-intensive used Colt Pythons in the range of 300-600 Euros.
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You do realize you are comparing the durability of designs that go back over a hundred years and surface heat treatments, flat springs versus coils, the only improvements were to make the same parts larger? The real shocker is that despite a pile of advancements, these guns, even the weakest ones, have seen ten times more duty than the average Korth, its much like never seeing a 200 dollar knife at the local locker...
Please refer to my original characterization of French and Swiss administrative markets that formally required extreme precision and durability orders of magnitude greater than that expected from and built into contemporaneous U.S. police sidearms. Willi Korth took this aesthetic even further, by hand grinding action parts out of tool steel, in the course of hard fitting at a 60 RC surface hardness rating, as witness these bolts in various stages of finishing: Once again, throughout their history Smith & Wesson and Colt never had an economic incentive to forge and grind their gun parts out of tool steel. It was far more cost effective to sinter and machine softer materials, replacing the products under warranty in the rare instances of their being put to hard use. This practice qualifies their having seen "ten times more duty than the average Korth". At any rate, I am willing to test Willi Korth's guarantee that his revolvers maintain the same accuracy even after firing 50,000 full-powered .357 Magnum rounds, in a friendly wager over a comparison test against a Colt Python and/or a S&W N-frame revolver. Any takers?
I was a attending the Tulsa Gun Show several years ago and come upon the Korth table. I looked at the revolvers for a few moments and then asked the rep if I could handle one. He said, "No." Somewhat taken aback, I asked if it was just me who couldn't handle the revolvers or he was not letting anyone HANDle the HANDguns. "We don't let anyone here handle our revolvers.", was his reply or something to that effect. Warming to the absurdity of the situation, I said, "So let me get this straight. You have flown to the States from Europe. You have rented a booth at the biggest gun show in the world in an attempt, I assume, to sell handguns but you're not letting any prospective buyers hold the handguns in their hand, right?". Realizing, I think, how utterly, completely ridiculous he looked, he still answered, "Yes." I began laughing loudly at the total nonsense of this unforgetable minute of my life. The rep never cracked his serious expression. It was as if I were living a Monty Python skit. Absolutely priceless.
I could have easily bought every Korth revolver he had on his table with what I had in my pocket but vowed to myself that I would never own one under any circumstances. That company is run by some seriously silly people.
That would have been Earl Sheehan, DBA "Korth USA". Earl hasn't had anything to do with Korth Waffen for at least five years. Their current owners didn't begrudge me handling their pre-sold $32,000 Damascus steel revolver at this year's SHOT Show:
I even got a free Korth baseball cap for showing them some of my revolvers.
Thank you for the information and the insights you have contributed here regarding Korth revolvers.
Before your postings, I came across the July, 2002 'Gun Tests' article on the Korth Combat revolver via an Internet search, but was unable to provide a working link to post on this thread.
The 'Gun Tests' 4 page pdf article provides an exhaustive and unbiased assessment of the Korth Combat revolver replete with specs and perspectives. Details within this 'article' require reading to appreciate this statement from 'Gun Tests' ...
"By virtue of its price tag, the Korth Combat Revolver isn't for everyone. But it is a superb gun, for which we found NO product to compare it against."
Over engineering is what this speaks of, I would take a Korth if offered a Korth or a Python for free. I would then sell the Korth to that 1% that thinks they need a gun that will never wear out, then buy a Python and bank the other money. But quite honestly any revolver you would own in Germany would never wear out at the rate you can shoot them in Germany
As a point of fact, most German shooters practice a lot more than their American counterparts. Over the past five years, I imported about 300 guns from Germany. Most of them fall into two categories: unfired collectors' items or premium target guns with high round counts. For the vast majority of German gun owners, their firearms license ( Waffenbesitzkarte) is predicated on active membership in a shooting club. This licensing practice causes them to value ruggedness and durability, as witness the bargain online rates for maintenance-intensive used Colt Pythons in the range of 300-600 Euros.
This kind of flawed generalization weakens your credibility. Owning/shooting handguns in Germany is not an easy thing to do. Claiming that "Most" German shooters practice more than their American counterparts is ridiculous. You may want to go to Germany and try to find a handgun, much less shoot it.
I don't think anyone is arguing the Korth isn't a quality handgun, but to compare a $4,000 Korth straight-up to a $800 S&W or Colt production gun is ludicrous. The Korth uses better materials and has better fitting...really?
The Korth will never be a player in America, outside of the handful sold to the rich and curious, because for $4,000 an American can buy a full-house custom from one of the dozens of the world's best builders available to us. I'll take a Heirloom Precision, Bowen Classic Arms, Jim Garthwaite, and on, and on. Korth would be someplace around 100th place on that list, and even that would be charitable.
I came across the July, 2002 'Gun Tests' article on the Korth Combat revolver via an Internet search, but was unable to provide a working link to post on this thread.
Over engineering is what this speaks of, I would take a Korth if offered a Korth or a Python for free. I would then sell the Korth to that 1% that thinks they need a gun that will never wear out, then buy a Python and bank the other money. But quite honestly any revolver you would own in Germany would never wear out at the rate you can shoot them in Germany
As a point of fact, most German shooters practice a lot more than their American counterparts. Over the past five years, I imported about 300 guns from Germany. Most of them fall into two categories: unfired collectors' items or premium target guns with high round counts. For the vast majority of German gun owners, their firearms license (Waffenbesitzkarte) is predicated on active membership in a shooting club. This licensing practice causes them to value ruggedness and durability, as witness the bargain online rates for maintenance-intensive used Colt Pythons in the range of 300-600 Euros.
This kind of flawed generalization weakens your credibility. Owning/shooting handguns in Germany is not an easy thing to do. Claiming that "Most" German shooters practice more than their American counterparts is ridiculous. You may want to go to Germany and try to find a handgun, much less shoot it.
Thanks, but no thanks. I'm quite content with acquiring and reporting my long-distance experience. Getting back to the subject at hand, please note that one of the difficulties involved in owning handguns in Germany is the requirement for active membership in a shooting club.
The Korth will never be a player in America, outside of the handful sold to the rich and curious, because for $4,000 an American can buy a full-house custom from one of the dozens of the world's best builders available to us. I'll take a Heirloom Precision, Bowen Classic Arms, Jim Garthwaite, and on, and on. Korth would be someplace around 100th place on that list, and even that would be charitable.
I am not interested in arguing about popular tastes, let alone swaying anyone else's personal preferences. My testimony is limited to the facts of the matter. The fact that SIG P210 pistols and Korth and Manurhin MR73 revolvers use stronger materials and better surface treatments than their American counterparts is amply witnessed by objective measurements and documented service records. I have nothing but respect for Jason Burton and Hamilton Bowen, but there is no way to approach the strength, durability, and ruggedness of a SIG P210, a Korth, or a Manurhin MR73, by customizing a Colt, a S&W, or a Ruger.
Thanks Zeleny. Like I said, my far cheaper K-38 and my far cheaper M29 shot better. Funny story about the M28 Highway Patrolman. Mine went alot further than that w/o any need for a rebuild. Sample of one ? E
Please refer to my original characterization of French and Swiss administrative markets that formally required extreme precision and durability orders of magnitude greater than that expected from and built into contemporaneous U.S. police sidearms. Once again, throughout their history Smith & Wesson and Colt never had an economic incentive to forge and grind their gun parts out of tool steel. It was far more cost effective to sinter and machine softer materials, replacing the products under warranty in the rare instances of their being put to hard use. This practice qualifies their having seen "ten times more duty than the average Korth". At any rate, I am willing to test Willi Korth's guarantee that his revolvers maintain the same accuracy even after firing 50,000 full-powered .357 Magnum rounds, in a friendly wager over a comparison test against a Colt Python and/or a S&W N-frame revolver. Any takers?
The French and Swiss "requiring" more precision and durability to collect dust? That sounds about right.
That's the point you entirely miss; while an old school Smith or Colt will shake apart and wear before 50,000 rounds (because they are minimally altered, hundred year old designs, duh), you don't grasp that they had been replaced by more durable, mass produced designs here (except the Smith) and all except the Rugers didn't go over well, because the wheelgun is static, history is its calling card and there wasn't and isn't a real need for a 50,000 round full power 357.....a 38, perhaps. (A Ruger Security Six was tested and ate an estimated 1,400,000 357 rounds without issue, since some apparently felt it necessary) There are better target rounds, defense rounds, better hunting rounds, better long range rounds than a 357; but I'm sure I'm wrong about that as well.
What wars were these Korths used in, how many home defenses, police activities, how much game have you taken with them? Because apparently, snapping 50,000 times in front of a piece of paper is the only qualifications for service.
I'm certain you feel the workers at Henschel had far more pride than anyone in Detroit; but that's it in a nutshell.....
A Korth revolver is just about the farthest thing away in the minds of 99% plus of American handgunners ... but just mention one here and observe all the shi!t f!ts!
You are obviously a simple minded american peasant who can't appreciate a firearm designed only for multi-millionaires or the ultra gullible for wanting to change something that is already the nadir of revolvers!
A Korth revolver is just about the farthest thing away in the minds of 99% plus of American handgunners ... but just mention one here and observe all the shi!t f!ts!
I think jealousy will do that.
Jealousy? Hardly. The Korth is the farthest thing away from the minds of 99% plus of American handgunners for good reason. We have a countless more options. The total number of gun owners in Germany is estimated at 2,000,000, or the same as say, Alabama.
Not that I want one anyways, but the fact they wont let you handle them is a deal breaker. The guys at the Krieghoff stand let me put my hands all over their DG double rifles that were selling at $25,000. They actually offered them to me to mount and handle. Same with the Blaser stand. Oh well, their loss. I'm happy with what I got.
Please refer to my original characterization of French and Swiss administrative markets that formally required extreme precision and durability orders of magnitude greater than that expected from and built into contemporaneous U.S. police sidearms. Once again, throughout their history Smith & Wesson and Colt never had an economic incentive to forge and grind their gun parts out of tool steel. It was far more cost effective to sinter and machine softer materials, replacing the products under warranty in the rare instances of their being put to hard use. This practice qualifies their having seen "ten times more duty than the average Korth". At any rate, I am willing to test Willi Korth's guarantee that his revolvers maintain the same accuracy even after firing 50,000 full-powered .357 Magnum rounds, in a friendly wager over a comparison test against a Colt Python and/or a S&W N-frame revolver. Any takers?
The French and Swiss "requiring" more precision and durability to collect dust? That sounds about right.
The SIG P210 was designed for Luger-like precision and durability that to date has exceeded a quarter million rounds in the hands of Swiss military shooters, as repeatedly attested in print and witnessed by Kessler's match pistol auction lots. Whereas Manurhin's MR73 was made for GIGN operators, who fired 150 rounds of full-power .357 Magnum ammo through their MR73 every day. Please refer to my original post for an account of its part in thwarting the Air France Flight 8969 hijacking.
Originally Posted by HawkI
That's the point you entirely miss; while an old school Smith or Colt will shake apart and wear before 50,000 rounds (because they are minimally altered, hundred year old designs, duh), you don't grasp that they had been replaced by more durable, mass produced designs here (except the Smith) and all except the Rugers didn't go over well, because the wheelgun is static, history is its calling card and there wasn't and isn't a real need for a 50,000 round full power 357.....a 38, perhaps. (A Ruger Security Six was tested and ate an estimated 1,400,000 357 rounds without issue, since some apparently felt it necessary)
As far as I can tell, this urban legend has its origin here:
Quote
I once knew of an indoor range that had one as a rental gun and it digested, by their estimate, some 1,400,000 rounds with no parts breakages and minimal maintenance. That is the essence of a good deal!
