Home Forums Reloading Varmint Rifles So, 3500 fps with a 53 gr V Max

I�ve been loading my own ammo for close on fifty years, and have studied reams and reams of loading data over that time. Sure, most manufacturers' data leans towards the conservative side - but with good reason.

As this thread is about 223 loads, let�s look at some figures for that cartridge.

The SSAMI ratings are:
Max. Average Pressure � 55,000 PSI and/or 52,000 CUP
Max. Probable Lot Mean � 56,400 PSI and/or 53,300 CUP
Max. Probable Sample Mean � 58,500 PSI and/or 55,300 CUP

Does any organisation rate this cartridge for a safe MAP of 62,000 PSI?
Just asking �

Now look at the 223 loading data on Hodgdon�s web site. I�ve chosen this one simply because it is readily accessible on-line, lists a number of loads for both Hodgdon and IMR powders, and includes pressure data.

A study of this data, and data from other manufacturers, suggests that in a 223, loading 50 to 55 grain bullets, most of the powders with which a maximum load pretty much fills the case will deliver fairly close to the same velocities, at around SAAMI Maximum Average Pressures or a touch less. There are some ups and downs in the velocities, and a few that look slightly out of line, but the loads that fall into this category don�t seems to follow the same in pattern in different manufacturers' data.

Read reloading forums on the internet, and in one place you will find somebody claiming that with the 223, VV133 powder gives FAR more velocity than any other. (without anything like an excessive pressure increase, of course!) Somebody else will claim that H335 is the �miracle powder� which does this. Others will make similar claims for Benchmark, H322, 8208, Varget, RL �something�, and heaven only know what else. You have to wonder what is going on, because they can�t ALL be right!

I recently took delivery of a custom 223, with a 25 inch long, 1 in 12 twist barrel, and a fairly short throat. I started off loading very much on the low side, with new Winchester cases, 50gr V-Max bullets, and Benchmark powder. When I got up to 25.5grs (1.0grs below Hodgdon�s listed max) I was getting 3400fps, with good accuracy and very flat primers. After some of the cases had been fired three times with that load, with neck sizing only for the second and third loading, they became a little bit hard to re-chamber, which indicates to me that the pressure is as about as high as I want to go.

Of course I don�t know what the pressure is in real numbers. The velocity is, for all practical purposes, the same as Hodgdon�s figure of 3396 fps for a load of 26.5grs of Benchmark. My barrel is an inch longer, which might account for a small velocity increase, but the shorter than standard throat reduces effective case capacity, so it�s likely that these two factors have ROUGHLY cancelled each other out. If this is so, then my pressure is probably not TOO far from Hodgdon�s figure of 50,400 CUP, for a velocity of 3396fps.

Now somebody please tell me how on earth I could possibly get another 200fps, let alone 300fps, without sending pressures WAY over the top.

Also, tell me why I should even try. I intend to use that rifle for small game shooting, out in the back blocks, and the last thing I need to encounter when I�m out there is problems like stuck cases, bolt stuck closed, or whatever. Furthermore, even if I could somehow manage to squeeze just another 200fps out of it, how many little critters would I then hit that I would otherwise miss?

Bet you didnt like PO Ackley worth a [bleep] did ya rover?

Gunner

It's always funny to read crap like this.

Yes, and I hated hall monitors in grade school too.

Gunner

Rover, read this... then think about the fact that not everyone can be right all the time...

i'm not trying to piss in your coffee, but these numbers speak true to what i said earlier.

Cartridge Standard Pressures

Redrover,
For 62,000+psi loads look at Ramshot load data..
They only give the 62,000+psi loads for 62gr and heavier bullets..

http://www.ramshot.com/load-data/

Meaning what?



OK, CIP state a maximum pressure (presumably M A P) 7,000 PSI, and/or 2,000 CUP higher than SAAMI specifies. This is no doubt of great comfort to those who want to load their ammo as hot as they think is survivable.

