Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Intelligent Design

If you take God out of the origins of the earth and life, you imply that Genesis is wrong. If the Bible is wrong, the belief system is unfounded. That is why Christians are so strong about intelligent design and creationism. God had to be there somewhere or else it makes our beliefs wrong.


SS

the bible was created by man, not god, therefor it is no surprise o me that it has flaws

The Bible was God inspired, not thought up by man. There is a fundamental difference.


SS

Brian, you "say" they are intermediary... it's IMPOSSIBLE to prove they are, hence "faith"... you deal in conjecture and call it fact...

I can't wait to see the one armed ape with tail fossil.

I believe in God, just call it fire insurance.

My favorite part of the bible is where it explains dinosaurs and pre-historic man. I have to go with VA, they are not mutually exclusive. I can believe in God and not close my eyes to the reality of modern science.

..............sorry was cut off..............correct me if im wrong but........

my understanding of the bible(i never attended church or sunday school on anything resembling a regular basis) is that it is a bunch of ppls eperiances with Jesus and such added in with stuff based on spiritual visins by individual where God spoke to them. so given this understanding it doesnt surprise me that there are contridictions.

for example my wife and i hunt together quite a bit. when we start discussing a past hunt we each remember different things. some things the other forgot, or one person interprited what they saw differently than the other. i would think the same thing goes with the bible.

it is also my understanding that the catholic church picked and choose what to put into the book that became the present day bible and that there are several "books" that were left out cause they didnt fit with the church at that times view of things.

so like my original statement said the bible was made by man and is probably flawed which leads to contridictions. i am not a religious person nor have i ever been but i believe in things that science cannot explain. i also dont quite get the big bang theory. but i do believe in evolution. the problem with it is we are currently seeing life forms that have been living and adapting to their surroundings for millions apon millions apon millions of years there for we are not actually seeing the truely original most simple one celled critters, yah got to figure even the most simple bacteria and such around at the moment have had to adapt to changing conditions somewhat and are no longer as basic as they originally were.

Ranger, the Bible is not a science text, no doubt. However, between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 could be multiplied millions of years. The earth is OLD... dat's a fact that can be proven and which is in no way a contradiction to the bible. Dinosaurs are real and that's a provable fact and in no way contradicts the bible. Evolution cannot be called science as it's unprovable... it's conjecture. It's the beginning of science, ie, form a hypothesis then prove it. Problem is it's not been proven and isn't capable of being proven, hence my assertion it's just as much a "faith" as any religion...

We do have single cell organisms around here, such as paramecium, which are as simple as it gets. My point is that to go from nothing, to a single cell organism (such as paramecium) that has no brain, to the millions of different species and sub-species that we see on earth now is so far fetched as to be borderline ridiculous. It requires more faith to believe in that process than to believe that the hand of God made it happen. The vertebrate zoology courses that I took showed ostriches evolving from crocodiles. If you look at the way the physiological features are divided and organized in zoology you will see that often the "who evolved from who" makes no sense beyond a single physical characteristic. I find that shaky ground to stand on personally.


SS

Most all of evolutions "evidence" has been proven as fakes, lies and forgeries.

The peppered moth, Lucy and other "pre-humans", drawings of fetuses, etc etc. If something is real you don't have to fake it.

The discovery channel now routinely shows huge dinosuars with full body feathers. There is no evidence what so ever to support feathers on dinosuars, but the "scientist" want to prove it so bad they are willing to create forgeries to prove thier points.

There is also plenty of evidence that the earth is not billions of years old. Google "young earth" I believe the truth is somewhere in between 10,000 and several hunderd thousand years. Also google radiometric dating errors. Live turtles and other animals have been dated as 50,000 years old.

Look who is behind the push for evolution- the left coast liberals. Evolution supports an agenda.

I figured that someone would want to bring politics into the mix too.


Hmmm. Religion? Check. Scientific theories? Check. Politics? Check. This should get more hits than the range fee post. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


SS

If you did all that was done in the Bible, and used the Bible as the defining justification, you would discover yourself in jail in short order. For example, Lot (you remember Lot, don�t you? The guy that escaped Sodom and Gomorrah with his two daughters after the wife was turned to a pillar of salt?). Seems they hid out in the mountains after that and the girls thinking they would never be able to have kids cause there were no men in the neighborhood, seduced daddy......got him drunk, did him, and had kids.......lets practice THAT in Sunday School........

