Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa Hunting over a water hole

Do animals shot out of a blind, over a water hole qualify for SCI? I read someplace where any animal shot over a water hole (in Africa) does not qualify for SCI. It doesn't seem very sporting either. but thats another call, I guess.
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<br>Don

How is that any different then shooting a deer out of a planted food lot while in a tree stand or "shooting box"? I agree not much sport in it with a rifle, pick up a bow and it's a whole new challenge.
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<br>Pop & Young and Boone & Crockett have no problem with it, doubt if SCI would.

Gee Don,
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<br>Sounds pretty funny coming from a guy who takes great pride in hunting from an elevated, carpeted stand with shooting rests and heat. And shooting over cleared fields with unlimited fields of fire, yet.
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<br>Once again, you show how little you know about what you are talking about, but then again what's new?- Sheister

As usual, you lack knowledge of what you are talking about, but we have all come to expect that from you. You add nothing of value to any post, but merely sarcasm. It must be boring being you.
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<br>No carpeting or heat in my stand. Had you comprehended what you read you would know that but you would rather brow beat people versus adding input of value.
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<br>Since you didn't answer the question asked I will disregard your "poor" response.
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<br>It takes very little skill to shoot any animal at 50 yards or less, sitting in a blind, looking over a water hole. Thats "Baiting", pure and simple.
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<br>If you care to respond to the question, please do so.
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<br>Have you, yourself hunted over a water hole in Africa? Perhaps you are sensitive to the question because it hit home.
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<br>Don
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<br>P.S. Learn to add something with possitive input versus being such a negative person.

Well, I wonder where I fit into this. If hunting over a waterhole is bad, then is hunting over a feeding area bad? Is hunting in a bedding area bad? Is hunting along a travel corridor bad? Is hunting from a blind overlooking a field bad? If so, just where the dickens do you hunt, along the highway?
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<br>I hunt from an elevated, carpeted, heated, roof over our heads, gun barrels out the windows blind. Is that fair-chase? Is slipping through the woods, stalking a deer, having him bolt and shooting him in the a$$ fair-chase?
<br>Is being in the blind with your kids, watching a bobcat slink past at sunrise, having 17 brilliantly red cardinals flitting around within 20 feet of their noses, and watching as does, fawns and bucks mill about in a picked corn field for over an hour fair-chase?
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<br>I cherish the time that I spend with my kids. They enjoy seeing undisturbed wildlife. Is that bad? Unethical?
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<br>We are on the same team here, aren't we boys?
<br>Difficult to judge how someone else does or sees things from only the words that are printed out here. I have opinions, but that is all they are.
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<br>Sorry not answering your post. Don't take much skill to shoot an animal at 50 yards from a blind???
<br>I dunno, I think that it would take a bunch. Most of the time they are either 47 or 52 yards away from me. Getting them right at 50, now that's a trick.
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<br>Each has to develope their shooting prowess as they see fit. Bowhunters usually choose their weapons because they are 50 yard weapons. They like to be able to see the eyelashes on their game. I wonder how much skill they think it would take for someone shooting from a cold, barefloored blind to take a buck at a touch over a quartermile with a high-dollar custom rifle that utilizes a bullet at something over 3600 fps?
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Bill,
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<br>Using a bow and arrow at 50 yards is a challenge. Using a rifle, sitting in a blind, overlooking a water hole in Africa - I would say, not much of a challenge at all.
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<br>I was questioning if hunting (with a rifle) over a water hole in Africa qualifies the animals for SCI. Sorry for not making that more clear.
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<br>I do sit in an elevated stand watching over a field for woodchuck and deer hunting - some of the time. The fields I watch are "not" baited in any way - baiting in PA is illegal and I abide by the hunting regs in whatever state I am hunting.
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<br>You did make some valid and interesting points and I thank you for your input.
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<br>Hopefully somebody will know the answer to my question and respond.
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<br>Have a good one,
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<br>Don
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Don,
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<br>Game taken while drinking at waterholes, feeding in agricultural fields, resting under trees, hiding at the bottom of canyons, cooling off on the top of mountains, feeding on salmon in a river, or walking along the beach ALL qualify for entry into the SCI Record Book IF they meet the minimum score requirements and are taken in accordance with local game regulations by an SCI Member in good standing.
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<br>While I have never done so, I don't see anything particularly unsporting about hunting over a waterhole. If it's sporting for a bowhunter, it's sporting for a gun hunter. The tool selected can only affect the difficulty of taking the game, not sportsmanship.
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<br>Do you feel hunting with a rifle is somehow unsporting?
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<br>George
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Guess there's not enough controversy brewing on the Long Range Hunting portion of this board.
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<br>That of course is the place to be for ethical hunters, just in case anyone has forgotten.
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<br>Try and leave'em alone, and they gotta stir the pot somewhere else...