In this regard, I have long agitated for bans on wearing wife-beaters by anyone not named Guido, and propounding the "I once knew" argument by anyone not named Groucho. Contrast this free-floating anecdotage with a published testimonial of Manurhin MR73 withstanding 200,000 rounds of full-power .357 Magnum ammo. Note also that Ruger's Security Six has been discontinued in 1988 and replaced by the much heavier GP-100, just as S&W K-frame Model 19 has been discontinued in 1999 and replaced by the much heavier L-frame range. A 4" Manurhin MR73 Gendarmerie weighs 950g, and a 4" Korth Combat revolver weighs 1016g, versus a 4" S&W 686 weighing in at 1191g, and a 4" Ruger GP-100, at 1162g. In a nutshell, the French and the Germans continue to make Combat Magnum-sized revolvers, over a decade after American manufacturers have given up on their form factor.
Originally Posted by HawkI
There are better target rounds, defense rounds, better hunting rounds, better long range rounds than a 357; but I'm sure I'm wrong about that as well.
Right or wrong, this hypothesis remains irrelevant to the matter at hand.
Originally Posted by HawkI
What wars were these Korths used in, how many home defenses, police activities, how much game have you taken with them? Because apparently, snapping 50,000 times in front of a piece of paper is the only qualifications for service.
As I said at the outset, Korth Magnum revolvers were never meant for any kind of service.
Originally Posted by HawkI
I'm certain you feel the workers at Henschel had far more pride than anyone in Detroit; but that's it in a nutshell.....
I appreciate your certainty, but my feelings are not an issue in this conversation.
The French and Swiss having trouble where there are no fights. Weird.
Urban legend; certainly with the million four, but "fifty thousand" rounds isn't out of line, even if "Guido" isn't in a lab coat. Prolly some "Guido's" here. I'm no French cop, but 400 rounds a week isn't out of the ordinary for me to shoot.
The 19 wasn't replaced by the 86, the 86 existed before.
"In a nutshell, the French and the Germans continue to make Combat Magnum-sized revolvers, over a decade after American manufacturers have given up on their form factor."
Yes, because its a concept that has been replaced here by more specialized markets and the need for a 50,000 round full power 357 never existed, except apparently by people who shoot at clubs in Germany. If the cartridge has nothing to do with it, you sure aren't lobbying for a 50,000 round .38.
"As I said at the outset, Korth Magnum revolvers were never meant for any kind of service."
I agree, its refinement of a concept devoid of meaningful refinement, which is why most American gun companies quit investing upon "improving" it. Smith never did and Colt's King Cobra, Troopers, Vipers and Anacondas went the way of the dodo.
That's also why I made this comment at the outset: "The real shocker is that despite a pile of advancements, these guns, even the weakest ones, have seen ten times more duty than the average Korth"
"I appreciate your certainty, but my feelings are not an issue in this conversation."
The French and Swiss having trouble where there are no fights. Weird.
You seem to have missed my reference to a real life fight. Weirder.
Originally Posted by HawkI
Urban legend; certainly with the million four, but "fifty thousand" rounds isn't out of line, even if "Guido" isn't in a lab coat. Prolly some "Guido's" here. I'm no French cop, but 400 rounds a week isn't out of the ordinary for me to shoot.
Me either. Hence my preference for well-made handguns.
Originally Posted by HawkI
The 19 wasn't replaced by the 86, the 86 existed before.
True that. But my point remains: American manufacturers abandoned the Combat Magnum platform, but the French and the Germans carry on.
Originally Posted by HawkI
"In a nutshell, the French and the Germans continue to make Combat Magnum-sized revolvers, over a decade after American manufacturers have given up on their form factor."
Yes, because its a concept that has been replaced here by more specialized markets and the need for a 50,000 round full power 357 never existed, except apparently by people who shoot at clubs in Germany. If the cartridge has nothing to do with it, you sure aren't lobbying for a 50,000 round .38.
As a shooter and collector, I am not lobbying for anything.
Originally Posted by HawkI
"As I said at the outset, Korth Magnum revolvers were never meant for any kind of service."
I agree, its refinement of a concept devoid of meaningful refinement, which is why most American gun companies quit investing upon "improving" it. Smith never did and Colt's King Cobra, Troopers, Vipers and Anacondas went the way of the dodo.
That's also why I made this comment at the outset: "The real shocker is that despite a pile of advancements, these guns, even the weakest ones, have seen ten times more duty than the average Korth"
Another attempt at changing the subject from discussing objective properties of the sidearms in question.
Originally Posted by HawkI
"I appreciate your certainty, but my feelings are not an issue in this conversation."
Thanks for sharing your feelings....
Please rest assured that your disdain of objectivity is not shared by the vast majority of our readers.
You seem to have missed my reference to a real life fight. Weirder.
Got it, one tangle requires a specialized pistol. Sounds reasonable...
Me either. Hence my preference for well-made handguns.
Yep. Multiple handguns.
True that. But my point remains: American manufacturers abandoned the Combat Magnum platform, but the French and the Germans carry on.
And my point is the platform is largely obsolescent here, because like you, most people have multiple handguns and multiple platforms. The 50,000 shot, full power 357 isn't some glaring void, its really a solution to a non-existent problem.
Please rest assured that your disdain of objectivity is not shared by the vast majority of our readers.
Most assuredly:: Originally Posted By: zeleny American shooters tend to be impressed by popularity. Smith & Wesson is the most successful revolver maker in history, and the biggest handgun maker in the world. But these ratings attest to the quality of S&W handguns in the same way, and to the same extent, as the international market proves that the Big Mac is the king of burgers.
One glaring omission (we know it wasn't your feelings) is the fact that Smith and Wesson was also at the forefront of creating cartridges as well. Oddly Korth has been impressed (dare we say "fooled") enough by popularity to chamber their guns in Smith and Wesson cartridges.
You seem to have missed my reference to a real life fight. Weirder.
Got it, one tangle requires a specialized pistol. Sounds reasonable...
Please feel free to share your experience of facing multiple armed fanatics with GIGN. I have nothing to add to this line of inquiry.
Originally Posted by HawkI
Originally Posted by zeleny
Me either. Hence my preference for well-made handguns.
Yep. Multiple handguns.
Right. Multiple handguns that don't wear out their bolts and hands, or stretch and flame cut their frames. Fancy that.
Originally Posted by HawkI
Originally Posted by zeleny
True that. But my point remains: American manufacturers abandoned the Combat Magnum platform, but the French and the Germans carry on.
And my point is the platform is largely obsolescent here, because like you, most people have multiple handguns and multiple platforms. The 50,000 shot, full power 357 isn't some glaring void, its really a solution to a non-existent problem.
Thank you for sharing. Five American shooters who took over my Korth surplus, and twice as many who came late to that party, appear to think otherwise.
Originally Posted by HawkI
Originally Posted by zeleny
American shooters tend to be impressed by popularity. Smith & Wesson is the most successful revolver maker in history, and the biggest handgun maker in the world. But these ratings attest to the quality of S&W handguns in the same way, and to the same extent, as the international market proves that the Big Mac is the king of burgers.
One glaring omission (we know it wasn't your feelings) is the fact that Smith and Wesson was also at the forefront of creating cartridges as well. Oddly Korth has been impressed (dare we say "fooled") enough by popularity to chamber their guns in Smith and Wesson cartridges.
Nothing like beating world-class experts at their own game, is there? -- [email protected] | [email protected] | 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 | 323.363.1860 | http://www.subrah.com http://larvatus.livejournal.com | "All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett
Nothing against those Euro wheel guns, but to me the revolver is an American innovation and all mine are made in the USA.
I have no itch for other than S&W, Colt and Ruger revolvers, preferring older ones. Some of mine are custom, all work done by American master craftsmen.
I'm with ya.. Most expensive revolver I own is a Freedom Arms M97 Premier.. IMVHO, every bit as well-made as what I'm seein' in the pix above.. Less than 1/2 the price and the quality is right up there....
Nothing against those Euro wheel guns, but to me the revolver is an American innovation and all mine are made in the USA.
I have no itch for other than S&W, Colt and Ruger revolvers, preferring older ones. Some of mine are custom, all work done by American master craftsmen.
I'm with ya.. Most expensive revolver I own is a Freedom Arms M97 Premier.. IMVHO, every bit as well-made as what I'm seein' in the pix above.. Less than 1/2 the price and the quality is right up there....
Please feel free to share your experience of facing multiple armed fanatics with GIGN. I have nothing to add to this line of inquiry.
None, but by the sounds of it the odds are great and would require specialized equipment. I think you should add a line of hand forged, chrome plated garden utensils.
Right. Multiple handguns that don't wear out their bolts and hands, or stretch and flame cut their frames. Fancy that.
Actually, I don't understand the need to beat on the hundred year old designs, unless you just want to. This is an old saw solved during the reign of half-scale silhouette. If the "need" ever did arise, a Ruger or a Colt King Cobra/Trooper, and Dan Wessons did nicely, if tied to a 357. No need for fancy.
Thank you for sharing. Five American shooters who took over my Korth surplus, and twice as many who came late to that party, appear to think otherwise.
Sixteen people found the need, or did fifteen people not want to be rude?
Nothing like beating world-class experts at their own game, is there?
I think the adage for the Korth is from P.T. Barnum. That might get you to your "one percent" individuals, but I don't think P.T. could even imagine the minute breadth of this scope.
Right. Multiple handguns that don't wear out their bolts and hands, or stretch and flame cut their frames. Fancy that.
Actually, I don't understand the need to beat on the hundred year old designs, unless you just want to. This is an old saw solved during the reign of half-scale silhouette. If the "need" ever did arise, a Ruger or a Colt King Cobra/Trooper, and Dan Wessons did nicely, if tied to a 357. No need for fancy.
Far from beating on hundred year old designs, I reserve my Registered Magnums and Pythons for occasional target shooting. As regards "modern" designs such as Rugers, MK III and MK V Colts, and Dan Wessons, setting aside the issue of extra bulk associated with cast frames of the models still in production, it remains that their sintered and molded firing system components cannot be fitted to yield a trigger pull of quality readily obtainable in assemblies milled or ground out of forgings. The weight of a Korth trigger can be easily adjusted externally, limited only by concerns for reliability of ignition. Additionally, fitting any one of five available sear rollers allows for the choice between a nearly linear double action pull and various degrees of stacking. Similarly, both hammer tension and rebound pressure are independently externally adjustable in a Manurhin MR73. By contrast, adjusting the trigger pull of their American counterparts is at best a major gusmithing endeavor.
Please show us your hundred-year old Korth or at least compare durability to a Colt King Cobra, Dan Wesson or Ruger.
Nice Mazerati....don't scratch the paint.
I would gladly split the ammo costs in pitting the Korth revolver shown above against any challengers. I own no MK III or MK V Series Colts, Dan Wessons, or Rugers, but feel free to bring your own.
I guess that ultimately is the deal. You make all these claims about the durability of your Korth, none of which we've heard other than you telling us, but we've got the old S&Ws and Colts that are still working great.
Korth and Manurhin revolvers are irrelevant. The same can't be said for Smiths and Colts.
Please show us your hundred-year old Korth or at least compare durability to a Colt King Cobra, Dan Wesson or Ruger.
Nice Mazerati....don't scratch the paint.
I would gladly split the ammo costs in pitting the Korth revolver shown above against any challengers. I own no MK III or MK V Series Colts, Dan Wessons, or Rugers, but feel free to bring your own.
I guess that ultimately is the deal. You make all these claims about the durability of your Korth, none of which we've heard other than you telling us, but we've got the old S&Ws and Colts that are still working great.
I too have many old S&Ws and Colts that are still working great. But I've seen many more old S&Ws with stretched frames and old Colts with buggered actions. There is something to be said for a gun that can be relied upon to keep working in the long run.
Quote
Korth and Manurhin revolvers are irrelevant. The same can't be said for Smiths and Colts.
