Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns why is defense ammo so expensive??

AFAIK this urban legend was started and perpetuated by none other than Massad Ayoob.

He has also said in print that handloaded ammo can be an issue with the right (wrong) prosecuting attorney. My opinion, FWIW, is more along the lines of TLees in that a shooting is either righteous or not. this is the opinion of my frinds in LE as well.

Yes, surely jurisdictions do play a role in the legal process. I'd MUCH rather face a DA from the rural west, than say NYC or NJ.

And yes, the "righteousness" or justification for the shooting is looked at first. A hungry DA could start grasping for straws though, as could the civil attorney who's hoping to make some coin on the ordeal.

Civil attorneys..... One small advantage of now being retired and legally broke Another word for Judgement proof <G>

A wise man once said to "control much but to own very little".

+1 on regional differences. We had a shopowner shoot a gang member who broke into his store here a few months ago. Seems like the shop owner chased him out to the street where the perp threatended to come back and kill him plus other members of his family at a later date, having been wounded by the shop owner already. Upon hearing this, the shop owner fired again, killing the perp. After a full investigation no charges have been or will be filed despite much outcry form a particualr 'segment' of our community including marches and demnstrations etc. I think the results would have been far different if this had occured in So Cal or the far NE parts of this land.

Yes, I remember when he published an article in Handloader to that effect, based on his experience serving as an expert witness in defensive shootings. I think when challenged, Ayoob did find a case reference to back up his claim, but it is a fairly remote possibility, unless indeed you live in a very liberal city. Ayoob did allow, in the same article, if you loaded conservatively - factory bullets, not to exceed factory ballistics, it was less of an issue. Load something "extra-powerful" or "extra-lethal" (upside down hollowbase .38 wadcutters come to mind) it was likely a bigger issue.

I'm confident I can load ammo that works as well or better than factory, assuming I can find the best component bullets (Speer Gold Dots) and new brass. Reloaded brass - no matter how carefully done, has some risk of having nicks or burrs that could cause malfunctions. All that considered I usually have factory ammo in a defensive gun. YMMV

I was watching some ayoob videos last night, he talked about why not fire a warning shot. he went on to say deadly force is deadly force even if fired into the air as a warning shot. that would seem to conflict with the handload argument. the force being used is deadly even if its a hot handload. couldn't the same thing be said about using a 357 sig over a 9mm. you chose a magnum round because its more lethal?? I don't buy it. I also think alot of us would have a hard time duplicating some of the really hp pressured loads in 9mm, underwood and buffalo bore come to mind. if a primer can go bad in a handload it could be bad in a factory load. my concern would be making sure the bullet is seated tight enough, being that I have never loaded pistol before how difficult is this to accomplish??

DITTOS!

I always tell my self that every bullet I fire I now own and anything it hits. I'm responsible for everything my bullet hits.

i remember that line of "nonsense"--but i recall it from around about somewhere back in the mid 1990's--which was pre-internet for most all of us. at the time, i considered it to be rediculous--intuitively, i never bought it. yet that line was continually quoted as gospel. i've handloaded all of my self-defense ammo since the early 1980's.

regarding "premium ammo with respect to the pills only"; about 17 years ago i met a fellow who had worked for speer for about 20 years (at the time when i had met him). he laughed when he told me how much they all liked it when civilians and law enforcement agencies used the gold dot pill. he said they could produce the gold dot plated pill itself for less cost than the ordinary jacketed pills. if what he said was in fact true--it of course demonstrates some wise price point marketing strategy, as the taxpayer ultimately picks up the tab.

of course factory assembled self defense ammo is a different story, as there are nickle cases in some, better packaging, likely tighter qc control/inpection, etc., yet the gold dot pill would afford a better margin in the end product--if that statement of his was factually correct...

besides putting a really good taper crimp on a cartridge for an autopistol, take out the expander plug die, and machine it down so it is at least .005" smaller than your bullet diameter. Say .350 or less for a 9mm. If for some reason you are spraying lube on your cases before sizing, then tumble them or otherwise clean them after sizing, so the insides of the necks are very clean & dry. Those two steps, along with the frim crimp, will keep your bullets tight in the case.

I also like to use the Redding Handgun competition seating die, to seat bullets absolutely straight, but that's more of an accuracy thing than function. I also crimp last, in a final operation, separate from seating.

