Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles 300 Whisper...

The attraction of the whisper/blackout is the ability to use the same bolt and mags as a 5.56. As far as terminal ballistics with subsonic ammo, a 9mm carbine is a much better option with today's 147gr expanding bullets. If you look at supersonic performance, the 125gr loads are comparable to the 7.62x39 which is a fine mid-range deer round.

As the happy new owner of an AR with a .300 Whisper/Blackout upper I�m curious why you think a 9mm/147g in a carbine is better?

Let�s look at some facts, first with the 9mm carbine.

Per http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html, the carbine�s velocity can be estimated:

1090fps = Federal Hydra-Shok fastest recorded velocity (14-15� barrel, longer barrels were slower)
.193 = Calculated Ballistic Coefficient (based on matching Federal�s velocity tables)

Thus we can calculate Velocity, Energy and drop (for a 100 yard zero):
0 yds = 1090fps/388fpe/-1.5�
100 yds = 975fps/310fpe/-0�
200yds = 895fps/262fpe/-35.0�
300 yds = 832fps/226fpe/-113.0�

Now we can look at the .300 Whisper/Blackout using Hornady data for a 16� barrel and substituting a 130g Barnes TAC-X bullet for the 130g Sierra HP (because I don�t have the BC for the Sierra):

2213fps = MV
.366 = Barnes advertised Ballistic Coefficient

So here is the calculated Velocity. Energy and drop (for a 100 yard zero):
0 yds = 2213fps/1414fpe/-1.5�
100 yds = 1952fps/1100fps/-0�
200yds = 1712fps/846fpe/-7.7�
300 yds = 1496fps/646fpe/-27.4�
400 yds = 1310fps/495fpe/-63.8�
500 yds = 1162fps/390fpe/-118.6�

At 500 yards the .300 Blackout still has more velocity and energy than the 147g 9mm load has at the muzzle of a carbine.

A sub-sonic 220g .300 Blackout load has more muzzle energy (508fpe) and a lot more mass than the 147g 9mm load and velocity (1020fps vs estimated 1090fps) is very close.

The.300 Whisper/Blackout can run 168g bullets at 1700fps from a 10� barrel and 190g bullets at 1600fps per Hornady�s 8th Edition. If you need to penetrate heavy clothing, doors, walls or other barriers I�ll go with the extra mass, higher S.D. and higher velocity and maybe a stouter bullet like the TTSX/TAC-X.

So what is it that makes the 147g 9mm carbine load better?

"So what is it that makes the 147g 9mm carbine load better?"

I'd go back and re-read the part about 147gr expanding bullets and especially the subsonic part.

But I do love the enthusiasm of the 300BK crowd...

There ya go.

Amazing how this round got "cool" when AAC got behind it. I'm all for it, by the way. I can see it for what it is and isn't, though.

Thanks fellows, for all the great advise! And yes, my original intent was to find a AR 15 Platform/caliber for Suppressed Hog & Varmit Hunting only Here in Texas. The only caliber requirement here is that it must be a centerfire cartridge of .222 caliber or above.
Texas Parks & Wildlife passed new regulations allowing the use of legal suppressors for any game animal or varmits this year. I guess I might eventually work up a deer load for does without the Suppressor so my nieces & nephews can harvest some venison.
If I am hunting big bucks during the rut here in N.Texas, I prefer my trusty old .264 Win.Mag with a 125gr Nosler Partition. When I want to carry a "light" rifle, I break out my old Winchester Featherweight in 7X57 caliber. It shoots 140gr Sierras like a house on fire with handloads.
Anyhow... Looks like the 300 Whisper will be the way to go instead of the .30 AR cartridge. Guess I will be spending my next pay check on S&W M&P AR in .300 Whisper... I've got plenty of "real" deer rifles. So this new toy will be a strictly suppressed fun gun for hogs & varmints that I see while in my tree blind. It will be nice to elliminate some pigs without spooking the deer...

OK�


We definitely agree on the same bolts and mags but would I add that the ability to use supersonic and subsonic loads with the same gas port setting (i.e. a fixed port) is also an advantage.

We also agree on the use of lighter bullets at supersonic velocities, which are not just comparable to the 7.62x39 but beat it handily, as it does a .30-30 with FP or RN bullets.

That leaves the question of subsonic performance with 147g (or pick your weight) projectiles.

From �Federal HST Duty Ammo�, written by Mike Doyle, published in January, 2011, and available here:
http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/articlearchive/details.aspx?ID=208216



Here�s an abstract on �Rise and Fall of the 9mm Subsonic Hollowpoint�, written in 1992 by E. Sanow, a name I think you�ll recognize. The abstract is available here: https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/publications/Abstract.aspx?id=138913



OK, the Sanow article was written 12 years ago and there are better bullets now. The question remains regarding today�s best subsonic 9mm/147g loads vs. subsonic .300 Blackout/220g versatility and performance. If we look ***ONLY*** at subsonic performance, a 9mm/147g load with today�s best bullets may be a better choice in some applications. I am not, however, anywhere near convinced that such a load in a carbine is better in all cases or even in the majority of cases. They may be great in handguns but I�m old school and run 115g +P+ loads in mine. (I may want to rethink that.)