Excuse my "French" but this thread is pure Bullshit!
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<br>Shooting deer (in America) out of an elevated stand is fine but shooting African game from a water hole is unethical????
<br>I don't buy it......

James, my sentiments exactly, even if I didn't do a good enough job of conveying it.- Sheister

Hunting water holes, in Africs, beats the heck out of walking for miles and miles through rough terrain and rocks in the hot sun.
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<br>It is VERY productive.
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<br>But it will pucker your butt, a lot, when a pride, or herd, or group of the wrong types comes in and you find yourself very up close or surrounded. Or some of them start to argue and joust.
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<br>Bill Tibbe

I was surfing the web and ran across this info: This info is the base for my question.
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<br>Safari Club International Africa Chapter - Code of Conduct
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<br>Hunting to take place according to the principles of fair chase.
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<br>Abide by relevant laws and other legal requirements and recognized codes of conduct.
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<br>Enhance by action the survival of wildlife populations, protection of biodiversity and promotion of sustainable utilization.
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<br>Ensure humane practices in all wildlife utilization.
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<br>Use of proper hunting methods and appropriate equipment.
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<br>Engage at all times in fair and honest practices.
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<br>Educate others about the benefits of sustainable use, conservation, proper procedures and the ethics of hunting.
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<br>Recognition of the needs of indigenous communities relating to the utilization of sustainable natural resources.
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<br>Safari Club International FAIR CHASE DEFINITION
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<br>Every sport hunter shall pursue an animal only by engaging in fair chase of the quarry. Fair chase is defined as pursuit of a free roaming animal or enclosed roaming animal possessed of the natural behavioral inclination to escape from the hunter and be fully free to do so.
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<br>Said animal is to be hunted without artificial light source, not from a motorized mode of transportation and in an area that does not by its nature concentrate animals for a specific purpose or at a specific time, such as at a waterhole, salt lick or feeding station.
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<br>(The above listing of the word "waterhole" is the base for my question) no plot, just a simple question.
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<br>No ethical hunter while sport hunting shall take female animals with dependent young. A sport-hunted animal should exist as a naturally interacting member of a wild sustainable population located in an area large enough for it to breed and forage or hunt freely. Sport-hunted animals should be sustained within a natural state of balance between forage, predators and prey.
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<br>The question doesn't pertain to me or any single individual. I was merely trying to obtain resonable anwers.
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<br>I have seen videos and have heard of people that have killed animals in Africa of a waterhole (with a rifle) and after reading the above info was curious.
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<br>Simple
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<br>Don

Don,
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<br> If there ever was a simple question with you, I might be inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt. But you simply can't resist making a taunt out of it by your addition of "it doesn't seem very sporting, either".
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<br>I suppose asking you to ask a simple question and resist your urges to make it more would be asking too much?- Sheister

Again, you add nothing of value and as usual we have all come to expect that from you.
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<br>To me, hunting over a waterhole, with a rifle, at 50 yards, in a blind isn't sporting. We all have varying differences on what we consider sporting and we all have that right. The fact that I sometimes sit in my elevated stand, watching over a field and kill a deer at 400 plus yards is not the issue, but you see a comparison. I don't.
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<br>It takes more "skill" to cleanly kill a deer at 400 plus yards then it does to kill an animal at 50 yards over a waterhole. Hopefully even you, with your obvious limited abilities can see that.
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<br>I don't hunt over bait in my home state. The question at hand is a judgement call as to "if" the waterhole is baiting and according to the info I listed above by SCI it is baiting.
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<br>Should you decide to respond to that question I would welcome your input but you seem more intent on causing trouble then intelligently discussing an issue.
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<br>Don