I think you have it exactly backwards. As I pointed out before, S&W has given up on its own Combat Magnum platform, whereas Colt has stopped making double action revolvers altogether. That comports with my definition of irrelevance. Which one are you using?
As I pointed out before, S&W has given up on its own Combat Magnum platform, whereas Colt has stopped making double action revolvers altogether. That comports with my definition of irrelevance. Which one are you using?
Refresh my memory - is Korth actually making revolvers again? I do recall they went bankrupt in the late '90's and then again 4-5 years ago.
If either are, they are imported by immigrant collectors that feel the need to 'school' the originators of concepts they have either replaced or totally abondoned, not grasping the (generous) 1/10th of one percent "relevance" that hasn't already been filled by a used market or limited current production of far greater scale.
"it remains that their sintered and molded firing system components cannot be fitted to yield a trigger pull of quality readily obtainable in assemblies milled or ground out of forgings."
Nope, the SA pulls are easily taken care of, material is not the issue. The use of coil springs, more so and perhaps fit. (Dan Wesson entered this "milled and ground" market and garnered little, because the "full" mag DA went the dodo and the durability issues went beyond the cartridge and gun size).
"By contrast, adjusting the trigger pull of their American counterparts is at best a major gusmithing endeavor."
I haven't found that so, unless trying for a DA pull in designs that have it as an afterthought, primarily again due to "relevance".
Maybe your marketing input would next convice Korth or whomever on the 'relevance' of a DA only 454 Casull? I'm sure for enough cash they would build "one".
Refresh my memory - is Korth actually making revolvers again? I do recall they went bankrupt in the late '90's and then again 4-5 years ago.
Starting on 22 April 2009, Korth GmbH has operated under new management in Lollar, near Giessen. Another maker of revolvers built on Willi Korth's action is Janz Pr�zisionstechnik GmbH. JTL revolvers have larger frames and accept conversion kits for a full range of standard and Magnum calibers, from .22 LR to .500 S&W.
-- Michaelmassmeans.com | Zelenypost.harvard.edu | 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 | 323.363.1860 | http://www.subrah.com http://larvatus.livejournal.com | "All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett
Didn't see any DA only designs, but what I see will surely bring back the wheelgun to the silhouette game....or perhaps the many failings of current production guns on bear attacks.
Quote: Korth and Manurhin revolvers are irrelevant. The same can't be said for Smiths and Colts. I think you have it exactly backwards. As I pointed out before, S&W has given up on its own Combat Magnum platform, whereas Colt has stopped making double action revolvers altogether. That comports with my definition of irrelevance. Which one are you using?
So outline Korth's relevance. List the wars Korths and Manuhrins have been used and the major major law enforcement organizations that have used them? I think you already know your answers will show them irrelevant to Smiths and Colts. I already know they are irrelevant compared to Colts and Smiths.
If either are, they are imported by immigrant collectors that feel the need to 'school' the originators of concepts they have either replaced or totally abondoned, not grasping the (generous) 1/10th of one percent "relevance" that hasn't already been filled by a used market or limited current production of far greater scale.
Sorry, this is getting too daft. Bend logic or rape grammar, but not both in a single sentence.
If either are, they are imported by immigrant collectors that feel the need to 'school' the originators of concepts they have either replaced or totally abondoned, not grasping the (generous) 1/10th of one percent "relevance" that hasn't already been filled by a used market or limited current production of far greater scale.
Sorry, this is getting too daft. Bend logic or rape grammar, but not both in a single sentence.
The French and Swiss having trouble where there are no fights. Weird.
You seem to have missed my reference to a real life fight. Weirder.
Originally Posted by HawkI
Urban legend; certainly with the million four, but "fifty thousand" rounds isn't out of line, even if "Guido" isn't in a lab coat. Prolly some "Guido's" here. I'm no French cop, but 400 rounds a week isn't out of the ordinary for me to shoot.
Me either. Hence my preference for well-made handguns.
Originally Posted by HawkI
The 19 wasn't replaced by the 86, the 86 existed before.
True that. But my point remains: American manufacturers abandoned the Combat Magnum platform, but the French and the Germans carry on.
Originally Posted by HawkI
"In a nutshell, the French and the Germans continue to make Combat Magnum-sized revolvers, over a decade after American manufacturers have given up on their form factor."
Yes, because its a concept that has been replaced here by more specialized markets and the need for a 50,000 round full power 357 never existed, except apparently by people who shoot at clubs in Germany. If the cartridge has nothing to do with it, you sure aren't lobbying for a 50,000 round .38.
As a shooter and collector, I am not lobbying for anything.
Originally Posted by HawkI
"As I said at the outset, Korth Magnum revolvers were never meant for any kind of service."
I agree, its refinement of a concept devoid of meaningful refinement, which is why most American gun companies quit investing upon "improving" it. Smith never did and Colt's King Cobra, Troopers, Vipers and Anacondas went the way of the dodo.
That's also why I made this comment at the outset: "The real shocker is that despite a pile of advancements, these guns, even the weakest ones, have seen ten times more duty than the average Korth"
Another attempt at changing the subject from discussing objective properties of the sidearms in question.
Originally Posted by HawkI
"I appreciate your certainty, but my feelings are not an issue in this conversation."
Thanks for sharing your feelings....
Please rest assured that your disdain of objectivity is not shared by the vast majority of our readers.
I read it. That's my point. You mentioned two. Neither are large.
Nonsense. GIGN is about the size of, and comparable in mission to, the largest SWAT team in the U.S. Likewise ECO Cobra. Both use the MR73 as their first line offensive arm.
I read it. That's my point. You mentioned two. Neither are large.
Nonsense. GIGN is about the size of, and comparable in mission to, the largest SWAT team in the U.S. Likewise ECO Cobra. Both use the MR73 as their first line offensive arm.
I read it. That's my point. You mentioned two. Neither are large.
Nonsense. GIGN is about the size of, and comparable in mission to, the largest SWAT team in the U.S. Likewise ECO Cobra. Both use the MR73 as their first line offensive arm.
And both together are tiny compared to the LAPD.........
You keep making my point for me.
By parity of reasoning, you have proven military irrelevance of the .338 Lapua Magnum AI AWM, in so far as it's never seen, let alone fired, by the average infantryman. Thanks for your helpful clarification.
What is the likelihood of Korth staying in business without the rich Americans? The same ones that will put in the safe...because they will shoot the S&W's. I'm an American by the Grace of God my forefathers had the fortitude to make the decision...I couldn't be more blessed for that. In that I don't think any German firearm is better than an American one for me...for that simple fact. Germany may have great Engineers, factories, etc...but at the end of the day, they are still German. No offense, but I love being an American. I wouldn't throw away a Korth revolver, but I would love to get the implied value and get a safe full of S&W's instead. JMHO...YMMV.
I read it. That's my point. You mentioned two. Neither are large.
Nonsense. GIGN is about the size of, and comparable in mission to, the largest SWAT team in the U.S. Likewise ECO Cobra. Both use the MR73 as their first line offensive arm.
And both together are tiny compared to the LAPD.........
You keep making my point for me.
By parity of reasoning, you have proven military irrelevance of the .338 Lapua Magnum AI AWM, in so far as it's never seen, let alone fired, by the average infantryman. Thanks for your helpful clarification.
Man, you are the gift that keeps on giving! The .338 Lapua fills an entirely different role than a standard infantry arm whereas a Korth is simply an irrelevant duplication of the exact same arm carried into conflict by 10s of thousands of servicemembers and police officers.
...a Korth is simply an irrelevant duplication of the exact same arm carried into conflict by 10s of thousands of servicemembers and police officers.
And an 'arm' that Zeleny admits shouldn't be used as a service revolver. Yep, sign me up for a multi-thousand dollar .357 Mag that, given frequent cleanings, is only fit for punching paper. Whoops, nevermind - I just checked my paperweight inventory and there's no room.
Nobody is asking anybody to put down their S&W's and Colts. Take the Korth and the Manwhatever for what they are - beautiful examples of craftsmanship at the highest level, over engineered and over built beyond what any normal person could ever expect. That doesn't mean your other guns aren't good. They are. Sheesh. Arguing about which gun will last 400,000 rounds and which one has better accuracy at 76000 meters is just plain stupid.
A rolex tells time just like a timex. It's just made a lot better. In the end, they both do the same thing. Some people just like to own really nice stuff.
FWIW, I don't know why anybody would ever want to take a revolver, no matter how awesome it is, into battle.
Give me a good auto with 3X's as many bullets that weighs half as much any day of the week. You're not going to find many guns more reliable than a good glock/xd/M&P/etc.
A rolex tells time just like a timex. It's just made a lot better. In the end, they both do the same thing. Some people just like to own really nice stuff.
But in this case a Korth doesn't do the same thing. To use your comparison, if little a rain and dirt is going to jam up the Rolex I'll go with the Timex - I might need to know the time. This bitter old man isn't saying Korth is junk, quite the opposite, but the precision with which its made is its own worst enemy. I have no use for a handgun I can't carry or hunt with. "Battle" has nothing to do with it for me.
Nonsense. GIGN is about the size of, and comparable in mission to, the largest SWAT team in the U.S. Likewise ECO Cobra. Both use the MR73 as their first line offensive arm.
And both together are tiny compared to the LAPD.........
You keep making my point for me.
By parity of reasoning, you have proven military irrelevance of the .338 Lapua Magnum AI AWM, in so far as it's never seen, let alone fired, by the average infantryman. Thanks for your helpful clarification.
Man, you are the gift that keeps on giving! The .338 Lapua fills an entirely different role than a standard infantry arm whereas a Korth is simply an irrelevant duplication of the exact same arm carried into conflict by 10s of thousands of servicemembers and police officers.
Chuck me another softball, Z.
"You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it does."
Clearly, the MR73 is relevant enough to operatives of GIGN and ECO Cobra, men whose trigger time both in and out of the line of fire is likely to exceed that of the best shooters on this forum by orders of magnitude, for their agencies to pay over twice the cost of comparable American revolvers. Just as clearly it is as relevant enough to American shooters who pick up every last piece of GIGN and ECO Cobra surplus with six figure round counts for amounts that would buy them a brand new S&W Custom Shop lookalike, plus a case of Magnum ammo. If all you are saying is that it is irrelevant to you, try telling it to somebody who cares. Like your mother or your psychiatrist.
A rolex tells time just like a timex. It's just made a lot better. In the end, they both do the same thing. Some people just like to own really nice stuff.
But in this case a Korth doesn't do the same thing. To use your comparison, if little a rain and dirt is going to jam up the Rolex I'll go with the Timex - I might need to know the time. This bitter old man isn't saying Korth is junk, quite the opposite, but the precision with which its made is its own worst enemy. I have no use for a handgun I can't carry or hunt with. "Battle" has nothing to do with it for me.
We had a Canadian friend who went over with the Canadian forces and during one engagement was captured by three German soldiers in the night. They were conducting him back to their lines and during some particularly heavy shelling, all four took refuge in a shell hole. He had an old .455 Triple Lock S&W inside his tunic in a makeshift shoulder holster that the three Germans had missed when they disarmed him i the dark. Each time a flare shell went up he watched his captors, got them perfectly located, then as the sky lighted again, he jerked the old .455 Triple Lock and killed all three before they could bring a rifle to bear on him,shooting fast and double action from his cramped position in the mud.
I also hear Alvin York was pretty good with his 1911 (even vets I personally know)....and yet here you are, arguing with success, bantering about reliability, almost 100 years later.
FWIW, I don't know why anybody would ever want to take a revolver, no matter how awesome it is, into battle.
Stopping power. No point in arguing with success. Read up on GIGN.
