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Re: No use for Berger VLD's bigsqueeze #7127077 11/30/12
Joined: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,116 Sherwood, OR Killertraylor Campfire Tracker
Killertraylor Campfire Tracker Joined: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,116 Sherwood, OR	That was actually a Montana Muley with a squirely rack. I just checked and I was pushing those 140 VLD's at 3410 fps which means impact speed was something around 3300 at 110 yards. I agree with both of you - faster than prudent. They shot so well on paper (and it was the load McWhorter had developed for the rifle) that I figured WTF. Looks like you guys have a pile of critters that suffered better results. John, what has been your experience with meat damage at reasonable impact velocities?

GB1

Re: No use for Berger VLD's Killertraylor #7127087 11/30/12
Joined: Jul 2012 Posts: 82 R rusty815 Campfire Greenhorn
rusty815 Campfire Greenhorn R Joined: Jul 2012 Posts: 82	I shoot Berger 230gr. Hybrids out of my 300WSM at a bit over 2700fps, and a month ago on a deer hunt in Utah, this round killed two deer, both dropped on the spot. They were target rounds, but they performed exactly as the hunting rounds do, no exploded shoulder, but a pretty large exit cavity. I've always been that you don't want the impact velocity to be above 3200fps, so I usually keep my velocities below that, I rarely use a load with over 3000fps in any of my rifles just to keep it safe. �A free people ought to be armed.� Weatherby Vanguard 7mm-08Rem Remington 721 30-06 Ruger M77 MK2 270Win Savage Model 16 LH 300WSM Savage Model 110 LH 243Win/284Win On the way: Stag Model 7HL

Re: No use for Berger VLD's bigsqueeze #7127089 11/30/12
Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 10,817 So Cal B bigsqueeze Campfire Outfitter
bigsqueeze Campfire Outfitter B Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 10,817 So Cal	Originally Posted by bigsqueeze Killertraylor...........Forgot to ask. What was your best guess for bullet impact speed on that WT?? ...........Well just for the heck of it, I went over to the reloadersnest site to find any 6.5 Weatherby Mag loading data. They show one submitted loading for a 264/300 Wby Mag. I assume that your 6.5 Bee Mag is based on a necked down 300 Wby casing? Samo samo? A 140 gr SMK @ 3470 MV. If your VLDs MV was at or near that speed, then the impact speed @ 110 yards on your WT would have been about what? Guessing without using an external ballistics calculator maybe around 3300 to 3350 fps? If so and in reading Burns last post, that may explain such a huge entrance wound. Maybe too much VLD impact speed causing the blow up. 28 Nosler,,,,300WSM,,,,338-378 Wby,,,,375 Ruger

Re: No use for Berger VLD's Killertraylor #7127097 11/30/12
Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 10,817 So Cal B bigsqueeze Campfire Outfitter
bigsqueeze Campfire Outfitter B Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 10,817 So Cal	Originally Posted by Killertraylor That was actually a Montana Muley with a squirely rack. I just checked and I was pushing those 140 VLD's at 3410 fps which means impact speed was something around 3300 at 110 yards. I agree with both of you - faster than prudent. They shot so well on paper (and it was the load McWhorter had developed for the rifle) that I figured WTF. Looks like you guys have a pile of critters that suffered better results. John, what has been your experience with meat damage at reasonable impact velocities? ........AHHH HA! Busted!!! ....I thought so. That`s why I went to check the reloadersnest site for some 6.5 Bee Mag data. 3410 fps MV ay? Guessing about a 3275-3325 fps impact then. Looks like we found the probable cause of the blow up. Try slowing dem VLDs down a little next time... 28 Nosler,,,,300WSM,,,,338-378 Wby,,,,375 Ruger

Re: No use for Berger VLD's aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah #7127315 11/30/12
Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 10,102 Knoxville,TN S slg888 Campfire Outfitter
slg888 Campfire Outfitter S Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 10,102 Knoxville,TN	Originally Posted by aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah the forum wouldn't let me sign in for nearly an hour cause all the user names were taken so in frustration I typed aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah and it worked! aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, don't be frustrated sometimes 24hr site works slow. BTW, your user name is fine...... Actually it's one of my wife's favorite words. Originally Posted by aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah I stopped counting big game kills a decade ago at 140 assorted big game. Nice aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, post up your pictures! Look forward to seeing them.

