Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting build me a long range bear rifle

Sounds like you got yourself a good deal! If it was me I may be concerned about obtaining 300RUM ammo. I suspect that 300 Weatherby ammo is easier to locate. Good hunting to you!

It's late, I'm tired but I just couldn't help myself.....


So the requirements are for 450 yards out to 750 yards on medium/big game. $3,500 budget. The op has a 308win with a 2-7x redfield. Says that 750 yards falls within his comfort zone yet has no LR rifles, but he shoots with buddies a bit and uses their rifles so he's good for half mile cross canyon shots...... right?


Given those parameters we have posters suggesting, 7lb 7mm RUM's, 300 RUM's, and 338 RUM's. 338/378 Weatherby's, 340 Weatherby's, 28in barrels, 225gr Barnes TTSX's (really????), and Ziess scopes.



Can we get a reality check please.



Seems to me we have a bunch of guys suggesting the latest gun they bought, or their cooked up fantasy LR dream gun without a whole lot of busted caps at LR to base that suggestion on. Tanner and BSA seem to be the only ones in reality land.


From the info provided I am 99.99999% sure we have an individual with very little long range experience. Given that anyone that shoots LR a lot has at least one rifle and scope capable of LR shots (not a 2-7x Redfield) and would know what calibers, cartridges, rifle type, and scopes are suitable for 750 yard shots. Don't you think? You guys really think a 7lb 338 RUM with a Ziess scope and launching 225gr Barnes bullets is the best answer for 800 yard animals for someone with little experience? Heck for someone extremely experienced?


Why don't we come back to reality. Minimally experienced shooter? 800 yard cross canyon shots? (probably the toughest winds to deal with and the hardest to call). So not only have we crossed into true long range shooting, but added the most difficult shooting conditions as well. Then we add a lightweight 300 or 338 super magnum rifle shooting bullets that will barely expand or fail to expand at the distance required? On top of it he's going to mount a Ziess hunting scope? Really?



What his needs tell me is that he has crossed over from general hunting rifles into dedicated LR rifles. He didn't say bear hunting with the occasional 5 or 600 yard shot, he said his shots will be from 450 out 750 yards as a general thing.

I am a big fan of lightweight and normal hunting rifles. I.E. under 10lbs. They can be used exceptionally well out to 600+/- yards and if I have a very good spotter I might push one out to 800yds or so. Past that 600 yard zone I do not expect 1st round hits in anything but the most perfect conditions on deer size targets. I would guess 70-80% at 800 with my general hunting rifles and a trained spotter from field positions. That's with 300 Win Mags. 7mm RM's and WSM's, 243win's, etc. Not guns with truly big recoil- a la Reminton Ultra Mags and 338/378 Weatherbys.

For 800 yard shooting I'll skip right over my hunting rifles and go straight to my dedicated guns. I personally would start and stop in on the 7mm Remington Magnum or the 7mm WSM and like cartridges. Why? Because with good bullets they offer good terminal performance at LR and will match or beat the big .338 guns in drop and drift to 1K or so while having half the recoil. The medium 30 caliber rounds such as the 300WM, Weatherby, WSM, etc work well too. Keep in mind though, given the same level of recoil and the same amount of powder burnt, the 7mm's crush the 30 cals in drop/drift.

For under 1k rifles I'm not talking about 18-20lb behemoths. My sniper competition partners rifle (which I actually shoot the comps with) is about model perfecto. 7WSM, 24in barrel, Manners carbon fiber stock, Bushnell HDMR 3.5-21x50mm scope, shooting 162gr Hornady AMAX's or HPBT bullets. With loaded 5 round mag and short bipod it weighs about 12-13 pounds I believe. It shoots extremely well and most importantly is consistent enough for true 800 yard work.


I am not a fan of hunting scopes for dedicated LR use. 800 yards is well past the "close enough" range, and no regular scope from Zeiss, Leupold, Bushnell, Swarovski, etc. has the precision, durability and reliability for true LR use. SWFA's SS, Nightforce, [u]some[u] Leupolds, Bushnell's HDMR, Hensoldt, March, possibly the Ziess Diavari, and the S&B PM series offer the precision and consistency that is needed.