Quote
We had a Canadian friend who went over with the Canadian forces and during one engagement was captured by three German soldiers in the night. They were conducting him back to their lines and during some particularly heavy shelling, all four took refuge in a shell hole. He had an old .455 Triple Lock S&W inside his tunic in a makeshift shoulder holster that the three Germans had missed when they disarmed him i the dark. Each time a flare shell went up he watched his captors, got them perfectly located, then as the sky lighted again, he jerked the old .455 Triple Lock and killed all three before they could bring a rifle to bear on him,shooting fast and double action from his cramped position in the mud.
I also hear Alvin York was pretty good with his 1911 (even vets I personally know)....and yet here you are, arguing with success, bantering about reliability, almost 100 years later.
Try selling Smith & Wesson or Colt to GIGN or Einsatzkommando Cobra. As Curly suggested in Movie Maniacs: "If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed!"
FWIW, I don't know why anybody would ever want to take a revolver, no matter how awesome it is, into battle.
Stopping power. No point in arguing with success. Read up on GIGN.
Quote
We had a Canadian friend who went over with the Canadian forces and during one engagement was captured by three German soldiers in the night. They were conducting him back to their lines and during some particularly heavy shelling, all four took refuge in a shell hole. He had an old .455 Triple Lock S&W inside his tunic in a makeshift shoulder holster that the three Germans had missed when they disarmed him i the dark. Each time a flare shell went up he watched his captors, got them perfectly located, then as the sky lighted again, he jerked the old .455 Triple Lock and killed all three before they could bring a rifle to bear on him,shooting fast and double action from his cramped position in the mud.
I also hear Alvin York was pretty good with his 1911 (even vets I personally know)....and yet here you are, arguing with success, bantering about reliability, almost 100 years later.
Try selling Smith & Wesson or Colt to GIGN or Einsatzkommando Cobra. As Curly suggested in Movie Maniacs: "If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed!"
Try selling Smith & Wesson or Colt to GIGN or Einsatzkommando Cobra. As Curly suggested in Movie Maniacs: "If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed!"
People who dress up and play always require more excesses than people who actually work for a living.
Not my problem, Grasshopper. I dress up and play for a living, while the drones hunker down and brownnose their bosses.
You keep making my point for me. [/quote]By parity of reasoning, you have proven military irrelevance of the .338 Lapua Magnum AI AWM, in so far as it's never seen, let alone fired, by the average infantryman. Thanks for your helpful clarification.[/quote]Man, you are the gift that keeps on giving! The .338 Lapua fills an entirely different role than a standard infantry arm whereas a Korth is simply an irrelevant duplication of the exact same arm carried into conflict by 10s of thousands of servicemembers and police officers.
Chuck me another softball, Z.[/quote]"You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it does."
Clearly, the MR73 is relevant enough to operatives of GIGN and ECO Cobra, men whose trigger time both in and out of the line of fire is likely to exceed that of the best shooters on this forum by orders of magnitude, for their agencies to pay over twice the cost of comparable American revolvers. Just as clearly it is as relevant enough to American shooters who pick up every last piece of GIGN and ECO Cobra surplus with six figure round counts for amounts that would buy them a brand new S&W Custom Shop lookalike, plus a case of Magnum ammo. If all you are saying is that it is irrelevant to you, try telling it to somebody who cares. Like your mother or your psychiatrist.
Sure it does, Z. You're just don't want to admit it. You talk about a revolver and its use by two small enforcement/AT agencies. That's a drop in the bucket compared to S&W and Colt.
Man, you are the gift that keeps on giving! The .338 Lapua fills an entirely different role than a standard infantry arm whereas a Korth is simply an irrelevant duplication of the exact same arm carried into conflict by 10s of thousands of servicemembers and police officers.
Chuck me another softball, Z.
"You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it does."
Clearly, the MR73 is relevant enough to operatives of GIGN and ECO Cobra, men whose trigger time both in and out of the line of fire is likely to exceed that of the best shooters on this forum by orders of magnitude, for their agencies to pay over twice the cost of comparable American revolvers. Just as clearly it is as relevant enough to American shooters who pick up every last piece of GIGN and ECO Cobra surplus with six figure round counts for amounts that would buy them a brand new S&W Custom Shop lookalike, plus a case of Magnum ammo. If all you are saying is that it is irrelevant to you, try telling it to somebody who cares. Like your mother or your psychiatrist.
Sure it does, Z. You're just don't want to admit it. You talk about a revolver and its use by two small enforcement/AT agencies. That's a drop in the bucket compared to S&W and Colt.
No, I talk about a revolver that is precise and durable enough to be used as a first line offensive arm by multiple �lite hostage rescue and anti-terrorist combat units, whom you willfully keep conflating with local constabulary personnel of Podunk, Michigan. You have every right to subject your choice of arms to a popularity contest furnished by the lowest bidder. No one else is obligated to follow suit.
I dunno about you guys, but Z's posts have really convinced me that Korthfs are truly superior to any revolver - particularly because they so precise and elegant and "rich" like Z
This "exchange" really does look like a classic story line from Saturday morning cartoons: evil, ugly, and rich european-accented villain with no friends or social life (or graces) because he thinks he is far too superior in intellect and good looks (likes to - and "can only" - use fancy words to stress the fact) than everyone else on the regular human planet who likes to educate, nay - pontificate, about the superiority of their wares and decisions. He also likes to point out spelling and grammatical errors and tries to stay logical in the face of infuriation from the "rest of the world".
He cannot step outside of himself enough to see that we read him like a cheap comic book and have been laughing at every jab that we post...
...and yet he is "ONE OF US" and needs to be - still hangs out here and takes it all. For that alone, I would still sit and chat, have a drink with him. I sorta respect that - still sorta see some of myself in him.
Man, you are the gift that keeps on giving! The .338 Lapua fills an entirely different role than a standard infantry arm whereas a Korth is simply an irrelevant duplication of the exact same arm carried into conflict by 10s of thousands of servicemembers and police officers.
Chuck me another softball, Z.
"You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it does."
Clearly, the MR73 is relevant enough to operatives of GIGN and ECO Cobra, men whose trigger time both in and out of the line of fire is likely to exceed that of the best shooters on this forum by orders of magnitude, for their agencies to pay over twice the cost of comparable American revolvers. Just as clearly it is as relevant enough to American shooters who pick up every last piece of GIGN and ECO Cobra surplus with six figure round counts for amounts that would buy them a brand new S&W Custom Shop lookalike, plus a case of Magnum ammo. If all you are saying is that it is irrelevant to you, try telling it to somebody who cares. Like your mother or your psychiatrist.
Sure it does, Z. You're just don't want to admit it. You talk about a revolver and its use by two small enforcement/AT agencies. That's a drop in the bucket compared to S&W and Colt.
No, I talk about a revolver that is precise and durable enough to be used as a first line offensive arm by multiple �lite hostage rescue and anti-terrorist combat units, whom you willfully keep conflating with local constabulary personnel of Podunk, Michigan. You have every right to subject your choice of arms to a popularity contest furnished by the lowest bidder. No one else is obligated to follow suit.
Ah, the elitism fully exposed. Dude, at any point you want to compare the number of bad guys racked and stacked between Korths/Manurhin and Smiths/Colts, bring it on. Oh yeah, you don't care about that. Just keep polishing your really expensive revolver and reading over its extensive list of features. Seems this discussion played out somewhere before between guys armed with Shermans and guys armed with Panthers/Tigers........
"You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it does."
Clearly, the MR73 is relevant enough to operatives of GIGN and ECO Cobra, men whose trigger time both in and out of the line of fire is likely to exceed that of the best shooters on this forum by orders of magnitude, for their agencies to pay over twice the cost of comparable American revolvers. Just as clearly it is as relevant enough to American shooters who pick up every last piece of GIGN and ECO Cobra surplus with six figure round counts for amounts that would buy them a brand new S&W Custom Shop lookalike, plus a case of Magnum ammo. If all you are saying is that it is irrelevant to you, try telling it to somebody who cares. Like your mother or your psychiatrist.
Sure it does, Z. You're just don't want to admit it. You talk about a revolver and its use by two small enforcement/AT agencies. That's a drop in the bucket compared to S&W and Colt.
No, I talk about a revolver that is precise and durable enough to be used as a first line offensive arm by multiple �lite hostage rescue and anti-terrorist combat units, whom you willfully keep conflating with local constabulary personnel of Podunk, Michigan. You have every right to subject your choice of arms to a popularity contest furnished by the lowest bidder. No one else is obligated to follow suit.
Ah, the elitism fully exposed. Dude, at any point you want to compare the number of bad guys racked and stacked between Korths/Manurhin and Smiths/Colts, bring it on. Oh yeah, you don't care about that. Just keep polishing your really expensive revolver and reading over its extensive list of features. Seems this discussion played out somewhere before between guys armed with Shermans and guys armed with Panthers/Tigers........
For whatever it's worth, the few of my Untermenschen ancestors who missed out on the Eastern Front action, ended up in unmarked mass graves. I reckon the ensuing congenital grudge should have deterred me from enjoying a revolver line that originated in discarded German tank armor. Not.
And an 'arm' that Zeleny admits shouldn't be used as a service revolver.
I said nothing of the sort.
Really?
Originally Posted by zeleny
Aside from an early run of 20,000 2" and 4" 5-shot revolvers chambered in .38 Special and numbered in the 20xxx range, meant for, but not purchased by, the Hamburg harbor police, no Korth revolver has been made for constabulary service. Certain features of its design make it less well suited for such use than its Manurhin and S&W counterparts. To cite just one factor, the stroke of its ejector rod is comparable to that of a snubnose 2�" MR73, and shorter than that of a full-length ejector rod fitted to MR73 revolvers with 3" or longer barrels. Consequently, rapid ejection may leave one or two expended shells hanging at the chamber mouths of the cylinder. I do not consider this trait appropriate for a service revolver.
And an 'arm' that Zeleny admits shouldn't be used as a service revolver.
I said nothing of the sort.
Really?
Originally Posted by zeleny
Aside from an early run of 20,000 2" and 4" 5-shot revolvers chambered in .38 Special and numbered in the 20xxx range, meant for, but not purchased by, the Hamburg harbor police, no Korth revolver has been made for constabulary service. Certain features of its design make it less well suited for such use than its Manurhin and S&W counterparts. To cite just one factor, the stroke of its ejector rod is comparable to that of a snubnose 2�" MR73, and shorter than that of a full-length ejector rod fitted to MR73 revolvers with 3" or longer barrels. Consequently, rapid ejection may leave one or two expended shells hanging at the chamber mouths of the cylinder. I do not consider this trait appropriate for a service revolver.
"I do not consider this trait appropriate" refers to my personal opinion, whereas "shouldn't be used" affects impersonal objectivity. Let it be noted that I make no pretense of that sort.
Korth's appear to be extremely well made, but are not chambered in 45 caliber or any caliber larger than 357 and that limits there usefulnes to me
As I pointed out above, JANZ-Pr�zisionstechnik GmbH makes a range of switch-caliber revolvers using a Korth action CNC-milled out of forgings, in chamberings ranging from .22 LR to .500 S&W. I have no first-hand experience with their products.
Korth's appear to be extremely well made, but are not chambered in 45 caliber or any caliber larger than 357 and that limits there usefulnes to me
As I pointed out above, JANZ-Pr�zisionstechnik GmbH makes a range of switch-caliber revolvers using a Korth action CNC-milled out of forgings, in chamberings ranging from .22 LR to .500 S&W. I have no first-hand experience with their products.
The nazis would use anything for an offensive weapon. Dumb [bleep] nazi.
Thanks for your meaningful contribution.
You advocate that use of an over priced POS. Thanks for YOUR contribution. You stupid [bleep] nazi.
You know, not many people knew it, but the F�hrer was a terrific dancer. And what a painter! He could paint an entire apartment in one afternoon! Two coats!