IC B2

Re: No use for Berger VLD's slg888 #7127322 11/30/12
Joined: May 2003 Posts: 16,971 Likes: 1 Eastern KS S Spotshooter Campfire Ranger
Spotshooter Campfire Ranger S Joined: May 2003 Posts: 16,971 Likes: 1 Eastern KS	Show pictures of shoulders please Spot shooter www.prairiefireprecision.com

Re: No use for Berger VLD's bigsqueeze #7127561 11/30/12
Joined: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,116 Sherwood, OR Killertraylor Campfire Tracker
Killertraylor Campfire Tracker Joined: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,116 Sherwood, OR	Originally Posted by bigsqueeze Try slowing dem VLDs down a little next time... Nah, I just pulled them and inserted Nosler 140 Partitions in their place. Still sub .5MOA and problem solved! I sure like the way the Bergers shot, and I might give them a whirl again in a standard caliber.

Re: No use for Berger VLD's JohnBurns #7127640 11/30/12
Joined: Apr 2001 Posts: 28,277 Bozeman, Montana Mark R Dobrenski Campfire Ranger
Mark R Dobrenski Campfire Ranger Joined: Apr 2001 Posts: 28,277 Bozeman, Montana	Some really nice whitey's there John! Dober "True respect starts with the way you treat others, and it is earned over a lifetime of demonstrating kindness, honor and dignity"....Tony Dungy

Re: No use for Berger VLD's Mark R Dobrenski #7127802 11/30/12
Joined: Nov 2010 Posts: 37,132 Likes: 1 Central Louisiana D Dirtfarmer Campfire 'Bwana
Dirtfarmer Campfire 'Bwana D Joined: Nov 2010 Posts: 37,132 Likes: 1 Central Louisiana	140 VLD's work well at 3,000 fps in a 6.5-284. DF

Re: No use for Berger VLD's Mark R Dobrenski #7127808 11/30/12
Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 342 WI B bassetman Campfire Member
bassetman Campfire Member B Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 342 WI	I'm a Sierra guy, GK or PH, it doesn't really matter. However, I have tried some Berger VLD's in 308 (155) and 30-06 (168). All I can say is that these are wicked bullets. When you shoot a whitetail at 50 yards and get an exit hole the size of a softball... when you see chunks of lung hanging in the brush... you know you're using something wicked.

IC B3

Re: No use for Berger VLD's bassetman #7127867 11/30/12
Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 11,352 Denver 30338 Campfire Outfitter
30338 Campfire Outfitter Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 11,352 Denver	My 140 vlds just plod along with a starting 2870 fps. Don't kick, fly flat enough, and nothing walks away with a remotely good hit. And don't lose hardly any meat. Lot of good pics on this thread, some really awesome bucks. That 105 243 bullet kind of intrigues me. Need to look up oal and twist required to run that.

Re: No use for Berger VLD's bigsqueeze #7128009 11/30/12
Joined: May 2009 Posts: 17,264 Cheyenne, Wy Fotis Campfire Ranger
Fotis Campfire Ranger Joined: May 2009 Posts: 17,264 Cheyenne, Wy	Originally Posted by bigsqueeze Originally Posted by Killertraylor That was actually a Montana Muley with a squirely rack. I just checked and I was pushing those 140 VLD's at 3410 fps which means impact speed was something around 3300 at 110 yards. I agree with both of you - faster than prudent. They shot so well on paper (and it was the load McWhorter had developed for the rifle) that I figured WTF. Looks like you guys have a pile of critters that suffered better results. John, what has been your experience with meat damage at reasonable impact velocities? ........AHHH HA! Busted!!! ....I thought so. That`s why I went to check the reloadersnest site for some 6.5 Bee Mag data. 3410 fps MV ay? Guessing about a 3275-3325 fps impact then. Looks like we found the probable cause of the blow up. Try slowing dem VLDs down a little next time... Or use a premium bullet and do not worry about velocity! That is what I do because I do not know what I will encounter. I.E. my elk kills have been from 15 feet to 778 yards. https://thehandloadinglog.wordpress.com μολὼν λαβέ "Weatherby was too long so I nicknamed it "Bee""

