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Joined: Oct 2002
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 Likes: 1 |
Bottom line is: Who cares Any sane hunter does not choose his bullets by this horse pucky..He chooses from experiences from yourself or even outfitters who have seen what works and what don't. Never seen two old timers talking elasticity.Elasticity is what keeps your swimming trucks up not what kills game. Jayco WTF is a swimming truck?
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Campfire Tracker
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Leave it to you...Swimming trunks/sweat pants anything with an elastic band.My bad spelling. Jayco
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Joined: Oct 2002
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 Likes: 1 |
Even old timers could spell that one correctly.
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Joined: Feb 2004
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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I have the option to respond to you in a bad way or just ignore you like a man without the ignore button.....
I take the first option this time.
Jayco
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OP
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Joined: Dec 2009
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Bottom line is: Who cares Any sane hunter does not choose his bullets by this horse pucky..He chooses from experiences from yourself or even outfitters who have seen what works and what don't. Never seen two old timers talking elasticity.Elasticity is what keeps your swimming trucks up not what kills game. Jayco What experience? Most hunters get the opportunity to shoot one or two animals a year. One can't even begin to get a statistically relevant number in a lifetime of two animals a year. In my experience it takes about 50 animals to even begin to get a reliable idea of what a particular bullet will do in game if that is the only data used. Even then most actually kill one deer 50 times rather then having killed 50 deer. The problem with most (most all??) hunters that have killed enough is that they have no idea what they are looking at when it comes to terminal ballistics. They walk up to a deer and see a hole. Maybe some blood in the chest. That's about it. This is one of the reasons why people are so concerned with what a bullet looks like after it has killed. It gives them something they can hold in their hand, stare at, and "compare" to something else because they don't know how to interpret the damage they see in animals. To a ballistician it's just one more piece of data. What they really care about is what that bullet did before it stopped. As far as your experience from outfitters, it is my experience that while guides may be good guides and they may be good hunters they are generally behind when it comes to the technical side of gear. If one tells me that a certain valley has elk in it I will probably check it out, however if that same one freaks out when I go to adjust my turret.... well excuse me while I get my kill on......
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Joined: Oct 2002
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 Likes: 1 |
One or two? I don't live in Rhode Island.
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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OP
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That's why I never quoted you..... grin
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Bob is correct. Nowhere I have offered opinions on what bullet should be used for what game.
I picked three bullets to illustrate the differences in projectile selection and that even though they all have exactly the same "energy" they perform very, very differently. The Barnes is used because it is one of the deepest penetrating, narrowest wound channel bullets, the AMAX because it is one of, if not, the most violent heavy for caliber expanding/fragmenting bullets, and the Accubond because it is right in the middle and approximates what almost all controlled expansion bullets will do.
This is how I select what bullet to use in what cartridge and caliber and on what animal. First I want to be able to use the rifle to its limit. Which for just about all normal centerfire, bolt action rifles is +/-600 yards. So for me that bullet has to be able to expand/upset at 1,600 to 1,800 fps. Then I want it to exit the animal most of the time on quartering shots. I'm talking from the back of the ribs, to the offside shoulder.
Once those parameters have been filled I will choose the bullet that offers the biggest wound channel available while still meeting the expansion/penetration I want.
Quite a few have asked what bullets I use and so below are the cartridges and bullets I use the most for deer, for the results I want. That doesn't mean I'm saying they are the best for you.
223/5.56- Just about any of the controlled expansion, blind to barrier 62+ grain bullets available (Federal 62gr Fusion, and the identically constructed Speer 64gr Gold Dot, 60gr Partition, Federal MK318 SOST, 62gr TBBC, etc. The Barnes TSX (esp. the 53gr, and 55gr) offers good performance out to 200 or so yards as velocity drops too low past that. The Hornady 75gr AMAX is good in bolt actions and at long range.
243Win/243WSSM- 95gr Nosler Ballistic Tip. This bullet offers nearly perfect penetration and expansion for deer in my experience. That bullet was designed, made, and tuned for the 243Win by Gail Root from what I understand and deer just collapse at the shot. The Barnes 85gr TSX with its narrow wound channel does not damage enough tissue for me and we get a lot of runners. In addition past the 250 to 300 yard mark wounds are small due to low expansion. It does offer great penetration for bigger game, though oddly enough we have caught more 85gr TSX's in deer then any other bullet. For specific LR bullets the 105gr AMAX and 105gr HPBT from Hornady, the 105gr Berger VLD, and the 115gr DTAC have all worked well.
7mm WSM- these are our dedicated LR guns and we use bullets for that. Mainly the 162gr AMAX and 162gr HPBT from Hornady.
308Win- 168gr AMAX. This bullet performs like a larger 95gr NBT in the 243. Nearly perfect IMO. If I wanted a bit less expansion and more penetration the 165/168gr Nosler Ballistic Tip is wonderful. Of course almost any bullet works great in this cartridge though.
300Win Mag- 178gr AMAX. Most devastating cartridge/bullet combination I have seen. I rarely use it anymore as the meat damage can be extreme.