I recall asking a young pastor, who was seriously considering asking a deacon to leave the congregation because of an impending divorce, if he would allow an unrepentant, guilty, never convicted because he hid out, murderer to be a leader in his church. His response was �absolutely not.� I then asked him if he would allow a divorcee who abandoned his kids and wife...sent them back to her dad to support......to be a leader in his church. Again, I got the same response. I asked him (and this was a southern pastor) that if the divorcee married a woman outside his race would it be acceptable. Once again I got the same response. I asked him if the CEO of an organization knocked up his administrative assistant or a maid, would that CEO make a good deacon. Again, NO! I informed him that he had just excluded Moses AND Abraham.....two of the few men in history to talk to God, face to face and both are essential to the establishment of his faith.

So with all these contradictions and mixed signals, we have to look at the Bible as what it is. And to do that, you have to look at how it came into being.

For 300 plus years there was NO bible in the Christian community. Jesus had told his disciples that where ever two or more joined together in His name, He would be there as well. Why have a Bible with the author is in the room with you? And how do you know if the words being spoken by the participants is of Jesus and not from the self....yes, self interest was always a problem. He told us to test the spirit by comparing what was being spoken to what you knew about him.

Why did the Bible come about? Quite simple really. It began when Constantine�s mother became Christian and persuaded her son to convert. That made it the state religion which received the religious taxes. (Remember the tax protest nursery rhyme......ba ba black sheep, have you any wool? Yes sir yes sir three bags full......one for the master (the king) one for the dame (the church) and one for the little boy (the farmer).......2 thirds of your productivity went to taxes). So once taxes went to the Christians (and money became the object of the faith.......a historic tradition carried on through men like Oral Roberts and Jim Swaggart) several things occurred.

First, you can�t send lots of tax money to a group of people meeting in houses....which house would get what? Secondly, if you DID send them money, they would just give it away to the poor (it really is what Jesus would have done). Third, if you are going to send lots of money you want to SEE the results of what you send.

So the first thing Constantine did was build a bunch of churches. That way he KNEW where the meetings were, he KNEW where the money was going, and he KNEW how it was being spent. As he was accustomed to attending temples of various types, he had the new Christian churches built along the lines of the old temples.......a place at the front for a priest or preacher, and a place for people to sit (or stand) to listen. No place for Jesus to move individuals, No place for congregational participation, just come in, shut up, and listen.

Needless to say all the priests from other beliefs were now out of jobs......they were no longer living off the taxes. All but a few �faithful� of the other faiths became Christians overnight.....and became Christians with the same allegiance they had been Sun Worshipers or Pagans or whatever.........they followed the rotes and never became wholly vested in the faith.

With all types of priests delivering all types of sermons and rituals, the Christian faith became a hodgepodge of conflicting teachings. And the small home church that had sustained the faith for 300 years disappeared. So to establish consistency in teachings among the various churches Constantine ordered a librarian named Esuebius to form a council to put together writings on faith that could become the �canon� of the faith. Esuebius led the council of Nicea (with Constantine present) in searching the many books and letters that existed. They first established the �heritage� of Jehovah through the writings of the ancient Hebrews and called it the �Old Testament.� Then they looked at all the books and letters that were around from the various apostles and disciples. The determined that the Godhood of Jesus needed to be established so they selected the first books (called the Gospels) which supported the divinity of Jesus (they even used the Gospel of Luke who HAD NEVER KNOWN JESUS, PERSONALLY). Once Jesus as God was established, they turned their attention to how a �Christian� should act and believe.......and there is one underlying theme that they had to instill.....obedience to the King/authority. So the letters they selected included stuff like �slaves should be meek and obey their masters� or �women should not be placed over men� and other things that dealt with day to day actions of a person in a society of kings and peasants. Anything that was suggestive of independence or of personal responsibility was removed or downplayed. Unfortunately for the Kings, when the gospels actually quoted Jesus or told an anecdote about Jesus, the truths of his life was glaringly contradictory to BOTH the God of the Old Testament AND the �good slave� of the latter parts of the New Testament.

But this Bible, established by an Emperor to be used to keep the people in line and determine a hard line of faith to be followed (after the creation of this Bible came the persecution of Gnostic�s, the inquisition, etc.....all non-Jesus acts). And during the reformation, the Bible as conceived by Constantine, was the basis for the argument.........there was NEVER a re-visitation of the circumstances of establishing a �canon� nor was there a serious movement, except among a very few people, to re-establish the church as it was originally......that of a home based group where two or more would get together in the name of Jesus. And many of those that DID practice that were tortured and murdered BY the church that was supposed to represent the Prince of Peace.