Korth's appear to be extremely well made, but are not chambered in 45 caliber or any caliber larger than 357 and that limits there usefulnes to me
As I pointed out above, JANZ-Pr�zisionstechnik GmbH makes a range of switch-caliber revolvers using a Korth action CNC-milled out of forgings, in chamberings ranging from .22 LR to .500 S&W. I have no first-hand experience with their products
But they are not Korth's now are they?
Neither is current Korth production. Willi sold his company in 1982.
Your recent comments show as much hate and bigotry as the nazis demonstrated during their run. The hypocrisy is pretty alarming. No need to take it to that level. This is a discussion about pistols, for heaven sake.
The only person I know who did hostage recovery/specialized target operations used a silenced Woodsman (what was he thinking)?
Apparently he was not "specialized" since the racket and blast of a .357 at night wasn't a welcome thing.
Of course he also didn't have the numbers advantage of National Socialist Police dressed up like Carl Spagler fishing a candy bar from the pool, operating in their own country...
Real [bleep] impressive....about as much as the gun.
Tamwrote on June 30th, 2012 at 11:06 pm Link To Comment | Reply To Comment
�UPDATE: Michael Zeleny suggests it is a Korth revolver.�
Mr. Zelany really really wants it to be a Korth. They�re made of special German steel, lovingly hand-polished between the thighs of virgins by gnomes in the Black Forest.
Certainly no elite German team would use something as plebeian as a *spit* American revolver. That would be like driving your Chevrolet to Wal-Mart to buy a California Riesling in a box�
Tamwrote on June 30th, 2012 at 11:06 pm Link To Comment | Reply To Comment
�UPDATE: Michael Zeleny suggests it is a Korth revolver.�
Mr. Zelany really really wants it to be a Korth. They�re made of special German steel, lovingly hand-polished between the thighs of virgins by gnomes in the Black Forest.
Certainly no elite German team would use something as plebeian as a *spit* American revolver. That would be like driving your Chevrolet to Wal-Mart to buy a California Riesling in a box�
"The revolver could be the Smith & Wesson Model 625, which some German SEK police squads have in service."
Rut-ro Rorge.....
All S&W N-frame revolvers chambered in calibers other than .44 Remington Magnum and .45 Colt, have cylinders much shorter than the frame window. Nothing of the sort can be seen in the referenced picture, which also shows a recoil shield significantly thicker than that of a S&W.
Your recent comments show as much hate and bigotry as the nazis demonstrated during their run. The hypocrisy is pretty alarming. No need to take it to that level. This is a discussion about pistols, for heaven sake.
I was a attending the Tulsa Gun Show several years ago and come upon the Korth table. I looked at the revolvers for a few moments and then asked the rep if I could handle one. He said, "No." Somewhat taken aback, I asked if it was just me who couldn't handle the revolvers or he was not letting anyone HANDle the HANDguns. "We don't let anyone here handle our revolvers.", was his reply or something to that effect. Warming to the absurdity of the situation, I said, "So let me get this straight. You have flown to the States from Europe. You have rented a booth at the biggest gun show in the world in an attempt, I assume, to sell handguns but you're not letting any prospective buyers hold the handguns in their hand, right?". Realizing, I think, how utterly, completely ridiculous he looked, he still answered, "Yes." I began laughing loudly at the total nonsense of this unforgetable minute of my life. The rep never cracked his serious expression. It was as if I were living a Monty Python skit. Absolutely priceless.
I could have easily bought every Korth revolver he had on his table with what I had in my pocket but vowed to myself that I would never own one under any circumstances. That company is run by some seriously silly people.
RS
I remember you telling this story a few years ago, and was wondering if you'd chime in with it again here.
Interesting. From what I understand, they start at $5k and go up from there. I can understand that they wouldn't want such a pricy gun scratched up or handled, but it would seem that they'd have a demo or three there for you to fondle, though. That's pretty silly.
From what I've seen, these revolvers are made like a fine watch. All parts are milled from a solid billet of steel and perfectly finished. All parts fit perfectly. And just as a rolex doesn't tell time any better than a timex, the korth probably won't turn a guy into a crack shot. But man, are they a work of art. Beautiful guns.
I really enjoy quality craftmanship and these korth revolvers just ooze it, even if it does come with a nose in the air and a snobby attitude.
I have the Python and S1W 27 and 29.That are very fine guns. The price is just what every one wants to pay for it. When Korth lived I went to his factory (very small) and he and his wife were very kind to me. I find it amusing that a lot of people who did never had a particular gun or rifle find it necessary to give their biased advice .
It's only the buyer who has to like the looks. They only made a few hundreds a year and in Belgium (where I live) there was no store who imported them.So I had to go to Germany. They had no stock.When the owner sold the company the sales were declining; With over 70 hours of highly specialized labour for one gun their prices were too low.
You can keep the Korth, I'm just not impressed with it , Give me a 4 inch Colt Python
Or a four inch pre-Python, like my circa 1950s Colt Model Three-Fifty-Seven, the top of the line Colt before there was a Python. Hard to imagine a more finely made .357 Magnum revolver.
Well I guess we Neanderthals will just have to get along with Samuel Colt's outdated stuff, or our substandard S&Ws while we envy the Europeans' H&Fs (Hans & Franzs). Only difference is that we can really own ours'...
The best never exists.For me I would say its my lovely wife who allows me to buy every arm. It would be an endless discussion. So I decided to buy S&W, Colt, MR, SIG aso.
Sounds like a Korth is a very well made gun. The lines on it don't do anything for me and the price is WAY out of my league.
I prefer many, many other guns like S&W's, Rugers, Colts, etc. And for other uses, even Kel-Tecs and Tauri. In fact, if I had the money for a Korth, I wouldn't hesitate to spend it on something else, like a slightly modified Super Blackhawk Mag-Na-Port Predator, Freedom Arms, or a dozen other wants.
This is one of those rare times in gundom, for me, that I'm much happier with a more inexpensive gun. For those that have the money and want a Korth, I'm happy for you. Wish you the best. Bothers me not in the least that you want one.
korth has gotten good press in the last few years but the python has never been tarnished. for hunting & fun i'll take a blackhawk everytime.--cranky72
The best never exists.For me I would say its my lovely wife who allows me to buy every arm. It would be an endless discussion. So I decided to buy S&W, Colt, MR, SIG aso.
Sigs, Colts and Springfield for two legged critters, Freedom Arms for 4-leggers.
Slightly OT observation - I don't think the operator making entry in Zeleny's photo cares who manufactured the revolver in question. What might concern him is there is a finger on the trigger and the muzzle is pointed directly at the back of his head. I've heard that this is not a recommended procedure?
Yep, not to mention the lack of a lock on the front end (such as the ejector rod lock up on an S&W).
The stacking drove me mad on the several Pythons I had and shot over the years, and I just couldn't make these revolvers sing the way a good Smith will.
Mine shot great. It just struck me as a weak POS. I tried and tried to love it. It just wasn't what everybody makes them out to be.
But hey, 50 rounds a year in single action? She'd have been a doll...
Travis
You probably made the common mistake of "staging" the double action pull on the Colt rather than rolling it straight through in one smooth motion. Staging the double action trigger on a Colt puts undue wear on a small part (the hand?) connected to turning the cylinder, thus eventually taking it out of timing. Using proper technique, however, the Colt double action is just as robust as that on the S&Ws.
Grant Cunningham is a well-known pistolsmith specializing in Colts. He used to post on the Colt Forum and still may as I haven't been over there in a while.
Is the Colt Python "delicate"?
Thursday, May 18, 2006 Filed in: Revolvers, Personal opinions, Gunsmithing
There is an assertion that comes up with surprising frequency, particularly in the internet age where everyone is an expert: the Colt Python (and all other Colt revolvers) are "delicate", "go out of time easily", or "not as strong/durable as a S&W."
Let's start with the construction: a Colt revolver, for any given frame size, is as strong as any gun with that frame size. Their metallurgy is absolutely the best, and their forged construction is of superior quality. They are superbly made, and their longevity is a testimony to that fact. You are never compromising when you choose a Colt!
How about the charge of "delicate" or "goes out of time easily"? In my work, I see a lot of Colts; I shoot them extensively myself. With proper maintenance, I've seen no tendency for any Colt to go out of time. Yet, the rumors persist!
Why do such opinions exist if there wasn't some basis to them? Is there some amount of truth? I think I can answer that!
Let's start with some facts: Colt revolvers have actions which are very refined. Their operating surfaces are very small, and are precisely adjusted to make the guns work properly. Setting them up properly is not a job for someone who isn't intimately familiar with their workings, and the gunsmith who works on them had better be accustomed to working at narrow tolerances, on small parts, under magnification.
Colt's design and construction is unique; it uses the hand (the "pawl" which rotates the cylinder) and the bolt (the stop at the bottom of the frame opening) to hold the cylinder perfectly still when the gun fires. The action is designed so that the hand - which is the easiest part to replace - will take the majority of the wear, and is expected to be changed when wear exceeds a specific point.
This is considered normal maintenance in a Colt revolver, which is not the case with any other brand. To get their famous "bank vault" cylinder locking and attendant accuracy, you have to accept a certain amount of maintenance; it goes with ownership of such a fine instrument.
I've often made the statement that a Colt is like a Ferrari; to get the gilt-edged performance, you have to accept that they will require more maintenance than a Ford pickup. Unlike gun owners, however, folks who own Italy's finest don't complain that they are more "delicate" than an F-150!
I truly think that the negative reputation that Colts have in some quarters is because their owners - unschooled in the uniqueness of the Colt action - apply the same standards of condition that they would to their more pedestrian S&W guns.
What standards? A Colt, when the trigger is pulled and held back, should have absolutely no cylinder rotation. None, zip, zilch - absolutely no movement at all! Not a little, not a bit, not a smidgen - zero movement. A S&W, on the other hand, normally has a bit of rotational play - which is considered absolutely normal and fine.
There's another measurement to consider: at rest, a Colt cylinder should move front-to-back no more than .003" (that's 3/1,000 of an inch.) This is - in the absolute worst case - about half of the allowable S&W movement!
Now, let's say a S&W owner, used to their looser standards of cylinder lockup, buys a Colt. He goes and shoots it a bit, and the hand (which probably has a bit of wear already, as he bought it used) is approaching the normal replacement interval. He checks his gun, and finds that the cylinder has just the slightest amount of movement when the trigger is back, and half of his S&W's longitudinal travel. Heck, he thinks, it's still a lot tighter than his Smith so it must be fine to keep shooting it.
WRONG! It's at this point that he should stop shooting, and take it to an experienced Colt gunsmith to have the action adjusted. Of course, he doesn't do this - he keeps shooting. The cylinder beats harder against the frame, compresses the ratchet (ejector), causing the hand to wear even faster, and the combination of the two leads to a worn bolt. If left unchecked, the worn bolt can do damage to the rebound lever. When it finally starts spitting lead and misfiring, he takes it in and finds to his astonishment that he's facing a $400 (or more!) repair bill, and perhaps a 6 month wait to find a new ratchet.
Of course, he'll now fire up his computer and declare to anyone who will listen that Colts are "delicate" and "go out of time easily" and are "hard to get parts for." That, folks, appears to be the true origin of these fallacies.
Colts do require more routine maintenance, and a more involved owner; that's a fact. But, as long as the maintenance is performed properly, a Colt will happily digest thousands upon thousands of rounds without complaint. The owners who take care of them will be rewarded with a gun that is a delight to shoot, wonderfully accurate, and visually unmatched. Those who don't will sell them off at a loss and complain on the internet.
I sincerely hope that you will choose to be the first type of Colt owner. If, however, you are the second, please drop me a note - I'm always in the market for Colt revolvers at fire-sale prices!
Mine shot great. It just struck me as a weak POS. I tried and tried to love it. It just wasn't what everybody makes them out to be.
But hey, 50 rounds a year in single action? She'd have been a doll...
