4bear, I agree that the IDF General quoted in the DEBKAFILE was off the mark stating the USA is placating. Those of us who monitor the war on terrorism beyond the pop media know we are kicking ass. The IDF knows it too. I think his statements were an attempt to encourage more action on the right and to appease the american left in one swoop. It's obvious to me that the Arab culture needs to be kept entangled in their own guts. Steady as she goes.
"When you begin hunting, you go through 3 stages, you start thinking you know everything, but, of course you know nothing. The second stage is when you realize you don't know anything, the third stage is when you have learned a bit, but realize you will never know it all" Sid Downey Mara Triangle
ExatFromOK writes: "israel felt its national survival was at stake, so they did what they thought they had to to stop the flow of information. You will note they did not sink; they damaged it to the point in which they thought it could no longer transmit. You will also note we did not respond because it would have brought into sharp focus world-wide the mission and activites of that ship."
Note in photograph the extensive damage done by bombing, straffing and torpedos in photo. You don't tropedo a ship just to prevent electronic signals from being received or transmitted.
The Liberty's skipper received the Medal of Honor for his actions in saving his ship. I doubt that would have been the case if it were a "limited attack". I have see the MOH citation. Nowhere does it mention the nationality of the attackers. Interesting.
Paul
Stupidity has its way, while its cousin, evil, runs rampant.
What happened to the USS Liberty by the IDF was no mistake. There are some hard points to make here because both sides had major points of contention, but I'll take a shot. The short story is this. The USS Liberty was a electronic surveillance vessel. It was monitoring Israel's communications and feeding info to the Syrians and Egyptians. Some of this info was not too flattering in terms of Israel's possible courses of action, but the info we were feeding Israel's enemies was also hampered their ability to effectively defeat the invaders. Israel felt its national survival was at stake, so they did what they thought they had to to stop the flow of information. You will note they did not sink; they damaged it to the point in which they thought it could no longer transmit. You will also note we did not respond because it would have brought into sharp focus world-wide the mission and activites of that ship. While the death of US service members infuriates me, I think I would want my country to respond in a like manner if a country was listening to our comms and transmitting our scheme of maneuver and mission endstate to the enemy.
I'm now zipping up my asbestos jump suit............
That's the most ridiculous version I've ever heard of why Israel attacked the USS Liberty, show me verification of that.
ExatFromOK writes: "israel felt its national survival was at stake, so they did what they thought they had to to stop the flow of information. You will note they did not sink; they damaged it to the point in which they thought it could no longer transmit. You will also note we did not respond because it would have brought into sharp focus world-wide the mission and activites of that ship."
Note in photograph the extensive damage done by bombing, straffing and torpedos in photo. You don't tropedo a ship just to prevent electronic signals from being received or transmitted.
Most people thing a torpedo hits a ship and explodes. Not true.
A torpedo travels under a ship and as soon as the magnetic signature decreases, that is it just passes under the ship it detonates. This creates a high pressure bubble that raised the ship in the water then lets it fall back, one of those two actions breaks the back of the ship, that breaks the keel and the ship sinks.
If the Liberty had been successfully torpedoed it would have gone down. No DC could have saved it.
The USS Liberty was a electronic surveillance vessel. It was monitoring Israel's communications and feeding info to the Syrians and Egyptians.
The fact is that the Liberty picked up Israeli radio traffic that an Israeli army unit had massacred 300 Egyptian POW's. A US Navy surveillance plane heard the Israelis confirm that they had sighted an American ship. The Israelis, wanting to cover up the massacre, for fear of world opinion turning against them, acted rashly. Americans need to grow up and realize that nations do not have friends, they have allies, and alliances can be a very fleeting and amorphous thing.
The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary. --H. L. Mencken
The Liberty's skipper received the Medal of Honor for his actions in saving his ship. I doubt that would have been the case if it were a "limited attack". I have see the MOH citation. Nowhere does it mention the nationality of the attackers. Interesting.
Paul
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The Israelis could have done anything they wanted to this ship. It could not defend itself. They surveyed the damage at close range in an observation helicoptor. If they wanted, they could have put her at the bottom of the sea.
"There are no dangerous weapons. There are only dangerous men." - Robert Heinlein
The Israelis could have done anything they wanted to this ship. It could not defend itself. They surveyed the damage at close range in an observation helicoptor. If they wanted, they could have put her at the bottom of the sea.
Agreed, Expat. The only thing you said that I take issue with is regarding the U.S. sharing the intel with the Egyptians and the Syrians. That DID NOT happen and the Israeli's knew that.
Agreed, Expat. The only thing you said that I take issue with is regarding the U.S. sharing the intel with the Egyptians and the Syrians. That DID NOT happen and the Israeli's knew that.
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I'm not taking sides in this issue in regard to Israel, but I will just say that there are a lot of careerists in our government that are absolute enemies of Israel.
Expat
"There are no dangerous weapons. There are only dangerous men." - Robert Heinlein
I have known many Navy service members over the decades. Every one of them has been patriotic and served our country with honor and well-deserved pride. Every one has sworn to protect this country, with their life, if necessary. I have the highest respect for them. (Even though I went Army. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )
To believe the conspiracy theories, it seems to me that one has to accept that the United States Navy has been corrupt and lying about it for over 45 years, And doing so to protect a foreign power. I am sorry, but I must respectfully say that I just don't see that argument.
I sometimes wonder if most of the world doesn't just expect Israel to take it all out -- destroy the vexing site(s) and then be portrayed once again as a pariah for having done what others dare not do (but sorta wish they could).
Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. -- Daniel Webster
No one on the Liberty acted dishonorably. Those Sailors were executing the mission they were given by the officers appointed over them. They did an incredible job keeping that ship afloat.
HOOAH
"There are no dangerous weapons. There are only dangerous men." - Robert Heinlein
Both the Navy sailors and the civilians on board the Liberty acted honorably and courageously; they each did their duty and the damage control was excellent.
Earlier, someone wrote that torpedoes are designed to run beneath the ship and then explode under the keel, creating a large void, breaking the keel (and therefore the ship) in two. This would obviously sink it. True, modern torpedoes, such as the Navy�s Mk. 48 and the British Tigerfish, are designed to do just this. Earlier technology torpedoes, which were used by the Israelis against the Liberty, are designed to explode on impact and blow a hole in the ship�s side.
Fortunately, Israel did not have Mk. 48�s when they attacked the Liberty.
Spent a lot of time working on Tridents. MK 48 is the least of what you find there. When I first started working on Tridents there would be 288 warheads abord.