I guess I keep getting curious about who all the "we" are that you are referring to? Hard for you to get a post in that doesn't push somebody's buttons in some fashion, I guess.
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<br>The fact of the matter is, since you don't hunt over waterholes yourself (and I seldom do), you aren't talking from experience.
<br>A couple of things come to mind. First, you imply that more "skill" is required to shoot a game animal from 400 yards from a blind with a rest, etc... than shooting from 50 yards at a waterhole. This is hyperbole at best. The 2 situations have vastly different dynamics, especially in Africa where a waterhole is a very dangerous place for game animals and their wary attitude is reflected in their actions. No animal walking into a field at 400 yards here is going to be very wary or alert to the presence of predators or hunters.
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<br>Another thing is that animals that gather at waterholes usually gather in large groups, the largest males usually allowing the smaller females to approach the area first to sound the alert for predators or other "flight impetus". This makes for very difficult shooting conditions because of the sheer numbers and proximity of other game. Many times, even with a good game animal at a waterhole, a shot won't be taken because of the danger of an another animal being wounded. This is simple "African hunting 101", if you wound and animal, you pay for it- sometimes in more ways than one. Besides, all those older game animals didn't get old and big by being stupid. Most of the best animals won't be just nonchalantly showing up at a waterhole at any old time. As in the US, most game animals become nocturnal when heavily pressured by predators and hunters.
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<br>Another thing to consider. Pre-built hunting stands (or "hides") are not all that common in African hunting. Mostly, if hunting a waterhole or other location where a "hide" is being used, it is a simple hole dug in the ground with a place to sit with just your head above ground. Or you might be placed on a simple platform of small proportions in a tree nearby, or you would simply sit behind a couple of small bushes very quietly and still and watch a waterhole. I've done 2 of these three (no tree stands, yet) and I find it very stressful. I simply can't sit still long enough to make this an effective method, even though we saw much game the times we tried it. I was only able to harvest a Black backed Jackal that came to a varmint caller in our several periods watching waterholes.
<br>Also, because of the heavy bush in Africa, most "hides" can't be placed much more than 50 yards from a waterhole or there would no advantage at all. Also, most waterholes I saw were somewhat or largely obscured by the amount of brush that grew right down and sometimes into the water, giving substantial cover to much of the game that came to the waterhole.
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<br>Also, if you read the the SCI regs carefully, it states a condition "that tends to congregate animals". There is so much water on many farms and concessions most of the time, that only small populations of game visit specific waterholes at any time. It is more a matter of opportunity for most game if in their wanderings, they come upon a particular waterhole and use it. Only during severe drought conditions do waterholes congregate large groups of animals in any one place, and in that case I doubt most hunters or PH's would be hunting that particular place, as by that time the trophy quality and conditions would be counterproductive to a quality hunt.
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<br>All in all, I've hunted in the US over waterholes at times and in Africa and I see no real advantages to it other than a chance to take a break from walking for awhile and let my feet rest and heal up. As far as game goes, here and in Africa, I see much more in other methods of hunting- game trails, spot and stalk, calling, and pushing game out with drivers, than I could hope to see when hunting over waterholes.
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<br>In all honesty Don, I believe your biases are fueled by the method of hunting you are used to as most of us are, and you don't completely understand the dynamics involved in some different types of hunting until you have tried it. You can take that as a criticism if you so choose, but it isn't intended in that manner.- Sheister