Travis
You probably made the common mistake of "staging" the double action pull on the Colt rather than rolling it straight through in one smooth motion. Staging the double action trigger on a Colt puts undue wear on a small part (the hand?) connected to turning the cylinder, thus eventually taking it out of timing. Using proper technique, however, the Colt double action is just as robust as that on the S&Ws.
All Colt V-spring revolvers are licensed descendants of the Schmidt-Galand revolver design, which uses its distinctive �double-headed hand� as a kind of sacrificial element. As the combustion gases cause the cartridge case to expand, it briefly locks to the walls of the cylinder chamber and transfers most of its recoil momentum to the cylinder, which thereupon in its turn bears upon the hand by way of its interface with the extractor star, which at that moment is tensioned by the trigger being squeezed by the shooter�s finger. Consequently, the hand gets stressed at each moment of firing, and bears the brunt of recoil, all the more so in Magnum calibers. It makes no difference to this stress whether the double action pull gets staged or rolled straight through in one smooth motion. Colt�s factory authorized maintenance procedure allows for one-time stretching of the hand by peening. The second time around, the hand must be replaced with a new factory part. The service interval for this work depends on a variety of factors such as the chambering of the revolver and the use of high velocity ammunition that generates a higher recoil impulse. With a Python firing full-power .357 Magnum ammo, you can count on around 5,000 rounds before the hand gets deformed outr of spec.
The Pythons to which I referred I bought new, four of them to be exact, from 1977 to 1992, two four-inch guns, two six inch guns. Shot carefully from rests, they were all accurate (though none better than a couple of pet S&W Model 27s). None of them was around long enough to be worn as described above; I didn't like them when they were in perfect condition (though I really tried, multiple times...probably should have stopped after the first one).
Shooting quickly, however, I also disliked the sights (as well as the stacking as previously mentioned) - the standard sights are too shallow and I just couldn't get the clarity I could on the issue S&W sights (I'll confess that I never had a Python with Eliason sights, and wish I had as those are great).
With all due respect for Grant Cunningham, it remains that Colt Magnum revolvers are liable to fractures of forcing cones and breakage of cylinder bolts, both being considerably less robust than the corresponding parts on a S&W, let alone the virtually indestructible components of a Korth.
You probably made the common mistake of "staging" the double action pull on the Colt rather than rolling it straight through in one smooth motion. Staging the double action trigger on a Colt puts undue wear on a small part (the hand?) connected to turning the cylinder, thus eventually taking it out of timing. Using proper technique, however, the Colt double action is just as robust as that on the S&Ws.
The King Cobra, MkIII and MK V guns were a lot more durable than the older New Police design.....but then again, we are comparing 1890's designs to post WWII designs.
Anyone fired a 357 at night? Without ear protection?
The King Cobra, MkIII and MK V guns were a lot more durable than the older New Police design.....but then again, we are comparing 1890's designs to post WWII designs.
Anyone fired a 357 at night? Without ear protection?
I always like the mention " the best". No one is the best.And for the quality of steel no American brand can tip on the top european makers: SIG, KORTH, HAMMERLI. Why I dare to say so: I bought them all and they are not in a safe. You can only judge a weapon after then of thousands of rounds.
I was a attending the Tulsa Gun Show several years ago and come upon the Korth table. I looked at the revolvers for a few moments and then asked the rep if I could handle one. He said, "No." Somewhat taken aback, I asked if it was just me who couldn't handle the revolvers or he was not letting anyone HANDle the HANDguns. "We don't let anyone here handle our revolvers.", was his reply or something to that effect. Warming to the absurdity of the situation, I said, "So let me get this straight. You have flown to the States from Europe. You have rented a booth at the biggest gun show in the world in an attempt, I assume, to sell handguns but you're not letting any prospective buyers hold the handguns in their hand, right?". Realizing, I think, how utterly, completely ridiculous he looked, he still answered, "Yes." I began laughing loudly at the total nonsense of this unforgetable minute of my life. The rep never cracked his serious expression. It was as if I were living a Monty Python skit. Absolutely priceless.
I could have easily bought every Korth revolver he had on his table with what I had in my pocket but vowed to myself that I would never own one under any circumstances. That company is run by some seriously silly people.
RS
Yet you can go to the SHOT show, walk over to Purdey�s booth and pick up all the $100k-plus guns you want.
All Colt V-spring revolvers are licensed descendants of the Schmidt-Galand revolver design, which uses its distinctive �double-headed hand� as a kind of sacrificial element.
While it is true that the pawl on the Colt�s revolvers is considered a wear part, it should be noted that it take a lot of shots, even with magnum ammunition to wear one out if the part has been properly installed.
Originally Posted by zeleny
As the combustion gases cause the cartridge case to expand, it briefly locks to the walls of the cylinder chamber and transfers most of its recoil momentum to the cylinder, which thereupon in its turn bears upon the hand by way of its interface with the extractor star, which at that moment is tensioned by the trigger being squeezed by the shooter�s finger. Consequently, the hand gets stressed at each moment of firing, and bears the brunt of recoil, all the more so in Magnum calibers.
The Colt�s pawl floats so as the cylinder moves back the pawl moves with it. Since the cylinder has no rifling in it, there is no significant torque either way, therefore a properly fit pawl will go a very long time before you have any issues.
Originally Posted by zeleny
With a Python firing full-power .357 Magnum ammo, you can count on around 5,000 rounds before the hand gets deformed outr of spec.
Not my observation, but you may have different experiences than I.
All this technical talk is very interesting if you�re interested in such engineering minutia. The fact remains, the Colt�s revolver is anything but a �fragile� revolver. In fact, in US military testing before the turn of the century, the reason Colt�s won out over all other revolvers is because when exposed to the elements, the Colt�s was the one that kept running while all others (including the S&W) were hopelessly locked up.
In the end, one would hope that a $5,000.00 revolver would be better than something costing 60-80% less. For the difference in price, that can cover a good two to three lifetimes of having new hands fit. As for the rest of the gun, it will hold its own with the rest of the crowd.
Accuracy wise, I�ve yet to encounter a Korth that out-shoots a Python, but admittedly I�ve only shot two examples. And also admittedly, I was shooting one brand of ammo, and the rest were handloads. Still, the Colt�s consistently out-shot the Korth in my hands, and the hands of several other bullseye competitors. Still, the difference was so minute that no one would ever say that Python was truly more accurate or less accurate; just not enough of a difference.
The one thing I did like about the Korth was the feel, it felt more like a S&W to me, so therefore it tended to feel better in my hands than the Colts. And again, the engineering that allows all the adjustments on the fly is simply brilliant.
Personally, I'm glad to have him back. I�ve debated the Hi Power vs. the Sig 210 with him on another forum. All that engineering magnificence really matters to him, and there�s nothing wrong with that. Where I have problems is with the use of the word �best� or �better�. To me, that�s a highly subjective term and it all depends on what you�re trying to do.
Personally, I'm glad to have him back. I�ve debated the Hi Power vs. the Sig 210 with him on another forum. All that engineering magnificence really matters to him, and there�s nothing wrong with that. Where I have problems is with the use of the word �best� or �better�. To me, that�s a highly subjective term and it all depends on what you�re trying to do.
It isn't his information...er...rather opinion...it is his presentation and arrogance that leaves such distain...
He does have a bit of an elitist tone, I�ll give you that; but he is rather well informed and I find very little to disagree with. I think where most will disagree, myself included, is the final conclusion and the general �worth� or �value proposition� that is the Korth Revolver. He finds it absolutely worth it, while the majority doesn�t.
�Based on my experience, the quality ratio of Colt to Smith & Wesson is proportional to that of Smith & Wesson to Harrington & Richardson. The Colts are much better made and more precisely fitted, of finer and stronger materials, than Smith & Wessons. I base this statement on the personally observed differences in working internal parts with a diamond file, and wear and peening in contact surfaces with comparable round counts.
Interesting observation, but I find the comparison of Colt�s and S&W about the same as the difference between S&W and H&R to be quite the exaggeration. I�ve been gunsmithing both for over 25 years, and have drawn my own conclusions. Let me clarify that, I have worked on and repaired both for that time, mostly S&W, but some Colts. However, I have only recently (past 5 years) done any serious work on the Colt�s, and I like them. Yes I will agree that the Colt�s has a finer degree of fit and finish, and on some models the metallurgy is superior; but I don�t find the difference in quality to be anywhere near the chasm you describe.
Originally Posted by zeleny
The S&W action is much easier to work on than the Colt action.
You know, I hear this a lot, but I don�t find either one �easier� or harder; they�re just different. Perhaps people find the Colt�s more difficult to work on because of the general unfamiliarity with the design that prevails these days.
Originally Posted by zeleny
The only part liable to break on it is the floating firing pin.
Yes, I�ve always found it humorous the assertion that the frame mounted firing pins are less apt to break; I personally have found it quite the other way around. I�ve changed a good 6 frame mounted firing pins to every one hammer mounted pin. Far from being, as Colt�s once declared �unbreakable�.
Originally Posted by zeleny
�The Manurhin MR73 is the best fighting revolver ever made, designed as a significantly improved S&W, crucially strengthened at the yoke, ingeniously refined at tensioning the hammer and the rebound slide, and manufactured to the quality standards of 1950s Colts. I have tried the current S&W revolvers. There is no comparison. In a nutshell, an early Python is a better revolver than a Registered Magnum, in the same sense whereby a Ferrari 330 P3/4 is a better car than a Ford GT40. But the MR73 is the only revolver I would take in harm�s way, in the way I would choose the Citro�n ZX over the Ferrari and the Ford for entry in the Paris-Dakar rally.
I�m not sure what the rebound slide has to do with combat fitness or reliability, but I�ll readily admit I�ve never had the sideplate off on a Manurhin revolver. When I think of fighting revolvers, I look to the best source of information; military service. The DA revolvers with the best track record in military service would probably be the Webleys, with the 1917 Colt�s & S&W� running a very close second. The Manurhin has never been in wide spread use, so the long term effects of service abuse are just an unknown. Never be taken in by good looking workmanship, or a sound design on paper. Most arms that hit military service tended to have both; yet most arms that hit military service require extensive development. The Webley, Colt�s, and S&W have all had the extensive development that goes with wide spread military and law enforcement service. If I had to take a revolver onto a battlefield, my personal choice would be the Webley Mk VI.
Originally Posted by zeleny
American shooters tend to be impressed by popularity.
Heartily agreed�there is a huge sense of �fashion� with American shooters.
Originally Posted by zeleny
Smith & Wesson is the most successful revolver maker in history, and the biggest handgun maker in the world.
Taurus is the largest handgun manufacturer in the world; but point taken.
Originally Posted by zeleny
The problem with S&W is not design, but quality. Their basic action layout is capable of uncompromising performance, as witness this Manurhin chambered in .32 S&W Long, beating match guns by S&W, SAKO, and Walther. But in order to get a current production S&W to perform like that, you would have to rebarrel it and replace its MIM lockwork with increasingly unobtainable forged parts. And even then, it will not approach the quality of Manurhin�s hammer-forged frame, barrel, and cylinder.
It all depends on what you�re trying to accomplish. To make the finest target revolver is NOT what S&W is seeking; there�s very little market share for such a thing. Revolvers were supplanted in the target shooting market almost a couple of generations ago, so why compete in an irrelevant market? As to your comment about MIM parts, just like most everyone else, I think you�re being taken in by �internet experts� in your disparaging of MIM; it�s VERY sound technology. Properly made forged parts can be better provided the specifications are held with the same degree of precision. But to do so is exorbitantly costly, and prices such revolvers out of most markets. So the S&W product is a compromise, but a pretty good one considering S&W puts out orders of magnitude greater product that is suited for their intended market. Korth�s quality and engineering is truly magnificent, but a bit irrelevant here in the US, because very few are interested in such a product. US shooters who are seeking such levels of accuracy will always turn to an auto-pistol, and those auto�s will always win the matches against the revolvers.