Re: No use for Berger VLD's aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah #7128913 11/30/12
Joined: May 2003 Posts: 23,034 Likes: 6 SW Montana V VarmintGuy Campfire Ranger
VarmintGuy Campfire Ranger V Joined: May 2003 Posts: 23,034 Likes: 6 SW Montana	Aaah: Your first and biggest mistake is shooting any Deer through the shoulders! I could care less about what bullet performance comes from your error. IF, you have time to aim and mishoot a Deer through its shoulders then you have enough time to properly place your bullet! And that proper bullet placement has NOTHING to do with shooting a Deer through its shoulders! PERIOD! Shoot the Deer PROPERLY, through the heart/lungs, and you WILL have a dead Deer quite readily! AND you will not be wasting the wonderful venison meat through bloodshot and bone splatter as when shoulder shot! ON TOP OF THOSE THINGS the enhanced amount of Deer meat you will have after proper bullet placement WILL also taste better - as much of the Deers blood will drain out of the flesh and onto the ground OR into the chest cavity! Ever wonder WHY butchers "bleed" cattle when they are slaughtered - it is to get rid of as much blood as possible from the creatures flesh. This enhances the quality and taste of the meat. Same principal applies to shooting a Deer through the heart/lungs. Shooting a Deer through the shoulders invites a whole host of problems for the "Hunter" - don't do it! Hold into the wind VarmintGuy

Re: No use for Berger VLD's JohnBurns #7129287 11/30/12
Joined: Sep 2010 Posts: 19,179 Southern Arkansas J jwall Campfire Ranger
jwall Campfire Ranger J Joined: Sep 2010 Posts: 19,179 Southern Arkansas	Originally Posted by JohnBurns Well I guess we are all victims of our experiences and here are a few more. The idea that a 130gr VLD will turn on a whiteys shoulder is simply way beyond anything I have seen as the VLD always punches through any bone I have seen in any situation. Must be just freaking lucky that the VLD somehow worked. Maybe the bullet landed in a somewhat vital area??? Sorry to quote ALL the pics but they make my point!! Hey John! - I'll MOVE and be YOUR next door NEIGHBOR. jwall- * 3100 guy* A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!

Re: No use for Berger VLD's FishinHank #7129306 11/30/12
Joined: Sep 2010 Posts: 19,179 Southern Arkansas J jwall Campfire Ranger
jwall Campfire Ranger J Joined: Sep 2010 Posts: 19,179 Southern Arkansas	Originally Posted by FishinHank Originally Posted by Tanner So you recovered them from dead deer? I was wondering the same thing. If so then they did work..... Hank & Tanner - I differ from y'all and others. Just because an animal dies AND you recover it, does NOT mean the bullet performed as it SHOULD. I'm dogmatic about this for MYSELF. I DO NOT hunt bullets for big game that separate core/jacket with ANY frequency. This is just what I demand of a BG bullet. YMMV. jwall- * 3100 guy* A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!

Re: No use for Berger VLD's jwall #7130812 12/01/12
Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 2,098 sc R ricksmith Campfire Regular
ricksmith Campfire Regular R Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 2,098 sc	Hunters will argue about caliber, bullet performance, control round vs push feed, etc. I use what works for me in my hunting situation. For me it has been the 168gr Berger Hunting VLD in several 30/06s, 300WM and 300RUM. I am always concerned with bullet placement and will pass on any iffy shot. Got about 50 whitetails and 20 or so hogs with the Bergers, have not lost any due to the bullet. I place the bullet in one of three places, Head, neck, heart/lung. Never been a shoulder shooter, loose too much meat. Really don't think a premium bullet is necessary to kill whitetails. Another bullet I use for whitetails/hogs in 30cal is the Sierra 165gr BTHP Gameking. But if one wants to use a premium bullet for whitetails/hogs, that is their choice.Rick.