And he's done it well enough to garner a career out of it. There's some truth in everything he says but the value and relevance of some of those truths is often skewed. I've seen his career bloom from the early days of writing for LE trade magazines. As I understand it, he started his career writing for LE magazines without ever having served a day as a full-time paid COP - go figure.

I wasn't going to go there........but yeah.

This topic always turns into an Ayoob bash. Here are my feelings about handloads as self-defense ammo: While it is true that nobody has YET has been punished for an otherwise justified shooting, that will be little comfort to the first guy who is. Somebody had to be the first in every court precedent ever set. Remember, no verdict had ever depended on whether gloves fit or not until OJ.

As I said way above, all of this is your choice; from whether to defend yourself or not, with what weapon, with what ammo, to under what circumstances. Every one of those choices has consequences, and you have to accept them when you make each choice.

There's a reason why I like you Rocky, common sense prevails.

+1

I hate the idea of being a test case. Why give a plaintiff's attorney anything extra to argue about?

This is one of those "whatever the market will bare" questions....because they can..and people will buy the stuff, cuz lawyers tell them they "shouldnt use handloads for SD"....

This think it was Jeff Cooper whom once said there is a lawyer attached to every bullet There you have it, lawyers cost money Joking aside. It's a marketing and segmentation strategy. Most people don't care about cost when their hide or possessions am in danger.

I recently tested Underwood ammo, loaded with gold dot, really nice stuff and loaded hot in 10mm, 9x19, 357 45. 10 mm cost about 25$ for a 50 box. Really good stuff. Normally I prefer to load all my ammo.

Great post, RR. I quite agree.

I decided a long time ago not to worry about this. Mas Ayoob has been one of my mentors for a lot of years, and is a good friend besides. Some things he and I don't see eye-to-eye on, such as his belief that the 44 Mag is superior to the 45 Colt...


The liability of using handloaded ammo is another one of those things we disagree on. As it happens, though, I have carried factory ammo in all my defensive guns for more than a decade, but it's not primarily because of liabilty concerns. I just prefer the reliability of factory ammo over even my own carefully handloaded ammo. Nonetheless, if I got into a jam and all I had was one of my hunting handguns and a pouch full of hunting handloads, that'd do to ride the river with...

It's not only the PA you have to worry about. It's the dead victim's family who sues in civil court. And there's the rub.

I'm a corporate and tax attorney, not a criminal law attorney...though sometimes I'm not sure about that. And while I am not rendering legal advice here and there is no attorney client relationship, I do know this about litigation ...don't give the other side any potential argument, whether its valid or not.

Standard of proof and jury instructions in a civil case are wildly different that in criminal. A good shoot might protect you from criminal liability, but get into a civil suit and all bets are off. See, for an example of the difference in potential outcomes, O.J. Simpson. He wasn't guilty of murder, but was found liable for wrongful death.

Your shoot may be good criminally, but civilly you might have intended to do too much damage. Civil juries (particularly urban) may sleep through the expert testimony and you'll have to convince them your reloading practices were up to standards.

Do you really want to go through the expense of explaining to a jury how reloading works, that reloads are no more "dangerous" than factory ammo, and that you followed all the proper procedures (and this last item is going to be hard to prove)? That's the bottom line. You may still even get off civilly, but you added ten grand to your civil defense costs with the expert witness fees and additional legal fees.

Urban fable or not, this lawyer only uses factory ammo for self-defense. Compared to your reloads, a good factory JHP will drop the bad guy without significant increased risk to the safety of you or your family. It will do the job without incurring needless expense at both the civil and criminal trial. Don't give those that would take your money any arguments that, if successful, can only cut in their favor, and, if unsuccesful, cost you a lot of money in fees. That is a lose/lose situation for you. Use factory ammo for self-defense.

Bullchit.

How many civil cases can you cite where the above happened?

All I'm saying is don't even give the other side the argument.

As for the cases I handle, I see businesses do a lot of dumb things to give specious arguments to the other side which cost them money to rebut, sometimes lots of it. I can cite no gun cases either way. I would be most interested if anyone can direct me to a civil gun case where reloaded ammo was carried and used and what the outcome was.

Again, remember, my point is not just that a civil defendant might not prevail. Either way, it will cost extra money, especially in an urban courtroom.