During the era when the Bible was assembled (remember, it was assembled around 300 AD, it was a collection of writings and verbal history from lots of men over two thousand years), women and children were considered property. They could be sold, given away, or killed.....whatever the man of the house decided to do with them. Can you imagine the uproar had the Gospel of Mary been included in the Bible? Where Thomas is angry at Mary for telling them things that Jesus had told her and not them. He yells at her "Why would He tell you, a woman, things He would not tell us?" And Levi (Matthew) tells Thomas "You know He walked with her many times alone and that she was favored above all women.....why WOULDN'T He tell her things in private?" The very attitude, in that day and age, that women had rights or had worth would have set society on it's head.

Not all the books were included because not all books supported the status quo of the Roman Empire.

An example: During the era when the Bible was assembled (remember, it was assembled around 300 AD, it was a collection of writings and verbal history from lots of men over two thousand years), women and children were considered property. They could be sold, given away, or killed.....whatever the man of the house decided to do with them. Can you imagine the uproar had the Gospel of Mary been included in the Bible? Where Thomas is angry at Mary for telling them things that Jesus had told her and not them. He yells at her "Why would He tell you, a woman, things He would not tell us?" And Levi (Matthew) tells Thomas "You know He walked with her many times alone and that she was favored above all women.....why WOULDN'T He tell ehr things in private?" The very attitude, in that day and age, that women had rights or had worth would have set society on it's head.

And picture the response to the devine right of kings if this quote, from the Gospel of Thomas had made it into the Bible:



and this one from the same book/letter:


This is from the "Prince of Peace?" what kind of chaos would have reigned throughout the empire?????

And from the Gospel of James........did you ever wonder why Mary was blessed as the mther of jesus? Here is a brief description of her birth:



Interesting the things that were left out........the "miraculous" birth and raising of Mary (guess women didn't count for much), the length James went to keep his daughter a virgin, that Jesus did not come to bring peace, but strife........

And when you see the persecution and war between the "official" church and the "unofficial" churches it is no wonder it took hundreds of years before a drunk priest named Martin Luther began the reformation.......and by that time he was arguing about the interpretation of, NOT the inerrant word of God, but a book designed to support kings and supress liberty.

Yeah, and that whole moonlanding thingy was faked... damn east coast liberals <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Good one Brad. Thanks for the chuckle at the end of the day...


SS

lol aint that the truth.

the earth only 10,000 years old? ive pulled fossils out of a hillside with my own two hands. i find it hard to believe that all the worlds fossils from ancient sea life to dinosaurs to prehistoric mammals have all been created within the last 10,000 years. thats harder for me to believe than either evolution or creationism. as to the feathers on dinosaurs thing, you havent seen some of the more recently discovered fossils have you? some are showing small dinosaurs with downy feathers and primitive plumage. the science is adapting to take into consideration the current discoveries like it should. alot of the stuff scientists originally thought about dinosaurs 100 years ago have been proven wrong via current discoveries or more objective minds looking over old data.

OMG! [Yes, God] That takes the cake!!!!!!!!

Maybe we can have a trial in TN. over this one, like they did with the Scopes/monkey trial. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The basis of all that we came from rock.

Well, gosh darn, I wanna propose a different theory.

Reverse evolution

I see no evidence that beings evolved from rock.

However, fossils prove all must evolve to rock.

Yep, reverse evolution <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I have read some things about the flood being the cause of many of the fossils that we find. To be honest, I'm not sure about how they were laid down, other than it was through catastrophic events. They would have to be similar to what happened at Pompeii but on a much larger scale. Arguing about what dinosaurs looked like, and the age of the earth is a lot of semantics to me. Regardless of those things, it boils down to how did we get to where we are. I cannot believe that it was completely random and through genetic recombination (which, incidentally is usually detrimental and not passed on due to the side effect of sterility). There had to be something there to guide it, and it's not hard to believe that it was God. Some people just don't want to believe that there is a God out there, yet they believe that there is life on another planet. Both take the same amount of faith, but only one requires a personal responsibility.


SS

MumboJumbo discussions always did humor me.

I can see where this might get good.

Put me in the [bleep] Happens Faction,of the how/why Theorum,as to where we are Today....................