Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only Safeties: 2-position vs 3-position?

I am not deliberately trying to start a raging argument. I understand that a 3-position side-swing safety is considered the gold standard. But I am wondering what to do about a rifle I am have.

I'm wanting to get into a .375 H&H at a "moderate" expense. Toward that end, I've gotten a used Whitworth Express Rifle. So far, I've had the barrel cut and recrowned at 22" and had a NECG banded front sight installed. Now I'm thinking about next steps.

This rifle has had the original trigger replaced with a Timney that has the side safety. It works very well. If I replace this with an Alaskan Arms trigger (old Winchester Model 70 type), and 3-position safety, I'm looking at about $500 in parts plus installation charges (I can probably do the trigger, but not the safety). So I'm thinking hard about whether to do this or not.

I own a lot of other rifles, and almost all of them have 2-position safeties, including Remingtons, Sakos, Colt Sauers, and customs by the Biesens. The only 3-position safeties are on my Model 70's. I've never had a problem with any of the former group, nor do I leave them home because of the way they function.

That Timney side safety would be quick to use. I know it doesn't lock the firing pin, nor does it allow unloading on "safe."

I understand only I can decide, but wonder what others might think?

While I prefer the 3-position M-70 OR the FN "crowbar" safety there is nothing wrong with the Timney side safety.
Another option would be a two position Wisner safety. (The one that uses a "military sleeve which is then machined to accept the two position lever")

That and the FN crowbar should be much less expensive than having a 3-position fitted.

Something else to keep in mind is the "notch" in the stock for the existing safety that you will have to deal with if you change it.

To stay with your original "moderate price", leave it as is.

DF

Jkob does a safety for a bit over $100. Gentry will install one of their safeties for $250. So there are options less than $500. But there really is no functional liability to the safety on the Timney.

Thanks for the replies, gents. This rifle disease can certainly make me obsess! I kind of "want" to put a 3-position safety on this Whitworth, but then I get to thinking about all my other rifles with 2-position safeties that don't worry me. Weird, I know.

I'm planning to have the stock refinished, so would want a piece of walnut that matches as well as possible fitted to the gap. I'm sure you would see it if you looked, but it probably would not be obvious.

Using one of Jim Kobe's side-swing safeties is an option, but they are also 2-position. Jim put one on a Swede for me several years ago and it works perfectly. (Jim is who cut the barrel and installed the banded front sight on the Whitworth.)

I was thinking that if I go to the expense of a 3-position side safety, I would swap out the trigger for one of the new ones from Alaska Arms that lists for $220, so that is how I got to about $500 in parts. I could just use a Timney without safety for a lot less, or perhaps the safety mechanism on the trigger I have can be removed and the trigger is still functional.

Decisions!

I think it all lies with personal preference mainly. I like both though. They each fill their own niche.

Sorry for not helping... LOL

You're are boxing yourself into a corner. First, you say you want this to be a modest cost project. Now you are talking $500 in mods and a stock refinish. These will surely come close to doubling what you have into the gun.

If you want a Win 70 style safety, and a Win 70 style trigger, you know the cheapest route is a Win 70. I think you could find a push feed era M70 for a good value, because the market under-values them. I think the Win 70 is a great choice for big cartridges like the 375 H&H; the two times I have been to Africa, I have taken only M70s.

In terms of 2- v 3-position safeties, the key issues for me are 1) is it large enough to be readily taken off safety quickly and 2) does it block the firing pin instead of just the sear? The little low side safety on the commercial M98s like your Whitworth are neither. I don't really need the center position of a 3-position safety all that much, although I certainly use it.

But I understand the appeal of making mods to a M98, having done one in the past, and having two more in process. The tradition of a M98, combined with the H&H, is compelling. Just don't fool yourself into thinking that it is a low cost proposition.

utah708,

Thanks for your additional reply. I understand what you are saying. I guess "moderate expense" is too relative a term, and was a poor choice on my part. I know I could have saved money just by buying a new Winchester or CZ. I expect to spend a good bit more than that, but less than a full-blown custom, by the time I am done. But it will be exactly what I want (if I ever decide. I'm actually pretty close.)

I got what I think is a good deal on the Whitworth, at $625. For the work I've had done, plus another take-off stock that is in better shape and has much more figure than the stock that came with the rifle, I'm into this for about another $425. So I'm at $1050 and have a very serviceable rifle. I'd definitely like to have the forend shortened a tad, the plastic tip replaced with ebony, ebony inlays over the crossbolt, and the stock refinished. I know that will cost for these aesthetic improvements. Then I'm foolishly agonizing over what to do about the trigger and safety.

The Whitworth as modified comes in at 9-1/2 pounds with a 3X Leupold in Talley quick detachable mounts, hitting my target weight for a rifle in this cartridge.

I appreciate your thoughts.

And that is a beautiful, classy rifle!

Sounds like another conundrum encountered when we want to make a Mauser like a M70....we run into these cost/benefit predicaments...having BTDT,this is the reason I look longingly at Mausers these days,put them down,and buy a M70 instead.Unless of course someone else has already spent the chedda in the right areas and I'm buying a properly assembled rifle, used.

But the OP is into this already,and a reasonable,responsible person would worry about the cost and leave it "as is".....but rifle nutz are not reasonable people and Woodsie will not rest until the rifle is exactly as he likes it

I would worry about the mechanics before the aesthetic stuff;get the Alaskan trigger and the 3 position safety.....then play with the stock later is how I would roll.

As Utah alludes to, a "perfect" 375H&H never comes inexpensively.A sophisticated guy like Woodsie will not be happy until it fits his version of "perfect".

Bob,

You make some excellent points, not the least of which is the implication that this is not entirely about money. The cost is a consideration, but not the whole story or I would have bought "new."

Al I know it isn't all about the money.... after a few years I couldn't tell you what a certain feature cost me at the time,especially if the rifle becomes a favorite and gives years of good service.

Yeah, Bob. A Loony should never have to explain, especially to a pack of fellow Loonies...

DF

DF: This place is like an insane asylum...EVERYBODY's crazy here...

We ALL understand exactly what's going through Al's mind.

Bob,

You could be right!

It is all true. I am building a 9.3x62 on a Mauser because there are things not right on the 35 Whelen shown in the photos. No possible rationale--just because.

I'm not Bob, but I can deffinately relate. I wanted a pre 64 model 70 in 375 H&H and I couldn't afford to buy an all original rifle so I had one put together for nearly 1/3 the price of an "all original". I could have also saved myself even more by buying a new SC made by FN model 70 for $1,000.00. Sometimes it's not exactly about money, but what makes you happy. I'd say build it exactly how you want it and enjoy the hell out of it.....Nothing wrong with a good whitworth. One of my good pre 64 lovin buddies carried his whitworth (375 H&H) around every year when it came time for elk hunting and left his pre 64's at home. I actually saw that whitworth today when I was at his shop. Back to the 2 position or 3, I've used both and started out on a sporterized m1917 which had the 2 position safety with a timney trigger and I was totally content with it. It's your rifle though, make it how you want it......

Damn straight there's something wrong with that 35 whelen. For 1 it's not a 9.3x62 and for another the bolt is on the wrong side. Man, how do you work that thing that way?????

Turn it upside down, which explains why the controlled feed is important.

....Good one . That's why I always have problems with those dang rem 700's...The cartridges just keep falling out

I'm a CRF fan.....I fall down a lot.