If I were the OP I would do a couple of things. First I would buy an SWFA SS 3-9x42 scope- Located here and mount it to the 308win he has. Then I would take a thousand dollars of his budget and buy reloading components. I would pick any bullet suitable for LR, i.e. Berger 155gr VLD, Lapua Scenar 155gr, 155gr Sierra MatchKing Palma, 175gr SMK, Hornady 168gr or 178gr AMAX or BTHP, buy Varget and find a load that will average under 1.5 MOA for 5 round groups and then quit worrying about loads and take those 1,000 to 2,000 rounds he loaded and shoot all of it this year from field positions learning how to make wind calls, dial the scope correctly and quickly and find out what he is really capable of. If he is really smart he would attend a LR hunting/shooting course that is at least 2 days long taught by someone that honestly knows what they are doing, thereby cutting the frustration and learning time dramatically.

In addition on the absolute lightest side I would buy a Winchester Extreme Weather in 7mm RM or 7WSM or even better a Coyote Light in 7WSM, or on the heavy side a Tikka T3 Varmint in 7mm RM, a Savage LRH or 110 Tactical or whatever they call the heavy barrel version these days, a Remington Sendero, etc., all in either the 7mm Remington Mag or 7mm WSM. Then either put another SWFA SS 3-9x42 on it, or if he just has to have more power get the 5-20x50 version of the same scope. Find a load with 162gr Hornady AMAX's or BTHP's, with around 70gr of H1000, that will consistently group 5 rounds at 1 MOA or under, and then shoot it just enough to get a feel for the difference in wind holds between it and the 308win.





There is your $3,500 budget with guns and scopes that are setup for success. Basically I just described a light LR Tactical/Sniper competition rifle because that is exactly what it is. If the op has a Rangefinder capable of ranging animals at 1k, a good spotting scope and does the above he will be smoking things at LR by next year. If he follows some of the advice given above he will have an expensive, painful toy and will probably be another "hunter" talking about killing at LR rather then actually doing it.......

10# 7 RM model 700. An 8 inch gong isn't tough at 700+. I don't see the need for uber highend builds for hunting. Just my opinion.

I can tell ya' the one thing I would do for sure. And that is listen to FormD.

And be realistic! 800 yards is a really, really long ways, especially when your target has a pulse.

You`re forgetting a little somethin. My 338-378 Accumark has a brake. Using the 225s, recoil is on par with that of firing a 180 gr 30-06 and weighs 10.8 lbs w/scope. My 31 year old daughter has benched the thing shooting many rounds in one session without a problem.

Secondly, he asked for opinions. Although opinions can be based on things we don`t own using overall knowledge alone, we can also base a few opinions on what we do own whether those opinions are practical or not. The OP can make the decision as to the practicalities of what he reads.

I`m a 30 cal nut and very fond of the 7 mags although I don`t own a 7mm. I also like you am a big fan of the lightweight more compact rifles. Have one!!

But a 300 grainer of the Berger VLD variety fired out of a 338-378 at say 2800-2900 fps, will not only buck the winds better than anything from a 30 or from a 7mm, it will also offer the same or better long range trajectories in most cases as well.

I understand your argument against more recoil especially for someone in the beginning phases of long range shooting and hunting.

But imo, the 338-378 is kinda like havin a big piece of cake and eatin it too. Its only drawbacks are its rifle weight and its approx 48" of rifle OAL which was considered before I bought mine with the understanding that its use would be for LR open country hunting. For myself anyway, those two issues along with any added reloading costs are of no mind or consequence. But that`s me.

For L/R open country and at the bench, the 338-378 Accumark isn`t all that much of a beast as most would think or assume. It is a loud SOB though! But my hearing protection can handle it........

Darn well said Formid, only thing I'd add and have refrained from as it's been a long week and I don't need the drama but here goes......

I have no problemo with trained shooters taking deer/elk/lopes at long range. But to me (and I have a bit of bruin experience) I find the idea of taking shots at bruins past 500 yds to be fairly silly.

Dober

That sps is a good starting place, then send it to Hill Country Rifles for accurizing. Next put on a scope with proven turret function. I use a 2.5-10 Nightforce on a light weight 270 WSM, and it has worked well on marmots out to 600 yards. You need these good turrets for long range shooting. Vortex is less $ and a good reputation.

Thanks for that post Formidilosus

This rifle will be dedicated for bear hunting only. My Preferred shots will be well under 100 yards...but in reality the area I'm hunting will not allow it. It's VERY steep terrain, thick brush, with open berry patches and meadows thrown in amongst the brush. Your only option is shooting across the canyons. I've tried stalking bear here and it's just too steep.