Has anybody got any data showing what velocity is achieved in a 223 by loading a 50gr bullet to M A P of 62,000 PSI? It would be interesting to see.

The vituperation some posters choose to heap on me for questioning their claims no doubt gives them the �feel-goods� but the two questions at the end of my previous post still remain unanswered. Anyone going to try answering them?

ok, here are my answers to your last two questions...

why should you even try? simple, to see what you can learn. where is safe in your rifle. all chambers are cut slightly different, and that can cause variations in velocity in identical rifles with identical barrels.

how many little critters would I then hit that I would otherwise miss? only you can answer that... i say it can depend on the guy behind the trigger much more so than the rifle, velocities, and BC of any given bullet just as much as it does on those same things being important to hits at varying ranges.

The vituperation some posters choose to heap on me for questioning their claims no doubt gives them the �feel-goods� but the two questions at the end of my previous post still remain unanswered. Anyone going to try answering them?

you didnt seem to like the responses to your questions to the claims either. you asked me to show you where i got 62,000 PSI being the max, i showed you. so did another poster as a matter of fact, and then you talk of people heaping vituperation on you for answering your questions simply and politely.

and one last thing before i hop in the rack for the night, next time you jump into a thread about high velocities and dont like what you see, then make a smart azzed comment based on an honest question (see #3 and #4 of your OP in this thread) then get mouthed back to, dont take it personally, but you asked for it. you are lucky Travis isnt in on this one... you could count on multiple GFY's...

Also, tell me why I should even try. I intend to use that rifle for small game shooting, out in the back blocks, and the last thing I need to encounter when I�m out there is problems like stuck cases, bolt stuck closed, or whatever. Furthermore, even if I could somehow manage to squeeze just another 200fps out of it, how many little critters would I then hit that I would otherwise miss?
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Redrover,
I don't have any problems with "stuck cases, bolt stuck, or what ever" using those max loads of TAC and Hornady 75gr. bullets listed on Ramshots website..
If you are satisfied with the loads that you have now that's fine with me..

If you want to really scare yourself read Clarkm's posts in this thread:
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/6535359/Re_223_testing#Post6535359

I didn't catch the spot where anyone told Redrover to try any of this in his rifles...

like anything, if it is useful to one's needs, that is why we all share on the campfire here....

I don't recall anyone making anyone else use loads different than their normal tried and trued ones for them...or what works for them...

to think other wise is sort of outlandish....

ironeagle:

You have skipped answering my first and most significant question, so I�ll try again. If I�m getting the first of high pressure indications at a muzzle velocity of 3,400fps, using 50gr bullets and a quite suitable powder for the 223, how could I possibly get to somewhere in the realms of 3,600 to 3,700 without pressures going WAY to high for safety?

With another 223 I own, a plain factory job with an �ordinary� sized chamber and throat, I couldn�t quite reach 3,400fps, even with loads 1.0gr over listed maximums, and definite excess pressure signs starting to appear. I doubt that velocities of 3,600-plus are remotely possible with either rifle, and if two out of two of mine are like that, I�ll bet that there are many others in the world that are the same.

Quote (ironeagle)
why should you even try? simple, to see what you can learn. where is safe in your rifle.

I�ve already found where I think is borderline safe - all that further experimenting is likely to show me is that getting significantly more velocity requires significantly more pressure, which I do NOT want.

Quote (ironeagle)
how many little critters would I then hit that I would otherwise miss? only you can answer that

OK, I�ll answer it � I would say very few. Years ago, I used to think that getting the highest possible velocity was all-important for a varmint rifle, but now I have a slightly different view. I have a laser rangefinder, as I suspect most serious varmint shooters do these days, so a super-flat trajectory is not so important now, provided drop figures have been accurately determined.