Those are what I and the group I hunt with tend to use for deer. For Elk and bigger things might change. When I have an Elk and deer tag in my pocket I use a bullet that is good for the bigger animal and it will work on the deer too. Even though I can specialize a bit because I mostly hunt Whitetails and Mule deer, Bob, Mule Deer, etc have it right. For an all around bullet the Partition, Accubond, Bitterroot, and other similar bullets are most diffidently the best performers across the board from Moose to Antelope. if I had to pick one type of bullet for everything those would be it.
Sorry, all information is rendered moot if you are not shooting a 257 Weatherby Mag. Deer rifles begin and end there. (Couldn't Resist!) Dober, I found a Vanguard BackCountry that did wonders on my first Dall ram using 120 Gr Partitions(Duh!)
Last edited by kroo88; 08/19/12.
I retired from the Johns Manville asbestos pop tart factory in ‘59, and still never made the connection.—-Slumlord
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Campfire Outfitter
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So Coyote...Explain why a .458 flat nosed bullet penetrates farther than the same in round nose or why that flat pointed cast did more damage than a 180 grain Core-Lokt on basically the same shot. ... Too many unknown variables there to explain or even confirm anything. What I can confirm is that a .308� 180g Barnes MRX can out-penetrate a .458� bullet or be out-penetrated by one, do more damage than a .458� bullet or less � depending on a variety of factors. The photo below shows a number of bullets recovered from water jugs. From left to right: Speer 300g Uni-Cor .458", Speer 350g FP .458", North Fork 350g .458", Cast Performance 460g WFNGC .458", Hornady 220g FP .375", Barnes 180g MRX .308" Sorted by number of jugs penetrated with bullet type, velocity and energy: 5 jugs = Hornady 220g FP .375", 2230fps, 2429fpe (.375 Win) 6 jugs = Speer 300g Uni-Cor .458", 2247fps, 3363fpe (.45-70) 6 jugs = North Fork 350g .458", 2189fps, 3726fpe (.45-70) 7 jugs = Barnes 180g MRX .308", 3100fps, 3841fpe (.300 WM) 8 jugs = Speer 350g FP .458", 2147fps, 3582fpe (.45-70) 9 jugs = Cast Performance 460g WFNGC .458", 1812fps, 3362fpe (.45-70) 9 jugs with exit = Speer 500g African Grand Slam .458�, 1554fps, 2681fpe (not recovered) (.45-70) Interestingly, the bullet that penetrated best (in repeated tests over the years) has had the least velocity and energy: 11 jugs with exit = Oregon 300g Trail LaserCast .458�, 1167fps, 907fpe (none ever recovered) (.45-70) The number of jugs penetrated doesn�t begin to tell the story of the damage done. The most destructive was the 350g North Fork, which blew a hole the size of the water jug base in the 5/16� plywood supporting the lead jug. That bullet also blew up several jugs behind the first. The 500g bullet did more damage than some, less than others, and passed through 9 jugs before exiting the side and continuing on. The .308� 180g MRX was very destructive and penetrated well. The best penetrators, the 300g LaserCast FP at a paltry 1167fps/907fpe, also did the least damage by a significant margin. We have never recovered one of these. Water jugs are water jugs not game, so take the above results for just that � results in water jugs. My on-game results are limited to three of the above bullets: .375 Win/220g Hornady FP, antelope at 167 yards, broadside with exit, death leap and down. .45-70/350g North Fork, buck mulie at 192 yards, quartering away with exit, a few feet and down with massive leakage. .45-70/350g North Fork, 6x6 bull elk at 213 yards, broadside, obliterated a section of left front leg, obliterated a section of near-side rib, shattered far side rib and stopped under the hide. The bull just toppled over. .300WM/180g MRX, doe mulie at ~300 yards, front to rear with exit, straight down. .300 WM/180g MRX, doe mulie at ~ 300 yards, broadside with exit, straight down. What design penetrates best or does the most damage? It all depends�
Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 08/20/12.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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I'll be honest. Before coming on hunting forums. (not that long) I never thought about any of this. I used a Partition since the 50's, killed game, and never thought about it.
When a bullet never fails you. I don't see a need to change, or think about it very much. My concern was to always become a better hunter.
We use a saying in fly fishing to those who are new to casting.
Paralysis by analysis.
Last edited by Mauser_Hunter; 08/20/12.
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2005
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I'll be honest. Before coming on hunting forums. (not that long) I never thought about any of this. I used a Partition since the 50's, killed game, and never thought about it. You'll never go wrong doing that, as you obviously already know.
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
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Posts: 35,900
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2007
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300Win Mag- 178gr AMAX. Most devastating cartridge/bullet combination I have seen. I rarely use it anymore as the meat damage can be extreme.