Re: No use for Berger VLD's ricksmith #7130959 12/01/12
Joined: Nov 2007 Posts: 19,722 A wash in the west. 1 17ACKLEYBEE Campfire Ranger
17ACKLEYBEE Campfire Ranger 1 Joined: Nov 2007 Posts: 19,722 A wash in the west.	Originally Posted by ricksmith Hunters will argue about caliber, bullet performance, control round vs push feed, etc. I use what works for me in my hunting situation. For me it has been the 168gr Berger Hunting VLD in several 30/06s, 300WM and 300RUM. I am always concerned with bullet placement and will pass on any iffy shot. Got about 50 whitetails and 20 or so hogs with the Bergers, have not lost any due to the bullet. I place the bullet in one of three places, Head, neck, heart/lung. Never been a shoulder shooter, loose too much meat. Really don't think a premium bullet is necessary to kill whitetails. Another bullet I use for whitetails/hogs in 30cal is the Sierra 165gr BTHP Gameking. But if one wants to use a premium bullet for whitetails/hogs, that is their choice.Rick. Well Rick you make too much sense. But say if you blow both their shoulders up they aren't running off. Hit large bone and you're going to have a mess. But say that takes a lot of thought. Dah! NRA Lifetime Member

Re: No use for Berger VLD's VarmintGuy #7130971 12/01/12
Joined: Dec 2004 Posts: 20,379 The Bozone, Montana Rancho_Loco Campfire Ranger
Rancho_Loco Campfire Ranger Joined: Dec 2004 Posts: 20,379 The Bozone, Montana	Originally Posted by VarmintGuy Blaaablabla. Blablabla! Blablablabla! Blabla. blabla. Blablabablablabla!! Piss into the wind VarmintGuy Originally Posted by captain seafire I replace valve cover gaskets every 50K, if they don't need them sooner...

Re: No use for Berger VLD's VarmintGuy #7131079 12/01/12
Joined: May 2009 Posts: 17,264 Cheyenne, Wy Fotis Campfire Ranger
Fotis Campfire Ranger Joined: May 2009 Posts: 17,264 Cheyenne, Wy	Originally Posted by VarmintGuy Aaah: Your first and biggest mistake is shooting any Deer through the shoulders! I could care less about what bullet performance comes from your error. IF, you have time to aim and mishoot a Deer through its shoulders then you have enough time to properly place your bullet! And that proper bullet placement has NOTHING to do with shooting a Deer through its shoulders! PERIOD! Shoot the Deer PROPERLY, through the heart/lungs, and you WILL have a dead Deer quite readily! AND you will not be wasting the wonderful venison meat through bloodshot and bone splatter as when shoulder shot! ON TOP OF THOSE THINGS the enhanced amount of Deer meat you will have after proper bullet placement WILL also taste better - as much of the Deers blood will drain out of the flesh and onto the ground OR into the chest cavity! Ever wonder WHY butchers "bleed" cattle when they are slaughtered - it is to get rid of as much blood as possible from the creatures flesh. This enhances the quality and taste of the meat. Same principal applies to shooting a Deer through the heart/lungs. Shooting a Deer through the shoulders invites a whole host of problems for the "Hunter" - don't do it! Hold into the wind VarmintGuy Or use a partition or a swift or a barnes X and destroy the shoulders and take the deer home. Nosler users been doing this since 1948. https://thehandloadinglog.wordpress.com μολὼν λαβέ "Weatherby was too long so I nicknamed it "Bee""

Re: No use for Berger VLD's Fotis #7131241 12/01/12
Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 8,643 Ouachita Mtns, AR gunnut308 Campfire Outfitter
gunnut308 Campfire Outfitter Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 8,643 Ouachita Mtns, AR	Originally Posted by VarmintGuy Aaah: Your first and biggest mistake is shooting any Deer through the shoulders! Shoot the Deer PROPERLY, through the heart/lungs, and you WILL have a dead Deer quite readily! VarmintGuy ^^This is good advice for bow hunting^^ Or if your eating varmint shoulders Breaking shoulder bone is king for me. Nothing wrong with poking heart/lungs.

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