Wind deflection remains the big uncertainty. I just ran some figures, using the Berger Bullets software, for 50gr V-Max bullets (BC 0.242) at 3,400 and then 3,600fps. The comparative deflections, for a 10mph crosswind are: 200yds: 4.6� v 4.3�, 300yds: 11.1 v 10.3, 400yds: 21.3 v 19.7, 500yds: 36.0 v 33.2.

Some people may argue that these differences are significant. To me, they are not � in the country I usually shoot in, which is seriously lacking in useful wind indicators, they would simply get lost amongst much bigger uncertainties.


Quote (ironeagle)
you are lucky Travis isnt in on this one... you could count on multiple GFY's...

Gee, I'm shaking in my shoes.
(who is Travis .... ?)

A couple of other questions for you, ironeagle. First, what pressure do you reckon you were running with that load you quoted as pushing a 53gr bullets at 3,700fps and that blew a primer? Second, do you REALLY believe that dropping that powder charge about 1% will make it into a safe load?

Quote (Nrut)
I don't have any problems with "stuck cases, bolt stuck, or what ever" using those max loads of TAC and Hornady 75gr. bullets listed on Ramshots website..
No great surprise. With most of my rifles, I usually don�t have excessive pressure problems with loads listed as maximums in manufacturers� data, either. This new 223 is a rare exception. Loads OVER the listed maximums have sometimes been a different story.

If you are satisfied with the loads that you have now that's fine with me..
It�s fine with me, too.

If you want to really scare yourself read Clarkm's posts in this thread:
I did follow this one for a while, and then quit. I suppose I was scared by it in a way � scared that all the bovine excrement there would come up over the top of my chest waders!

Quote (Seafire)
I didn't catch the spot where anyone told Redrover to try any of this in his rifles...
Nobody did tell that to me in particular, but go back and read some of the posts, like the one that says:

For many years my 50gr .223 load has been at 3640. So your load is very do-able and isn't too hot
Followed by various other posts claiming some very high velocities.

Anyone can see a clear implication here that these sorts of loads and velocities are quite OK, and that everybody should be able to achieve them.

Look, I don�t really care if you and like-minded people regularly load all your ammo to pressures just below the level where things start coming apart. What DOES concern me is that some inexperienced reloaders will read this sort of stuff and think that super-fast loads are what they must aspire to, and get themselves into a heap of trouble.

Rover, i suppose that without the proper tools, there is no way to identify where the pressures actually are with the loads i used as a test. i only loaded 4 of them to see what i was getting. i know they were too hot as i said in the OP.

any new reloader worth their salt pays attention to detail, and any competent reader will have picked up on the fact that i did say they were too hot.

is it possible that you perhaps missed that? i never said they were safe, just gave the velocities and said they were hot, and put a smiley indicating a joke about the "sweet spot" being 1% lower.

sheesh.

and Travis is Deflave here... he says GFY a LOT!!!

Very turdlike. I like that...

Well, you said the top load was 'SMOKIN!',which could be interpreted in various ways and not necessarily as a warning not to use it. I overlooked the second 'smiley'.

That 3640 load is where best accuracy happened to be and it was several years before I put it over a chronograph. I've shot it since the mid 90's and in over 100* temps. It is what it is and it's not overpressure....and the powder charge wasn't mentioned. If you don't like that, if you don't agree with it, tough. Trouble is A-holes like you think you're judgementally gifted where others aren't. Don't be ass-uming that nobody else knows what's what. Don't be arguing with people about what works for them. What matters is that what works for them, works, and FY if you don't like it.

Is it true somebody doesn't know who I am?

You can all GFY.


Travis

Admit it. You're just an internet persona. 53 year old fat single dude, unemployed and still living in his Mom's basement with a pair of Aviators...

Was feeling kinda bad Travis, I hadn't had a good GFY in about a week or so, Thanks Main.

Gunner

Doooood...when you can't find Travis...I'm here for you Bro'...

Thanks Poohbah, always best to get it from the original 'eh?

Gunner