I have noticed a generally higher level of trauma than smaller calibers when 30 caliber bullets are started at magnum velocities;especially with bullets designed for lots of splash.....this can vary a bit with bullet construction,but is the reason I have always "lumped" 30 caliber magnums with medium bores,like 338 and 8mm, giving similar velocity with similar weight bullets,etc. Based on my own half-assed observations the next "breaking point" in the caliber line up is 375 bore.This SEEMS to me to be the point where I see more wounding trauma,but I could be wrong.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Coyote Hunter, we're dancing around two sides of the same coin here. My example shows my point, though. Even though projectile 1 transferred 100% of its energy, that doesn't buy me ANYTHING on its own. Projectile 2 (identical energy up to impact) takes care of business with minimal energy transfer. That's the point of the statement that energy transfer is not a wounding mechanism. It does establish (among other factors) the *potential* of a projectile. Even with that given, it still isn't *doing* any wounding.
RLTW
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Joined: Feb 2004
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Coyote Hunter, we're dancing around two sides of the same coin here. My example shows my point, though. Even though projectile 1 transferred 100% of its energy, that doesn't buy me ANYTHING on its own. Projectile 2 (identical energy up to impact) takes care of business with minimal energy transfer. That's the point of the statement that energy transfer is not a wounding mechanism. It does establish (among other factors) the *potential* of a projectile. Even with that given, it still isn't *doing* any wounding. It is the transferred energy that accelerates and thus causes deformation (wounding) of the target. The amount of energy available, the amount and efficiency with which it is transferred and the time element for the transfer all play a role in determining the amount of deformation/wounding. You say it is not the "wounding mechanism", basic physics says that without the energy transfer no wounding occurs. My only concern is doing my best to make sure the deformation occurs in the right place. To that end I chose bullets that perform according to specific criteria that I believe increase the odds of a favorable outcome when things go south. Most any bullet will work when things go as planned.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2007
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I'm just gonna hunt so good this year that every critter is relaxed and broadside and inside 100 yards. And Boone & Crocket. I'll just pass on any other opportunity.
Then I'll lord over y'all what puzzies you are.
It's gonna be GREAT.
The CENTER will hold.
Reality, Patriotism,Trump: you can only pick two
FÜCK PUTIN!
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Formidilosus, thank you very much for this thread. The charts with the cavities in gelatin made by the different bullets, scaled and super imposed on the deer drawings are formidable. I have been interested in temrina ballistics for a long time, and have taked the trouble of testing different bullets in a large number of animals including 5 cull hunts in South Africa and Namibia which account for almost 350 animal on their own. My experience agrees with your conclusions regarding the effectiveness on soft-frangible bullets on game. In the last years of my hunting life I have shifted towards harder bullets like Lutz M�ller's KJG and MJG, Barnes TSX and now TTSX, GS Custom's HV, and the like. The reason is that I now take an added enjoyment in careful and precise shooting and bullet placement, and that I find somehow disgusting the amount of damage a fast, soft, frangible bullet may produce. Again, thank you for your observations, and best regards, Alvaro
PS: have you worked your charts with any .224 bullet on deer?I'd love to see them!!
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I'm just gonna hunt so good this year that every critter is relaxed and broadside and inside 100 yards. And Boone & Crocket. I'll just pass on any other opportunity.
Then I'll lord over y'all what puzzies you are.
It's gonna be GREAT.
Hey! Get your own story. That's mine ya puzzy!
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.
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Campfire Regular
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Coyote Hunter, we're dancing around two sides of the same coin here. My example shows my point, though. Even though projectile 1 transferred 100% of its energy, that doesn't buy me ANYTHING on its own. Projectile 2 (identical energy up to impact) takes care of business with minimal energy transfer. That's the point of the statement that energy transfer is not a wounding mechanism. It does establish (among other factors) the *potential* of a projectile. Even with that given, it still isn't *doing* any wounding. It is the transferred energy that accelerates and thus causes deformation (wounding) of the target. The amount of energy available, the amount and efficiency with which it is transferred and the time element for the transfer all play a role in determining the amount of deformation/wounding. You say it is not the "wounding mechanism", basic physics says that without the energy transfer no wounding occurs. My only concern is doing my best to make sure the deformation occurs in the right place. To that end I chose bullets that perform according to specific criteria that I believe increase the odds of a favorable outcome when things go south. Most any bullet will work when things go as planned. Without the gunpowder in your cartridge no wounding occurs, but it isn't the gunpowder doing the wounding. Which is meaningful to determine the the nature and extent of the damage done by a projectile: Bullet A transferred 3,000ft/lbs of energy to the target Bullet B expanded to 0.650" diameter, penetrated 17" through the vitals, and left a permanent cavity that averages 1" in diameter Clearly the figures for "energy transfer" are meaningless. Of course energy is transferred. Of course energy is required to create a permanent cavity. But energy transfer tells us jack squat about the wounding that's done. This has been fun. I haven't had a good civil internet argument in a while. Makes me feel young & stupid again.
RLTW
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Campfire Outfitter
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... This has been fun. I haven't had a good civil internet argument in a while. Makes me feel young & stupid again. Civil is good and I appreciate your sincerity and your civility. I think we agree on the major points. It�s clear the energy transfer and wounding needs to be done in a manner that is effective - on that we agree completely.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Hey I see you're a NRAWC life member. You in Raton? I LOVE it out there. Raton may not exactly be a garden spot, but I love the area. Haven't had the salad wagon at K-Bobs in a couple years now. Used to make it out a couple times a year.
RLTW
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