I'm not really interested in dividing up the hunters of the world by talking down to one method or another, or one weapon or another. We are all hunters and should have a bit of respect for one another. Not every man woman and child has the same physical ability to hunt in the most grueling of styles. So I am not going to debate the pros and cons of such a matter. Each person should decide for themselves which they prefer to be ethical and spoting under the laws of the area they are hunting. Whether or not SCI, B&C, or P&Y designate it as "ethical" is of no real concern to me. All of them allow shooting a treed animal with a pack of dogs at the base of the tree where it's 100% trapped and will be shot. With that as a basis for their "ethics" I see no reason to think they are the holy grail of hunting policy or ethics.
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<br>I would like to make one definition comment regarding "waterholes" I can only speak of Africa on this definition as it is where I work. A Water hole Is refering to a "borehole" where a type of well has been dug for the exclusive purpose of watering stock or game. Generally a small pool of water or a concrete tank.
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<br>A "pan" is Afrikaans for a Pond or small lake. With that definition I think the hunting over a small water hole or "borehole"specific for watering game, and hunting over a "pan" or in english a pond or Lake is quite a different situation. Unfortunatly Americans tend to use the term waterhole for all types of water sources. There are some animals I would challange anyone to tell me they have hunted away from water. A few are obvious but many are in or near water all the time. With this situation how does one decide which is "fair chase" or not? One of the biggest game animals alive is only hunted in or very near water, another is considered the most dangerous animal in Africa by many and it to is only hunted in or near water. The Hippo and the crocodile.
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<br>As far as other species, well the bushbuck and waterbuck are always found near water, as is the lechwe.( in the USA how about brown bears, coastal black bears, Moose, Cariboo, etc.) My feelings as a Professional hunter which is required by law to follow the rules of the country not the ethics of a "club" are to assist the hunter with any means they feel comfortable with that are legal. Should I have a fitness fanatic show up in camp who wants to walk all day every day, well that is what we will do. If I have a man and wife who want to drive around to spot game before a stalk I can arrange that as well. Or maybe I have a 77 year old man with a replaced knee or pace maker who wants to sit in the bush near a "pan" and watch the game interact and shoot that way. Well we can manage that as well.
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<br>I'm in no position to criticize anyone of those people or their choices. I will not sit in judgment of them or talk them out of how they want to hunt (within the law)because of any ethics I may feel. My job is to give them the hunt of their dreams, not belittle their methods or desires. If the organisations listed in this thread have an ethics issue that is between the hunter and the "club" they belong to. Not me or anyone else on this earth to judge them on.
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<br>As far as archery or firearms and hunting distances, well I guess each has it's place and those who enjoy hunting with each of them. Again the laws don't dictate distance specific weapons. If your shooting long range at game near the quarter mile mark is that actually hunting or shooting? Not for me to criticise anyone choosing to do that. It's quite a feat to accomplish such a shot 100% of the time. When decisions are made as to the distance's hunted do we then need to decide which gun or cartridge is to be used for specific distance? If Archery is OK at 50 yards or less and a supermagnum cartridge is not fair. Then where does the 12 guage with slugs fit in? handguns? the 30/30, muzzleloaders? how many levels of ethics are needed here for each style and weapon type? Not everything looks as simple and clear once the can of worms is opened.
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<br>The 50 yards used in these examples creates a whole lot of problems with the wind or in the case of a stand near any water source is concerned even a light breeze will turn away the game. There were plenty of evenings where we abandoned the idea of hunting near the lakes or ponds because the wind was wrong and there would be no chance of seeing game. With the long distance shooter wind direction is rarely an issue, nor is noise as much of an issue.
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<br>Many times when hunting near water or game crossings you will only see the game when it's under 30-60 yards or less. The bush is so thick in many places the animal is stalking right up to the area with every caution possible. Scratch your nose or rub your eye, yawn, sneeze, clear your throat and the game is over........ you lose. The same situation but at 200 or more yards away is a complete non-issue.
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<br>I think it's fantastic to see a skilled marksman dump an animal at long range. That is a real rush of excitment to me. I also think having game nearly in your lap and haing to make every move with a precise effort so as not to draw attention to yourself and then make the shot is a huge rush as well. There is certainly a big rush of adrenilin when your sitting with the animal of your dreams nearly on top of you, sometimes staring right at you and now you cannot move a muscle or even blink for the whole time they are looking. Then if you can beat them at this game you must now hold onto your nerves and try to raise the gun for a shot.
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<br>It's all a matter of what you like. Choose what makes you happy and move on with it. If your not interested in something then move on and do it another way. Lets face it guys hunting with only a knife to stab a hog think Archery is long range. Archers think Muzzleloaders and handgunners are long range. Those guys think a 30/06 and a 270 are long range. and the list could go on and on. Same with somebody using bait for bears, hounds for lions, or hunting corn fields for deer. Each and everyone of us has an ethics threshold we must live within. And I for one will not divide the ranks by belittling anyone elses style or weapon if it's within the law.