I do have enough experience in LR shooting to know my own limitations. Roughly 1000 rounds under the supervision/teaching of guys who shoot on alot bigger scale. But as I posted before I plan on buying this rifle soon and practicing all year to be ready. I'm not planning on just buying a rifle and thinking I'll kill a bear at any given distance passed 300 yards. And I still will try getting as close as possible, closer is always better. (I'm not stupid nor do I have a "I killed a bear at blah yardage" ego)....I just know what it's going to take to kill bears in this given area and want to be prepared

A smaller, cheaper, less recoiling calibers is always an option. I've owned both a 7wsm and 270wsm which I shot regularly to 500 yards not quite true LR shooting. But I'm familiar with what the 7wsm can do

Again I just want to build a rifle with the capabilities to kill at the ranges I listed. It's better to be prepared when the time comes....instead of wishing I didn't have to let a huge bear walk due to limitations of my equipment. I will be the one to make the call on what shots I take. My equipment shouldn't decide for me

I agree with Formid and the others completely. Take his advice.


Formidilosus,

The Bushnell HDMR, Sightron SIII, and SS 5-20x50 are obviously excellent scopes, but I notice you never mention Vortex (or the SIII, for that matter). Have you guys played much with the Viper PST scopes? If so, what are your impressions of the model line? How about the Razors?

I'm kinda leaning towards bigsqueeze on this one. Specifically because the header ends with --bear rifle. Shooting bears at long range with pees isn't a good idea. You need mega foot pounds at extreme ranges and a big hole to really clobber a bear. They are one of the toughest critters especially in the autumn when they are all loaded up with fat.
I've even hit bears with my 378 shooting 300 grain bullets near 600 yds and all I found wheen I got where he was - a puddle of blood and pieces of bone laying on the ground and the bear is nowhere to be seen. We didn't have TSX bullets in those days. Remember a 378 will hit at 3000 ft/lbs at 500 yds. A 308 wouldn't even have that at the muzzle.

378,

You talking browns or black bear? The OP is targeting black bear, I don't see how one would shrug off that kind of oomph...

7mm and 308 are too small a caliber to hunt any large bear at those distances. I stand by my post.

exactly what i thought too? 308win!?



1200yds max ALMOST eliminate 7mm and "dont want to shoot past 800 but need a rifle capable of farther"
big knock down power and capability to kill past that?

7mm is nice and flat to 1k as you say "they crush the 30's in drop/drift", but the above states 1200yds. Hmmm?

7mm-162Amax3200fps vs. 300Norma vs 300RUM- 208Amax 3200fps. 7mm lovers always eliminate the "energy" factor while praising them over the 30/338's.

i also stated the sendaro contour was a bit light and i would prefer a Manners and slightly stiffer bbl.

450-750 falls in his comfort zone doesn't sound like a new guy with no experience and wanting to learn to go to 1200. personally passes up the 7mm and leans to 30Mags or 338level i would think?

a 7 Weatherby (7-300) wouldnt be bad or 7Rem Mag/7WSM set up to shoot 180 Berger would be a minimum choice i would think in 7mm but i would still preferr a 30 Mag or 338

bigsqueeze,

The big 338's are great rounds and phenomenal at LR, however they are not needed under a thousand. A 338/378 and 300gr Bergers is an extremely expensive combo. Not to mention the gun to go with it. Some say their Accumarks shoot very well but I have not seen one that is consistent enough for 1,000 plus yard shooting, nor is their design tailored to that.









Hey I'm all for it. While I tend to lean more with Dober when it comes to bears, I hope you kill a monster. For 1k and under, with the occasional shot out to 1,200 or so I still would pick a good 7mm launching 162's or the 180gr Berger. If you are intending to consistently shoot past the 800-1,000 yard range then that is another story and you step into the next class of guns. This is where really big 7mm's, 300's, and the 338's start ruling the roost. It's also where 18-20lb guns start coming in, Nighforces, S&B's, SWFA SS 5-20x50 HD's, Bushnell HDMR's, etc scopes are absolutely needed.











I look for reliability, durability and consistency above all else first. Then I look for features. While the Sightrons are supposed to track well they do not have the features that I require, nor do I have enough information on their durability, so I have never bought one and we hardly ever see them at classes/matches.

As far as Vortex.... My partner was a sponsored shooter for Vortex for a while (so consequently I used them). We had two 5-20 Razors go down on us in matches. Both with the same issue. If you put more than 12 in/lbs of torque on the scope rings it crushes the tube to the point where it locks the parallax adjustment up. Both times were exactly the same- everything was working fine and then in the middle of a stage the gun goes boom and everything went blurry. Turning the parallax knob did not adjust it at all. Loosen the rings up and POP it works.