As for forged parts�technically they can be �better� but are they truly needed? If your sole goal in the world is to shoot a revolver to extremes, then perhaps they are needed. But for the rest of the world, pure forged parts just aren�t necessary. Few have greater demands than military arms, yet the preponderance of the parts found in military arms are investment cast, or these days increasingly MIM. Trust me, nothing takes a beating or abuse like a machinegun.
Originally Posted by zeleny
MR73 was designed and built for an administrative market that formally required extreme precision and durability orders of magnitude greater than that expected from and built into contemporaneous U.S. police sidearms. The aesthetic sensibility of most American shooters derives from an appreciation of fancy sporting goods and service sidearms meant by their makers to be surplused after firing several thousand rounds.
Most US made revolvers were made to the best possible quality given what the market would bear. Anything beyond that just doesn�t make good business sense�notice that Manurhin and Korth have an almost un-measurable market share. And it�s not just the US who puts a lifespan on service arms, literally every nation does that. Arms that have longer lifespans will typically cost more, and those with lesser lifespans cost less. Those that cost exceptionally more or exceptionally less tend to not be too successful in the marketplace in most any industry. Since Manurhin & Korth have very small niche markets, I�d say the US makers clearly chose the right path.
Originally Posted by zeleny
throughout its history Smith & Wesson and Colt never had an economic incentive to forge their gun parts out of tool steel.
Nor has anyone else�emphasis on economic incentive. But had the �market� truly demanded such a thing, you can bet S&W would have made it.
Originally Posted by zeleny
The Korth is by far the best made modern revolver, comparable in quality only to the best of the pre-WWI classics, from the French M1873, the Mauser M1878, and the Swiss M1878 and 1882. It is equal in mechanical precision to a Target Triple Lock, and far superior to it and the Registered Magnum alike in ruggedness and durability. Among post-WWII revolvers, only the first generation Colt Pythons compare to it in fit and finish. It is arguably the best sporting revolver ever made
Again, here comes that �best� word again. Best for what? It�s certainly not best for someone who could never afford it. It would never be �best� for any sort of police or military service, again the price is prohibitive; the reality is, very few military or law enforcement units have the funding to provide a $5,000.00 sidearm to their officers. They are MUCH better served providing them something like a $500.00 sidearm, and spend the rest on training. �Best� as a target revolver�again, I strongly doubt it. The difference between the Korth and one of the better S&W and Colt�s is never enough to take the Korth into a whole new class. The accuracy difference is so small that it will still come down to the shooter every time. Yet the Korth has vastly fewer options for sights, grips, etc. But then again, target revolvers in actual bullseye competition are basically irrelevant. The only one�s using them anymore are those who just love to shoot revolvers. The serious competitors have switched to auto pistols.
Originally Posted by zeleny
Arguably the costliest sidearm ever drafted into constabulary service outside of the petrodollar economy, the Manurhin MR73 was designed and built for an administrative market that formally required extreme precision and durability orders of magnitude greater than that expected from and built into contemporaneous U.S. police sidearms.
Which was a fool�s errand. Anyone would have been able to tell you that a semi-auto of considerably less cost would be far more reliable in extreme environments, and more than accurate enough for precise shooting required in a hostage rescue situation. Notice, the GIGN were some of the only people who used revolvers�and if I recall correctly they even chose the S&W model 36 as a sidearm for a time. (possibly what lead them to the Manurhin)
Originally Posted by zeleny
Every double action Colt revolver I ever tested, including brand new and freshly factory tuned specimens, failed to carry up in hand-cocking the hammer while braking the cylinder.
So then perhaps you should stop and think about what that means? Perhaps they were never intended to, despite the musings of Mr. Cunningham. If you understand the design, you�d know that while it would be proper for a gunsmith to fit a pawl so that it passed such a test (because if you�re going to do a non-assembly line job, you ought to do the best you can), passing such a test really means just about nothing to the Colt�s revolver. With all your mechanical knowledge, you should be able to intuitively surmise that.
Originally Posted by zeleny
If you want a range toy, the Korth is your finest choice.
I think you finally got down to what it all adds up to. Still, a good man with a S&W or Colt�s still has pretty much an equal chance for a win at the local bullseye match.
Finally, I find the creation of the Korth to be really funny. They create the �finest� target revolver in a magnum caliber; kind of an oxy-moron if you ask me. Plus they create the finest target revolver in an era where the target revolver is basically irrelevant The end result is like a Rolex watch; bragging rights in an age where a watch isn�t even needed anymore since everyone carries a cell phone. Yet the Rolex wearer and the Korth shooter can go on for days as to how excellent their chosen tool really is.
I wouldn't give a nickel for a Korth let alone the thousands they ask for one. I would much rather have a Colt Python or a Smith Model 27 or 28 or even a 19 for that matter.
$250 out the door,...shoots all six cylinders to point of aim with fixed sights,....particularly fond of a hardcast 160 grain LBT WFN over 6 grains of Unique in .38 spl cases.
The King Cobra, MkIII and MK V guns were a lot more durable than the older New Police design.....but then again, we are comparing 1890's designs to post WWII designs.
Anyone fired a 357 at night? Without ear protection?
And I'd rather trust my S&W Victory Model or my 2.5" Model 66 over a Korth if my life depended on it......just as I'd trust a Timex over a Rolex if I want to know what time it really is.
And I'd rather trust my S&W Victory Model or my 2.5" Model 66 over a Korth if my life depended on it......just as I'd trust a Timex over a Rolex if I want to know what time it really is.
My dad has always worn a Rolex and that thing is like a...clock...
And I'd rather trust my S&W Victory Model or my 2.5" Model 66 over a Korth if my life depended on it......just as I'd trust a Timex over a Rolex if I want to know what time it really is.
My dad has always worn a Rolex and that thing is like a...clock...
I'm gonna snag it when his time is up.
Haha! Get it? Time? Up? Haha.
Travis
Speaking of Rolexes, does your phone work, I've been calling all day about the Rolex of rifles, namely a Sako .222...
"When I think of fighting revolvers, I look to the best source of information; military service. The DA revolvers with the best track record in military service would probably be the Webleys, with the 1917 Colt�s & S&W� running a very close second. The Manurhin has never been in wide spread use, so the long term effects of service abuse are just an unknown."
This should be good. The Z-Man and I have had a version this discussion already.
What a [bleep] joke! The blueing on these looks terrible, especially for what they are asking. Don't even get me started on the hideous aesthetics. I thought this was a 200-300 dollar revolver until I googled a little. A fool and his money are soon parted.
Reliability of this over 30 years and more then 20000 rounds used and abused FN Barracvuda (forged steel of course was excellent. Yes I even can switch barrels like on my Korth.
Dan Wesson also used forged parts. Like Korth, they are also out of business, even though they made some nice, durable guns to withstand thousands of basically excessive silhouette loads.
A few cops carried them, but the 357 went the dodo for duty a long time ago.
Dan Wesson also used forged parts. Like Korth, they are also out of business, even though they made some nice, durable guns to withstand thousands of basically excessive silhouette loads.
A few cops carried them, but the 357 went the dodo for duty a long time ago.
Beautiful.....and hard to find. I wanted a pistol pac since I was a kid.
Dan Wesson also used forged parts. Like Korth, they are also out of business, even though they made some nice, durable guns to withstand thousands of basically excessive silhouette loads.
A few cops carried them, but the 357 went the dodo for duty a long time ago.
I had that very model back in the 1980s. I had three barrel lengths, the eight inch with a scope mounted on it. Really nice triggers. Shorter pull stroke than a Smith & Wesson. Just another in a long list of guns I'm sorry I sold.
Dan Wesson also used forged parts. Like Korth, they are also out of business, even though they made some nice, durable guns to withstand thousands of basically excessive silhouette loads.
A few cops carried them, but the 357 went the dodo for duty a long time ago.
What parts on a Dan Wesson are forged? The entire revolver is made of investment castings.
Reliability of this over 30 years and more then 20000 rounds used and abused FN Barracvuda (forged steel of course was excellent. Yes I even can switch barrels like on my Korth.
If it's so awesome, why did the cylinder fall out?
Reliability of this over 30 years and more then 20000 rounds used and abused FN Barracvuda (forged steel of course was excellent. Yes I even can switch barrels like on my Korth.
If it's so awesome, why did the cylinder fall out?
Reliability of this over 30 years and more then 20000 rounds used and abused FN Barracvuda (forged steel of course was excellent. Yes I even can switch barrels like on my Korth.
If it's so awesome, why did the cylinder fall out?
Travis
I've got an old second gen Colt SAA 45 with thousands of rounds fired that doesnt have the drag marks on the cylinder like that overpriced korth.
Reliability of this over 30 years and more then 20000 rounds used and abused FN Barracvuda (forged steel of course was excellent. Yes I even can switch barrels like on my Korth.
If it's so awesome, why did the cylinder fall out?
Travis
I've got an old second gen Colt SAA 45 with thousands of rounds fired that doesnt have the drag marks on the cylinder like that overpriced korth.
Gunner
Sheesh, you guys - buy a gun book. That's a FN Barracuda. I would have figured Kevin (Astra Boy) would be all over that one.
Reliability of this over 30 years and more then 20000 rounds used and abused FN Barracvuda (forged steel of course was excellent. Yes I even can switch barrels like on my Korth.
If it's so awesome, why did the cylinder fall out?
Travis
I've got an old second gen Colt SAA 45 with thousands of rounds fired that doesnt have the drag marks on the cylinder like that overpriced korth.
Gunner
The drag marks really don�t mean anything, it�s just a nicety. Almost all S&W�s will produce the drag mark, yet exhibit perfect timing. Most Colt�s will also, again with perfect timing.
A properly timed Colt with the old style double action (like the Pythons have) will not produce a drag line. The drag lines come from not lining the lead-in to the bolt notch up with the bolt when closing the cylinder. Ditto for the Colt SAA. As long as the hammer is always pulled all the way back to full cock before lowering it it will not produce a drag line.
Dan Wesson also used forged parts. Like Korth, they are also out of business, even though they made some nice, durable guns to withstand thousands of basically excessive silhouette loads.
A few cops carried them, but the 357 went the dodo for duty a long time ago.
A properly timed Colt with the old style double action (like the Pythons have) will not produce a drag line. The drag lines come from not lining the lead-in to the bolt notch up with the bolt when closing the cylinder. Ditto for the Colt SAA. As long as the hammer is always pulled all the way back to full cock before lowering it it will not produce a drag line.
Drag line is also produced by the timing of the cylinder bolt release.
If it is mistimed. A properly timed Colt will lower the bolt enough to avoid any contact with the cylinder before the cylinder begins to rotate and then drop the bolt into the notch lead-in for the next chamber. The bolt should make no contact with the cylinder in the space between the bolt notch and the lead-in to the next notch.
�Based on my experience, the quality ratio of Colt to Smith & Wesson is proportional to that of Smith & Wesson to Harrington & Richardson. The Colts are much better made and more precisely fitted, of finer and stronger materials, than Smith & Wessons. I base this statement on the personally observed differences in working internal parts with a diamond file, and wear and peening in contact surfaces with comparable round counts.
Interesting observation, but I find the comparison of Colt�s and S&W about the same as the difference between S&W and H&R to be quite the exaggeration. I�ve been gunsmithing both for over 25 years, and have drawn my own conclusions. Let me clarify that, I have worked on and repaired both for that time, mostly S&W, but some Colts. However, I have only recently (past 5 years) done any serious work on the Colt�s, and I like them. Yes I will agree that the Colt�s has a finer degree of fit and finish, and on some models the metallurgy is superior; but I don�t find the difference in quality to be anywhere near the chasm you describe.