Sheister,
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<br>Well look at that, a response lacking sarcasm, for the most part.
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<br>After reading your response I went back and read it again. Finally, something of value in one of your posts. I welcome your input (on this one post).
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<br>As to if I hunt over a waterhole or not - I don't see how that is at all relevant to the question I had but you are correct, I have never hunted over a waterhole. As to you not seeing many "hides" in Africa. I would "guess" you haven't seen many since you have only hunted with one outfitter in Africa, thus far and perhaps they don't have any such structures or at least not many. I beleive you went to Africa the one time you went in our late spring and I would "guess" there is more water available at that time then, lets says late July or Aug. Would that be a correct assumption?
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<br>I don't recal the month of the year on the TV show I viewed where guys from the USA where hunting over waterholes in Africa but it did remind me of fish in a barrel.
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<br>Yes I shoot deer at longer distances then the "average" hunter, as you know. I take pride in the fact that I practice a "lot" in the off season at extended ranges to be as effective as I can to ensure a clean kill at extended ranges. I beleive there is a lot more skill involved in killing a deer at 400 plus yards then there is killing an animal overlooking a waterhole in Africa at 50 or so yards - with a rifle.
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<br>I agree with you that because there may be a "lot" of animals at the "waterhole" at the same time that there is a greater chance that one of those animals may find you out and spook the rest of them, thats a given. And that deer eating in the field at 400 plus yards has no idea I am in my stand - very true. Even with a rest, bench and so on most "average" hunters lack the skill necessary to cleanly kill a deer at 400 yards - also very true. I don't kill all the deer I kill from that elevated stand - as you are fully aware. I also hunt from the ground, sometimes walking and stalking - which isn't very affective most of the time (around here) since the cover is so thick in the woods. I do know where the deer bed most of the time but that still doesn't mean I can sneak up on them in their beds without being identified - the cover is so thick it is very difficult (at best) to sneak into their bedding area without being detected.
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<br>After all is said and done do you believe that shooting animals over a waterhole, with a rifle, out of a "hide", in Africa should qualify for SCI?
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<br>According to SCI it doesn't.
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<br>Have a good one,
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<br>Don
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<br>P.S. Nice to exchange usefull info with you versus all the bantering.
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Don,
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<br> JJ's post covers the subject much better than I can manage, his experience and background outweigh just about anyone who posts here or elsewhere on the net.
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<br> Yes, I have only hunted the one time in Africa. We hunted many different properties and were able to meet different landowners and see how the different operations were handled. In probably 10 to 15 ranches the different groups of hunters hunted that I was with, we discussed what we had seen over the dinner table each night. Of all these ranches only a couple had elevated stands. The most common hide was a pit type near a pond, lake, river or natural water source.
<br>Of course, as JJ said, this is inconsequential as the hunting method makes very little difference as long as it is ethical, legal, and acceptable to the hunter paying for the hunt. The rest of our opinions really don't matter and SCI really isn't the last word on what is acceptable or not. Even with your posted synopsis of the SCI regulations, there is quite a bit of leeway in how game is taken as regarding acceptance into the record books. Your interpretation may differ than mine- no big deal.
<br>Most of the guys I have hunted with could care less if their game is entered into the record book and are only interested in a great hunt. With JJ, and with most outfitters that post on these boards, that wish seems to be fulfilled and that is really the only important point.
<br>I have no idea if any of my animals would meet the minimum for Rowland Ward or SCI because I simply didn't ask or care. In my limited experience, most hunters don't really care either and the general opinion on other African hunting forums seems to back this opinion up.
<br>I believe that many PH's or outfitters use this scoring as a measuring stick to attract clients, as well they should. At least that is one measuring stick of what your outfitter is offering, but it surely doesn't tell the whole story.
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<br>Let me ask you this- let's say you book a hunt in Africa and your outfitter guarantees you will take all your game fair chase, all will meet Rowland Ward "Gold" status or SCI minimum score, and you won't be hunting over a single waterhole the whole time.
<br>First, how do you suppose they would accomplish this on your hunt?
<br>Second, what would you do if you get there and you find that this is a canned hunt, with recently released game that isn't acclimated to the property, and the property- while huge- is crossfenced into smaller enclosures to hold the different game species in wait for the hunter.
<br>Obviously, these are rhetorical questions, but just a way of indicating that many times what you hear or read about someone isn't always the whole story and the same goes for getting your name in the record book. IMHO, many animals are in the books because no one knows how they were harvested or someone lied to maintain the illusion of fair chase. Who would ever know?
<br>All this quibbling if hunting over a waterhole is ethical or not is nonsense in that context. If it is legal, ethical, and in the hunter's comfort zone- who are we to judge? Like mosty hunters here, probably you included, SCI, B&C, P&Y, and Rowland Ward don't define my hunting ethics or hunting style.
<br>If you do get to Africa to hunt someday, I will be curious how you feel about some of these same questions after you get back. I would also be very curious how you will feel about certain people and outfitters upon your return, having experienced Africa and all that it offers. - Sheister
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Don,
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<br>I'm having trouble finding the definition of fair chase you quoted on Safari Club International's website.
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<br>The South Africa-based Africa Chapter does have its own definition (which you quoted), and it's been the subject of debate on other forums. If their definition were law, it would seriously limit the success of hunting safaris, especially in South Africa.
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<br>In no particular order:
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<br>Most leopards taken on ranches in South Africa and Zimbabwe, (and some lions) are shot over bait AND with the aid of spotlights. (A few are taken by coursing with dogs.)
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<br>Hunting over waterholes is far less common, but during the dry safari season, water sources are a reliable pace to find game. Bowhunters use it most due to the range limitations of their chosen implement and the difficulty of senaking up on game in the bushveld.
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<br>Lots of game is shot from bakkies in the Free State, Cape, and eastern Cape, and we caught a couple of Afrikaners doing it on the ranch we were hunting in Zimbabwe. I don't mean using the hood or fender as a rest, I mean shooting from the seat on the back of the truck.
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<br>Few ranches offering hunting will tolerate large predators (this is especially true in South Africa and Zimbabwe, where livestock and game are cash crops), so humans would be the only predators create any balance between forage and prey.
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<br>Bongo, giant forest hog, and giant eland are often taken at salines in Central Africa. (Bongo are also often hunted with the aid of dogs (as are deer, bear, mountain lions, and hogs in the U.S.).)
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<br>The above is not an indictment; it's just to show that people use different hunting methods than we might be used to (or approve of).
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<br>On safari, YOU'RE the boss. If you don't want to hunt a certain way, you can say so, and a new strategy may be devised. You may not get your game, but that's something you have to accept.
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<br>On your safari(s), were you forced to hunt in a manner you found personally objectionable?
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<br>BTW, SCI deleted the legally-taken entries for black rhino and tigers (jaguars too, if I remember correctly), because those animals may no longer be hunted anywhere legally.
<br>Also, SCI removed all lions taken in South Africa and Namibia due to the questionable/unsavory practices of some outfitters.
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<br>George