Back to the carbines, I�d prefer to rely on the heavier mass of the 220g for penetration against a variety of barriers, including multiple barriers (walls and heavy clothing, for example). Since I�m not LE and live in the country, I�m not too worried about over-penetration � shooting bad guys near crowds isn�t a likely scenario. Nor is needing a subsonic round to begin with, which brings up the ***OVERALL*** versatility of the .300 Blackout. A .223 isn�t legal for big game hunting in Colorado while the .300 Blackout is, and that is a more like scenario for me than a need for suppressed or subsonic loads.

For my needs (country living again), a supersonic defense round is preferred, one that will double for varmints and hunting. The Barnes 110g TAC-X looks pretty good and I bought a box of 125g Nosler Ballistic Tip bullets to try. Here are some results from barrier tests with a Barnes 110g TTSX:





Never been a big fan of the 9mm, although I own one and carry it daily in my car, and carry a .380 a lot. That said, I feel best protected when carrying my .45.

In a limited use case, a carbine with 9mm/147 subsonic rounds and newer bullets might be preferred � but in terms of overall versatility I much prefer the .300 Blackout. Let�s face it, the likelihood is that 100% of my shooting will be at the range or in the field and the chances of my needing a subsonic round for defense are vanishingly small. In the event that I ***DO*** need to use the .300 Blackout the last thing I�m going to worry about is whether I�m shooting subsonics or supersonics � but in either event I have confidence it will perform as needed.

A subsonic 147g 9mm generates 360fpe @ 1050fps where a 220g Matchking generates 539fpe at the same velocity. At 100 yards a Hornady XTP is down to 299fpe while the 220g Matchking, at 501fpe, retains 68% more energy. In fact, the 220g Matchking has more energy at 1,000 yards (317fpe) than the 9mm/147g has at 70 yards (314fpe).

Is �with subsonic ammo, a 9mm carbine is a much better option with today's 147gr expanding bullets� really the case? Perhaps in crowded urban areas. While I think they might make fine loads for handguns, I�m not convinced they are any better or even necessarily as good as a subsonic 220g .308� for my more rural needs.

"We also agree on the use of lighter bullets at supersonic velocities, which are not just comparable to the 7.62x39 but beat it handily, as it does a .30-30 with FP or RN bullets"

Since when does a smaller case (300BK) push the same bullet faster than a bigger case (30-30)? No way the 300BK beats the 30-30 when loaded with equal bullets and equal pressures.

So why limit yourself if subsonic isn't in your plans?

TWR -

If you look I qualified the .30-30 with �FP or RN bullets�. They simply loose velocity too fast to keep up with the Blackout at longer ranges. The higher BC of Hornady�s FTX and MonoFlex bullets allow the .30-30 to beat the Blackout. Handloads for the .30-30 can also beat the Blackout in terms of energy delivered out to 300 yards.

I was also thinking, although I didn�t state it, of classic .30-30 rifles like the Winchester �94 and Marlin 336 with factory ammo. You can certainly load the .30-30 to higher pressures if loading for stronger actions.

For example, the Hornady factory 150g RN load has a claimed 1276fps/542fpe @ 300 yards and their 170g FP load has 1186fps/530fpe. By contrast, a Barnes 110g TAC-X launched at 2415fps retains a calculated 666fpe at 300 yards. Hornady�s 110g V-MAX load for the .300 Whisper/Blackout has 1651fps/622fpe at 300 yards. The advantage goes to the .300 Whisper/Blackout at longer ranges.

Who is limiting themselves to subsonic? Certainly not me, although I do plan to try them and expect they will make fun plinkers.

My point is the whole reason for the 300 Whisper was in a supressed gun with subsonic ammo.

Now the 300BK comes along and people are acting like it's a dragon slayer. It is not.

So if you don't have a suppressor, why the 300BK? Why not a 6mm-223, 223WSSM, 6MM RAT, 6WOA, 6.8SPC, 6.5 Grendel, there are several options that fit in an AR-15 and smoke the 300BK.

And having only fired a supressed MP5 in 9MM, a 223 supressed and a 308 Wincheaster supressed, I just don't see why all the hype. There has to be more to it than picking the best bullet in one and the worst in another to compare...

If shooting subsonic and staying below 1,100 fps, the more lead and bullet mass the better.

DF

Which brings me all the way back to my first post on this thread.

If you want a supressed subsonic hunting round then the 458 socom is a much better choice than the 300BK. 350gr @ 1000 fps is going to be an effective killer, not a dragon slayer, but certainly plenty good for broadside shots on hogs and deer.



Yes, you can't use a .223 bolt, but an upper will drop right on and you can use .223 mags.