To clarify right back at you, I like Harrington & Richardson. But I don't like them nearly as much as S&W, which I don't like nearly as much as Colt.
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Originally Posted by zeleny
The S&W action is much easier to work on than the Colt action.
You know, I hear this a lot, but I don�t find either one �easier� or harder; they�re just different. Perhaps people find the Colt�s more difficult to work on because of the general unfamiliarity with the design that prevails these days.
Another subjective call. Colt action parts are smaller, and set up to travel on more complicated paths.
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Originally Posted by zeleny
The only part liable to break on it is the floating firing pin.
Yes, I�ve always found it humorous the assertion that the frame mounted firing pins are less apt to break; I personally have found it quite the other way around. I�ve changed a good 6 frame mounted firing pins to every one hammer mounted pin. Far from being, as Colt�s once declared �unbreakable�.
With that design, it's either the firing pin or the recoil shield. Compare the interaction of the flint with the frizzen.
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Originally Posted by zeleny
�The Manurhin MR73 is the best fighting revolver ever made, designed as a significantly improved S&W, crucially strengthened at the yoke, ingeniously refined at tensioning the hammer and the rebound slide, and manufactured to the quality standards of 1950s Colts. I have tried the current S&W revolvers. There is no comparison. In a nutshell, an early Python is a better revolver than a Registered Magnum, in the same sense whereby a Ferrari 330 P3/4 is a better car than a Ford GT40. But the MR73 is the only revolver I would take in harm�s way, in the way I would choose the Citro�n ZX over the Ferrari and the Ford for entry in the Paris-Dakar rally.
I�m not sure what the rebound slide has to do with combat fitness or reliability, but I�ll readily admit I�ve never had the sideplate off on a Manurhin revolver. When I think of fighting revolvers, I look to the best source of information; military service. The DA revolvers with the best track record in military service would probably be the Webleys, with the 1917 Colt�s & S&W� running a very close second. The Manurhin has never been in wide spread use, so the long term effects of service abuse are just an unknown. Never be taken in by good looking workmanship, or a sound design on paper. Most arms that hit military service tended to have both; yet most arms that hit military service require extensive development. The Webley, Colt�s, and S&W have all had the extensive development that goes with wide spread military and law enforcement service. If I had to take a revolver onto a battlefield, my personal choice would be the Webley Mk VI.
I like the Webleys, but they are quite unsuitable for Magnum chamberings. Manurhin made well over 40,000 MR73 revolvers, with the vast majority bought up by French, Austrian, and German law enforcement agencies. In particular, the MR73 is still an issue sidearm with GIGN, to the tune of 150 Norma Magnum rounds fired in daily training. There are many armorers' reports attesting to these revolvers racking up quarter million round counts without needing any major work.
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Originally Posted by zeleny
The problem with S&W is not design, but quality. Their basic action layout is capable of uncompromising performance, as witness this Manurhin chambered in .32 S&W Long, beating match guns by S&W, SAKO, and Walther. But in order to get a current production S&W to perform like that, you would have to rebarrel it and replace its MIM lockwork with increasingly unobtainable forged parts. And even then, it will not approach the quality of Manurhin�s hammer-forged frame, barrel, and cylinder.
It all depends on what you�re trying to accomplish. To make the finest target revolver is NOT what S&W is seeking; there�s very little market share for such a thing. Revolvers were supplanted in the target shooting market almost a couple of generations ago, so why compete in an irrelevant market? As to your comment about MIM parts, just like most everyone else, I think you�re being taken in by �internet experts� in your disparaging of MIM; it�s VERY sound technology. Properly made forged parts can be better provided the specifications are held with the same degree of precision. But to do so is exorbitantly costly, and prices such revolvers out of most markets. So the S&W product is a compromise, but a pretty good one considering S&W puts out orders of magnitude greater product that is suited for their intended market. Korth�s quality and engineering is truly magnificent, but a bit irrelevant here in the US, because very few are interested in such a product. US shooters who are seeking such levels of accuracy will always turn to an auto-pistol, and those auto�s will always win the matches against the revolvers.
As for forged parts�technically they can be �better� but are they truly needed? If your sole goal in the world is to shoot a revolver to extremes, then perhaps they are needed. But for the rest of the world, pure forged parts just aren�t necessary. Few have greater demands than military arms, yet the preponderance of the parts found in military arms are investment cast, or these days increasingly MIM. Trust me, nothing takes a beating or abuse like a machinegun.
Nothing has as many consumable parts as a machine gun, either. Accuracy in a solid-frame revolver is easy to achieve. With Korth and Manurhin, i's all about durability. So this argument ceases to matter once you get to the point of "but are they truly needed?"
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Originally Posted by zeleny
MR73 was designed and built for an administrative market that formally required extreme precision and durability orders of magnitude greater than that expected from and built into contemporaneous U.S. police sidearms. The aesthetic sensibility of most American shooters derives from an appreciation of fancy sporting goods and service sidearms meant by their makers to be surplused after firing several thousand rounds.
Most US made revolvers were made to the best possible quality given what the market would bear. Anything beyond that just doesn�t make good business sense�notice that Manurhin and Korth have an almost un-measurable market share. And it�s not just the US who puts a lifespan on service arms, literally every nation does that. Arms that have longer lifespans will typically cost more, and those with lesser lifespans cost less. Those that cost exceptionally more or exceptionally less tend to not be too successful in the marketplace in most any industry. Since Manurhin & Korth have very small niche markets, I�d say the US makers clearly chose the right path.
It all depends on your notion of right. If you are satisfied with the standard of quality set by the invisible hand, Korth revolvers are not meant for you. Neither are benchmade knives, bespoke suits, custom shoe lasts, four star restaurants, or vintage wines.
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Originally Posted by zeleny
throughout its history Smith & Wesson and Colt never had an economic incentive to forge their gun parts out of tool steel.
Nor has anyone else�emphasis on economic incentive. But had the �market� truly demanded such a thing, you can bet S&W would have made it.
Did you miss the part where I described the administrative requirements for the MR73? The standard that your main buyer sets is the most effective economic incentive ever.
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Originally Posted by zeleny
The Korth is by far the best made modern revolver, comparable in quality only to the best of the pre-WWI classics, from the French M1873, the Mauser M1878, and the Swiss M1878 and 1882. It is equal in mechanical precision to a Target Triple Lock, and far superior to it and the Registered Magnum alike in ruggedness and durability. Among post-WWII revolvers, only the first generation Colt Pythons compare to it in fit and finish. It is arguably the best sporting revolver ever made
Again, here comes that �best� word again. Best for what? It�s certainly not best for someone who could never afford it. It would never be �best� for any sort of police or military service, again the price is prohibitive; the reality is, very few military or law enforcement units have the funding to provide a $5,000.00 sidearm to their officers. They are MUCH better served providing them something like a $500.00 sidearm, and spend the rest on training. �Best� as a target revolver�again, I strongly doubt it. The difference between the Korth and one of the better S&W and Colt�s is never enough to take the Korth into a whole new class. The accuracy difference is so small that it will still come down to the shooter every time. Yet the Korth has vastly fewer options for sights, grips, etc. But then again, target revolvers in actual bullseye competition are basically irrelevant. The only one�s using them anymore are those who just love to shoot revolvers. The serious competitors have switched to auto pistols.
I smell sophistry. There is a warrant for superlatives not reducing to "Best for what?" The contents of a man's wallet might be terribly important to him, but they have no bearing on the quality of goods that he cannot afford.
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Originally Posted by zeleny
Arguably the costliest sidearm ever drafted into constabulary service outside of the petrodollar economy, the Manurhin MR73 was designed and built for an administrative market that formally required extreme precision and durability orders of magnitude greater than that expected from and built into contemporaneous U.S. police sidearms.
Which was a fool�s errand. Anyone would have been able to tell you that a semi-auto of considerably less cost would be far more reliable in extreme environments, and more than accurate enough for precise shooting required in a hostage rescue situation. Notice, the GIGN were some of the only people who used revolvers�and if I recall correctly they even chose the S&W model 36 as a sidearm for a time. (possibly what lead them to the Manurhin)
GIGN operatives use Magnum revolvers for missions that demand precision hits with deep penetration and optimal short-range stopping power. No service grade autopistol can compete on these terms.
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Originally Posted by zeleny
Every double action Colt revolver I ever tested, including brand new and freshly factory tuned specimens, failed to carry up in hand-cocking the hammer while braking the cylinder.
So then perhaps you should stop and think about what that means? Perhaps they were never intended to, despite the musings of Mr. Cunningham. If you understand the design, you�d know that while it would be proper for a gunsmith to fit a pawl so that it passed such a test (because if you�re going to do a non-assembly line job, you ought to do the best you can), passing such a test really means just about nothing to the Colt�s revolver. With all your mechanical knowledge, you should be able to intuitively surmise that.
This is just another version of "Best for what?" I will stipulate that market demand can be satisfied with mass-produced goods. I disagree with the inference that mass market standards are all that matters.
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Originally Posted by zeleny
If you want a range toy, the Korth is your finest choice.
I think you finally got down to what it all adds up to. Still, a good man with a S&W or Colt�s still has pretty much an equal chance for a win at the local bullseye match.
Maybe he even has a better chance, given that Python barrels are unexcelled. But his gun will go out of time while mine will plug along. If you doubt that, you aren't shooting enough.
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Finally, I find the creation of the Korth to be really funny. They create the �finest� target revolver in a magnum caliber; kind of an oxy-moron if you ask me. Plus they create the finest target revolver in an era where the target revolver is basically irrelevant The end result is like a Rolex watch; bragging rights in an age where a watch isn�t even needed anymore since everyone carries a cell phone. Yet the Rolex wearer and the Korth shooter can go on for days as to how excellent their chosen tool really is.
Willi Korth designed his revolvers at the time when the constabulary market demanded nothing so much as Magnum sixguns. Your analogy with a Rolex is telling, though I would fain compare them to Patek Philippe, reserving the former for comparisons with the SIG P210 or the Manurhin MR73. If you don't get why men wear fine watches, none of these guns are meant for you.
Dan Wesson also used forged parts. Like Korth, they are also out of business, even though they made some nice, durable guns to withstand thousands of basically excessive silhouette loads.
A few cops carried them, but the 357 went the dodo for duty a long time ago.
What parts on a Dan Wesson are forged? The entire revolver is made of investment castings.
The last of the 715's (CZ small frame, 357) used forged "internal" parts. Must be bolt, hand. Possibly the trigger/hammer group.
A watch is a watch is a watch. My phone will keep more accurate time then a wrist watch. What level of minutiae is enough for craftsmanship on a handgun? A 'cheap' and 'modern' S&W model 10-10 will shoot more accurately than almost any shooter, and keep shooting past any point that most would care to finance. If paying an absurd premium for a 'modern' gun is your prerogative, then by all means GFY. I will take a registered magnum any day. Heck I'd even buy two at your price.
And yet, you were compelled to boast. Glory be to free speech.
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A watch is a watch is a watch. My phone will keep more accurate time then a wrist watch. What level of minutiae is enough for craftsmanship on a handgun? A 'cheap' and 'modern' S&W model 10-10 will shoot more accurately than almost any shooter, and keep shooting past any point that most would care to finance. If paying an absurd premium for a 'modern' gun is your prerogative, then by all means GFY. I will take a registered magnum any day. Heck I'd even buy two at your price.
I have three Registered Magnums. A Korth in a comparable condition costs less than half as much, for ten times the gun. Horses for courses.
I totally agree with Zeleny. An"expensive" product will get you from the first moment top quality for a very long time. Our family lived in Belgium Congo and they used their rifles on a daily base. The ones made by Francotte, Dumoulin, FN and Holland and Holland are "still "going strong". The Holland from 1866 is still in working order. I won't mention the other brands that were good value for money but they are now used. You always pay what you get for.
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