George,
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<br>"I'm having trouble finding the definition of fair chase you quoted on Safari Club International's website."
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<br>"The South Africa-based Africa Chapter does have its own definition (which you quoted), and it's been the subject of debate on other forums. If their definition were law, it would seriously limit the success of hunting safaris, especially in South Africa. "
<br>I never said that the quote I made was on SCI's website but it appears that you answered your own question in your second paragraph when you said (which you quoted).
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<br>I am not sure what you were/are fishing for as to a response.
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<br>I didn't make this discussion an "ethical" one. I merely asked a simple question.
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<br>Sheister,
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<br>I would never shoot an animal out of the back of a truck in Africa or here at home (in PA). Here in PA that is illegal.
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<br>It seems there isn't a broad base difference between what any "hunter" considers ethical and what is legal - in Africa. I read all the various methods used to kill animals in Africa and I can't imagine that any laws really exhist when it comes to "methods" used to kill game there. Seems like just about any "method" the hunter desires can be used legally there. Again, I didn't bring up the "ethics" used, I am merely asking if any methods are illegal in Africa.
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<br>As to how a person hunts, thats his/her business as long as it is within the law. Here in PA it is illegal to shoot a game animal in water. I imagine there is some grey area there though as I doubt a mud puddle after a rain storm constitues "in water". I read that to mean in a pond, river or lake. It is also illegal to hunt wild game in any standing crop or to drive deer from a standing crop. I have never shot a deer in a standing crop and never will as long as that is against the law. Hunting over a harvested field is legal and I hunt harvested fields a lot and that is not baiting. It is illegal to shoot an animal from a vehicle (in PA). So when I read where people shoot animals in Africa off the back of a truck, to me, that is not sporting at all. Again, because I abide by the laws of the state I live in and have lived in for my 49 years I have grown used to the laws here. Thats not to say if I hunted in a State or country where those practices are legal, that I wouldn't. I would make a personal judgement call for my hunt at the time. I don't think a judgement on my part would be made so much as to if it is an accepted practice in that state or country, I would rather be more concerned about the safety of it.
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<br>It is correct that each hunter has to decide for himself/herself (within the law) as to what methods they employ while hunting. I have never said otherwise.
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<br>Some good input by a few and it was interesting reading but I still wait for an answer to my original question
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<br>Have a good one,
<br>
<br>Don