The first time it happened was to Jeff. Vortex told him his rings were to tight, so we loosened them to 15-16 in/lbs. The second time was to me. We took them to the range and played with it and anything more than 12-13 in/lbs and you risked it locking up. After that he had a 1-4x Razor lose zero in a major 3-Gun match and left Vortex.

The first Viper PST's I played with were very cheesy. The power rings could be twisted fore and aft about 1/16th to almost 1/8th of an inch showing a gap front and back. Now I've heard that they have fixed them, but I also see that there are quite a few with issues still.

I'm not trying to badmouth them but for me, given the issues I've had and the fact that there are truly bombproof scopes both below and just above the Vortex price points I skip right over them.








378Canuck and rem06,

There has been plenty of discussion on "energy" lately, but suffice to say ft pounds of energy is not a wounding mechanism and there is no such thing as "knockdown power". Tissue damage is what kills and the 7mm's with the correct bullets destroy enough tissue at 800-1,000 yards for reliable killing. Yes the big 30's and 338's with the right bullets will damage more, however the other factors they bring tend to not make it worth it.

Formidilosus, I don't want to hijack this thread, but the "knockdown power" thing gets thrown around too much. While tissue damage kills, what are your thoughts on "hydro-static shock"? PM me if you'd like as to not re-direst the OP. Thanks, mtmuley

Well the OP did state "knockdown power" so I think it fits with the discussion unless he states otherwise.....


First I have to ask what your definition of "hydro-static shock" is?

This is what I would be looking to build/buy for 1k and under....





The flash hider is for this-

.........................Formidilosus,,,,,,,,,,Well I did stipulate a few things earlier on this thread regarding the 338-378. It is more power than needed and certainly is more expensive to reload. It is a bit on the extreme side of things.

And IIRC the OP was looking to spend around $3K. Maybe I was mistaken. The new Accumarks go for about $1700 + whatever the scope/rings costs are which will depend on the choice.

So with those stipulations made in my beginning post plus the descriptions the OP described, imo the 338-378 Accumark (although extreme and over the top), would nevertheless make a very good choice. The best choice for most? No!

But then again, some of us are not like most folk when it comes to our choice of firearms.

I will throw something else out: My buddy has a Savage custom shop 7WSM in an Accustock or whatever they call it. You can order the barrel contour about however you want if they have that available. His is like a #4. I shot it lot on Saturday and have shot it last winter. IF you are serious about the ranges you suggested, I propose that you get a Savage custom shop rifle in 7WSM with a #5 or heavier barrel. Mount a decent scope on it. I like a minimum of 20X for those long shots. Others may disagree. I can recommend the Nightforce 5.5-22x50 NXS for starters. You can go cheaper and get a Weaver 4-20 Super Slam or similar for about 1/2 the money.

The rifle will probably cost you about 750?

Jeff's rifle is easily a 1/2 MOA rifle at 600 yards- the longest I have shot it to date.

We use 180 Bergers and SMKS. Out of a 26" barrel I got 3050-3100 fps on Saturday. I think our accuracy node was about 2980 so I have to back off on the loads I just tried (.68 MOA this time around).

Your slightly heavier barrel will help with the longer shots just a little. You will be well under budget and hard pressed to find a more suitable rifle without spending another grand.

For those who are poo-pooing the long ranges shots at bears, I am inclined to agree. BUT, I have 3 friends that are fanatical bear hunters. They shoot bears at long range every year with good results. Last year Todd shot a 600 pound (estimated) boar at 700 yards with a 270 WSM. It was marginal and the bear didn't die immediately. This year he shot his boar (only 400 pounder) at 600 yds with a 7RUM and the 180 Berger. Shot him right through the heart and die on the spot.

With bears, you have to make good shots as they don't leave the best blood trails. Mine took 2 hours to track 300 yds this year! I used a 260AI. Next year I won't. I will wring out my 340 Wby from here on out.

My longest bear has been only 500 yard and it was shot with a 300 Weatherby. Recoil is more but a very fine long range round.

I guess I don't have a definition of "hydro-static" shock. I also really can't subscribe to the whole concept as of right now. Just looking for other opinions. I've read about it some, and there are supporters on both sides. What's your take? mtmuley