I don't have anything against the 300bk, and I've been thinking long and hard about getting one. The trouble is, I don't see that for me it would do anything that I couldn't do with a supressed 22rf.

TWR �

It is true there are a bunch of loads that �smoke� the .300 Blackout in terms of velocity and energy. Some of them are certainly better choices for most big game hunting, � just as most of by bolt rifles �smoke� my .30-30 and are better choices for most of my hunting purposes � and yet I still hunt with the .30-30. The point of the .300, though, is versatility.

For my Marlin .45-70 I load a variety of loads. One of my favorites is very economical and subsonic hardcast plinking loads (1097fps for 350g and 1167fps for 300g) that cost me around $2.60 a box last time I checked. My daughters love these, too. On the other end of the spectrum I load 460g hardcast to 1812fps/3353fpe and jokingly call them my �Rhino Blaster� loads, for use against the odd rhinoceros running loose in my backyard (a pretty rare event in Colorado ). These loads are pretty brutal compared to most of my rifles, with about 48foot-pounds recoil, but for slaying dragons these are the loads I would want. My normal hunting loads are 350g at 2183fps/3703fpe. My practice loads use 300g jacketed bullets.

What do I shoot the most of, by far? The low recoil, subsonic cast plinkers by a factor of 10x or more. Versatility works for me. I don�t have a suppressor for the .45-70, either.

As to bullet selection, I�m not the one that brought up 147g bullets in the 9mm. Pick any bullets you like, I�m comfortable with the capabilities of the .300W Whisper/Blackout and will take it any day over anything in 9mm Luger for my purposes.

[Edited to add...]

BTW, If "smoking" something was my first priority I would have chosen an AR10, not an AR-15. My AR-15 was a considered choice as was the 5.56 NATO upper. The .300 Whisper/Blackout upper was just frosting.

Fair enough.

I have shot the .458 Socom, .450 Bushmaster, and the .50 AR. They are all great rounds, and I agree that they would be a good suppressed hog gun. But, there are 3 reasons I ruled them out in my search for a suppressed hog round.
First reason was too much recoil, as my young nieces & nephews will be using this AR for close range Hogging. The second reason was that with the .300 Whisper or ACC / Blackout platform, I can stuff more rounds in a standard AR 20 round mag. I never shoot more than a couple of rounds while I'm hog hunting, but 1- 20 round Mag is all I usually carry. Don't like extra mags or rounds rattling around in my pocket. And, in Texas, there is no restriction on the amount of rounds your rifle holds while hunting. We are not limited to a 4 or 5 round capacity like Colorado and most other states that I hunt in.
The last reason is that I all ready own a Trapddoor & a Marlin Lever gun in 45-70. Both of which are great hog guns even with the original 45-70 load witha 405gr cast bullets. If I really want a badass hog gun, I have some handloads for the Marlin that I'm shooting 425gr Hard cast bullets at 1750 FPS. They hurt on both ends....
One last reason... I was all ready considering a suppressor for my Ruger Scout in .308
And with the right type of .30 cal suppressor adapter, I can use it on both the .300 Whisper & my Ruger Scout. Sort of killing 2 birds with one stone, as the say.
BTW, as to the 9mm debate, I consider it a plinking round at best. I carry a mini/compact 9 as a back-up to my 1911 for concealed carry. I feel naked if I leave the Ranch with just my 9mm. I've killed a couple of hogs with it, but it's defiantly not my 1st choice. It's hard to beat a good ole .45acp or 45colt. If I'm strictly bow hunting & I'm in Bear Country. I carry a 10mm Glock stoked with 15 rounds of 200gr Hornady XTP's going 1350fps.

I have a .300 now set up for home defense with 16" barrel, prism sight, and grip with laser. It's a couple inches shorter than a "tactical" shotgun, with better ergos and higher mag capacity. It's loaded with 220 gr subsonic loads, which function nicely.

The upper is a 1 in 8 CMMG and while my handloads run about 1.75-2 MOA, factory loads are about twice that much I'm debating on buying a better .300 Blk barrel, or buying one of the new S&W's, which have 7.5 twist and 5R rifling. The CMMG does seem slightly better with supersonic loads, but I have not tested them extensively.

Coyote Hunter, I'm glad you like your 300. If I didn't have a 6.8 I'd probably be interested in one myself. You still haven't comprehended my post, though.

That would make a great house gun. Better yet, buy you a 10" barrel and a class III stamp for a more handy house gun.... I'm Definately going with the S&W M&P because of the twist & rifling. Guess I'll have to retire my old 12 ga 18" Side by Side house gun

No mention of pronghorn...I am disappointed.

I think I comprehend it, I just don't agree that "As far as terminal ballistics with subsonic ammo, a 9mm carbine is a much better option with today's 147gr expanding bullets."

A 6.5 or 6.8 upper is probably in my future.

OK OK... My favorite Prairie Goat gun is my 6mm ! Guess I'll have to come visit you. I'm sure you would JUST love to take me hunting in the land of Antelopes...